Rae and turmel gone to far ?

waldo · February 4, 2012

anyone... who unduly and overtly projects an impartiality should not be in a position to recommend and/or set legislative content/policy/direction... should not be seen to be in a position of impartiality... should not be in a position to act as a formal government/party spokesperson on legal/crime related issues.
Perhaps you can inform us which politicians have demonstrated or at least, attempted to suggest they are impartial in terms of crime.

you can't recognize the difference? The difference between a rational, logical, reasonable, methodical, substantive, fair and without prejudice politician working within Parliament to affect criminal law revision... versus an extreme, rancorous, vigilante, hang-em-high, sound-biter who projects his personal tragedy for influence?

waldo · February 4, 2012

The left killed his daughter?

Ok...why are you on the side of the stupid?

yes, anyone who dares to express concerns for upholding the integrity of Parliamentary process and those that work within it... are leftists... and they "killed his daughter"!

Wild Bill · February 4, 2012

The Senate is a place for sober second thought before going through parliament to enact law.

This Senator, due to horrific family consequences absconded with sober second thought and went for the jugular. I dont think anyone begrudges him his personal viewpoint as respects rapists, but many feel there is no place for that sentiment as a Senator.

Afterall, one cannot let the Fox set rules for the Henhouse.

You may be right, I guess. This Senator obviously is just working from his own viewpoint. He can't be working from mine - I never had a chance to elect him!

Or any other Senator. So while they are having all those sober second thoughts, we can be confident that they are THEIR sober second thoughts! Not ours!

As I said, elitism.

cybercoma · February 4, 2012

The lefts restorative justice was a failure and alot of people have been killed and assaulted by people that should have never been released, yes the left does have blood on it's hands.

Is that why Texas is moving towards that model with much success?

jbg · February 4, 2012

Bet ya didnt think that part through? Really, if the left is forced to assume its non-existent systemic failure (it hasnt been) then rightly the left can gloat because Canadians are safer (which facts show to be true)

One thing is becoming pretty clear...the right has no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the justice system. They merely pull one case out of their backside that is egregious and apply it as the gold standard of the entire system.

One of the major roles of a justice system is to instill confidence and respect. In both our countries that has been a miserable failure on the part of the justice system.

AusKanada · February 4, 2012

Over the remarks by the com senator who said they should leave a rope in certain cells for certain evil people could hang themselves. Well, it may be a little over the top, but the fact that 10 yrs ago his daughter was kidnapped, raped and murdered, they could have said very little about it, but instead tried to score political points by going after him. IMO In this case they stepped over the line, and that will come back to haunt them. It seems the left still hates the victims.

I am glad that Rae and Turmel called out that Tory senator. It is illegal in Canada to execute capital punishment and it is the responsibility of Corrections Canada to ensure the safety of all prisoners, rapists or whatever. This also would seem like cruel or unusual punishment.

I am sad for his loss, truly, but he seems like the political opportunist. He apologized immediately and then backtracked when Tories nationwide supported him...

AusKanada · February 4, 2012

Restorative justice is cheaper, more effective and more practical. In the vast majority of cases, prisoners will be re-integrated into society, which means they will have to be taught how to cope with violent and criminal tendencies and will require basic education and organization skills to gain and retain employment.

Punitive justice systems are far more for the sense of vengeance of the victim than the correction of the perpetrator.

Scotty · February 4, 2012

you can't recognize the difference? The difference between a rational, logical, reasonable, methodical, substantive, fair and without prejudice politician working within Parliament to affect criminal law revision... versus an extreme, rancorous, vigilante, hang-em-high, sound-biter who projects his personal tragedy for influence?

And, of course, the former descrtion is of politicians who agree with your views, and the latter would be people with whom you disagree.

The guy made an off the cuff remark. It wasn't an attempt to formulate policy. Get over it. :rolleyes:

cybercoma · February 4, 2012

And, of course, the former descrtion is of politicians who agree with your views, and the latter would be people with whom you disagree.

The guy made an off the cuff remark. It wasn't an attempt to formulate policy. Get over it.

waldo didn't say that it was an attempt to formulate policy. He said it was insight into the man's mind, how he reasons (or doesn't in this case), and how that might bring into question his ability to "formulate policy" with neutrality and fairness.

Scotty · February 4, 2012

Restorative justice is cheaper, more effective and more practical. In the vast majority of cases, prisoners will be re-integrated into society, which means they will have to be taught how to cope with violent and criminal tendencies and will require basic education and organization skills to gain and retain employment.

Punitive justice systems are far more for the sense of vengeance of the victim than the correction of the perpetrator.

Yeah, this is the old cliche'd belief of the Left that within every rapist-murderer is a good boy who is just misunderstood. All he needs is a little hug, a little finger wagging, and he'll understand that raping and murdering is a 'bad' thing, and will thus avoid doing them. Because, after all, he's really a good boy, and doesn't really want to hurt people. He's just hurting inside!

I'll accept your 'restorative justice' for murderers when they figure out how to restore their victims to life.

Scotty · February 4, 2012

waldo didn't say that it was an attempt to formulate policy. He said it was insight into the man's mind, how he reasons (or doesn't in this case), and how that might bring into question his ability to "formulate policy" with neutrality and fairness.

Waldo seems to believe that 'neutrality' means 'people who agree with Waldo'. I'm not buying it. You can be angry about injustice and still have a sense of justice.

And btw, can I express the irony that so many people who support terminally ill people being allowed to kill themselves, even being assisted in killing themselves, are bug-eyed outraged at the thought of allowing some guy who's in prison for the rest of his life having the same option? It seems to me the same arguments can be made in both cases.

cybercoma · February 4, 2012

Yeah, this is the old cliche'd belief of the Left that within every rapist-murderer is a good boy who is just misunderstood. All he needs is a little hug, a little finger wagging, and he'll understand that raping and murdering is a 'bad' thing, and will thus avoid doing them. Because, after all, he's really a good boy, and doesn't really want to hurt people. He's just hurting inside!

I'll accept your 'restorative justice' for murderers when they figure out how to restore their victims to life.

Nonsense. Your ridiculous hyperbole aside, Texas subscribed to your beliefs about punitive "justice" and found that it was horribly ineffective at reducing crime and cost the state considerably more money. Of course, if your goal isn't to reduce crime as much as possible, in the most affordable way, then perhaps punitive "justice" does meet whatever your goal is.

waldo · February 4, 2012

And, of course, the former descrtion is of politicians who agree with your views, and the latter would be people with whom you disagree.
The guy made an off the cuff remark. It wasn't an attempt to formulate policy. Get over it.

no, the former description was a representation of impartiality... the latter, not so much, hey? I certainty didn't say the actual comment was an attempt to, as you say, "formulate policy" - although it certainly seems to have had the influence factor I suggest... rallying that narrow niche segment that wants to hang-em-high, hey?

AusKanada · February 4, 2012

Yeah, this is the old cliche'd belief of the Left that within every rapist-murderer is a good boy who is just misunderstood. All he needs is a little hug, a little finger wagging, and he'll understand that raping and murdering is a 'bad' thing, and will thus avoid doing them. Because, after all, he's really a good boy, and doesn't really want to hurt people. He's just hurting inside!

I'll accept your 'restorative justice' for murderers when they figure out how to restore their victims to life.

Obviously you did not pay attention to my point: most prisoners will be freed. It's a simple fact, simply slapping them with long sentences even in non-violent crimes (as is the conservative mantra) is a fantastic way to make generations of professional, life-long criminals. Rapists and murderers are a different case, obviously...

You also realize that research into Texas, the U.S. most punitive state or even California, has lead that nation into being filled with prisons they cannot deal with or pay for. Unless you plan on re-introducing the death penalty, I don't actually see how you plan on reforming the vast majority of criminals (thieves, those charged with battery, assault, drug trafficking, etc.), as you cannot lock those one up indefinitely.

Or is that the conservative "solution"??

Scotty · February 4, 2012

Nonsense. Your ridiculous hyperbole aside, Texas subscribed to your beliefs about punitive "justice" and found that it was horribly ineffective at reducing crime and cost the state considerably more money. Of course, if your goal isn't to reduce crime as much as possible, in the most affordable way, then perhaps punitive "justice" does meet whatever your goal is.

There is no sane way to compare the criminal problems of Texas with those in Canada. Texas, like most American states, more than most, in fact, has immense urban slums filled with minorities who have no hope and little education. They are breeding grounds for crime. Anything which fails to address that will, of course, be unsuccessful at lowering crime. Fortunately, we do not have the same situation here.

The continuing insistence by the Left that America and Canada are identical, and that what works or doesn't work there will or will not work here defies logic.

Scotty · February 4, 2012

Obviously you did not pay attention to my point: most prisoners will be freed. It's a simple fact, simply slapping them with long sentences even in non-violent crimes (as is the conservative mantra) is a fantastic way to make generations of professional, life-long criminals. Rapists and murderers are a different case, obviously...

Obviously, and yet this thread is actually discussing rapist-murderers in that his daughter was raped and murdered, and he was not suggesting pickpockets or muggers be given a rope.

By the way, the senator is an opponent of the death penalty.

AusKanada · February 4, 2012

Obviously, and yet this thread is actually discussing rapist-murderers in that his daughter was raped and murdered, and he was not suggesting pickpockets or muggers be given a rope.

By the way, the senator is an opponent of the death penalty.

He surely sounds like a stalwart opponent of the death penalty, suggesting murderers get ropes in their cells.

So what's your solution to murderers after they face their life sentence then? If they are not rehabilitated, if possible in their individual case, then what? Slap all murderers with double life sentences? Give them poison tablets in their cells so we are still "opposing the death penalty"?

cybercoma · February 4, 2012

There is no sane way to compare the criminal problems of Texas with those in Canada. Texas, like most American states, more than most, in fact, has immense urban slums filled with minorities who have no hope and little education. They are breeding grounds for crime. Anything which fails to address that will, of course, be unsuccessful at lowering crime. Fortunately, we do not have the same situation here.

The continuing insistence by the Left that America and Canada are identical, and that what works or doesn't work there will or will not work here defies logic.

The only reason you think there's no way to compare Canada and the US is that it completely discredits everything you have to say about the criminal justice system. As far as societies go, there are very few other countries that are closer than the United States and Canada. There is much more variation within each of our countries than between them. It's ok though. It's quite obvious that you don't want to and never will admit that punitive justice completely failed to reduce crime and actually costs more at the same time. You couldn't have a bigger failure of a program if you tried. And the irony is that it's the same things you would claim about the gun-registration program. It doesn't reduce crime and it costs too much.

Wild Bill · February 4, 2012

Obviously you did not pay attention to my point: most prisoners will be freed. It's a simple fact, simply slapping them with long sentences even in non-violent crimes (as is the conservative mantra) is a fantastic way to make generations of professional, life-long criminals. Rapists and murderers are a different case, obviously...

Well, I'm a Utilitarian. Anything that doesn't really work is just BS, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if its liberal or conservative.

I've quoted your words because it strikes me that you are missing something obvious. Many prisoners are ALREADY professional, life-long criminals!

The popular idea of the average criminal being an innocent who simply went astray and can easily led back to the proper path is just that, an idea. Or more properly, an opinion! Like most opinions, it can be true in some cases and way offbase in others. I have a couple of relatives who have been life-long criminals. Not with violent crime but in things like stealing trucks full of refrigerators or consumer goods, mis-directing deliveries that were supposed to go to department stores and the like. They have been doing such since their teens and are now in their 50's.

They would consider this idea that they are simply wayward innocents to be insulting! They are very intelligent people. It's actually funny at family get-togethers how amiable and likeable they are. The old ladies of the family will say "What a nice boy! Too bad he's a criminal!"

They've told me that they work for organized gangs. The crimelords running them actually pay for dental work! They have been at it for years without being caught and believe it or not, they have one or two elderly former "workers" who they give a modest pension!

I will admit that in some cases your impression may be accurate AusKanada but not in all. I don't even believe that it is right in the majority! I think it is a naive and "pollyanna" view of the situation.

It all boils down to the self-evident fact that it is harder to commit crimes inside a prison than without.

Keepitsimple · February 4, 2012

The only reason you think there's no way to compare Canada and the US is that it completely discredits everything you have to say about the criminal justice system. As far as societies go, there are very few other countries that are closer than the United States and Canada.

What the heck is your point? I really don't understand. The US incarceration rate is 743 per 100,000. Canada's is 117 per 100,000. The US has six times the rate of Canada! There is simply no comparison to how their "justice" system operates. Canadians believe in balance - preventative programs and education - and appropriate sentencing to reflect society's revulsion towards multiple repeat offenders and violent criminals. We're doing fairly well on prevention - but can do better ....but we have become too lax on repeat offenders and violent offenders. It's time to tweak the system a bit to keep that balance.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Keepitsimple

Scotty · February 4, 2012

The only reason you think there's no way to compare Canada and the US is that it completely discredits everything you have to say about the criminal justice system. As far as societies go, there are very few other countries that are closer than the United States and Canada.

You've never actually been to the US, have you? I mean, for more than a weekend as a tourist or shopper.

The people of Texas might speak the same language, but they are soooo different on any number of levels.

Why not compare us to Singapore. They seem to have achieved a far lower crime rate than Texas, or for that matter, Canada ever have or hope to. And they don't do it by being kind and gentle.

.

It's quite obvious that you don't want to and never will admit that punitive justice completely failed to reduce crime

It did? Care to explain why crime fell in the US at the same time as it fell in Canada? And that it fell more.

Oh, but their punitive justice system doesn't work! Only our kind and forgiving system works! :rolleyes:

waldo · February 5, 2012

Nonsense. Your ridiculous hyperbole aside, Texas subscribed to your beliefs about punitive "justice" and found that it was horribly ineffective at reducing crime and cost the state considerably more money. Of course, if your goal isn't to reduce crime as much as possible, in the most affordable way, then perhaps punitive "justice" does meet whatever your goal is.

absolutely...

Texas conservatives reject Harper's crime plan - 'Been there; done that; didn't work,' say Texas crime-fighters

Conservatives in the United States' toughest crime-fighting jurisdiction — Texas — say the Harper government's crime strategy won't work.
These comments are in line with a coalition of experts in Washington, D.C., who attacked the Harper government's omnibus crime package, Bill C-10, in a statement Monday.

"Republican governors and state legislators in such states of Texas, South Carolina, and Ohio are repealing mandatory minimum sentences, increasing opportunities for effective community supervision, and funding drug treatment because they know it will improve public safety and reduce taxpayer costs," said Tracy Velázquez, executive director of the Washington-based Justice Policy Institute.

"If passed, C-10 will take Canadian justice policies 180 degrees in the wrong direction, and Canadian citizens will bear the costs."

waldo · February 5, 2012

What the heck is your point? I really don't understand. The US incarceration rate is 743 per 100,000. Canada's is 117 per 100,000. The US has six times the rate of Canada! There is simply no comparison to how their "justice" system operates. Canadians believe in balance - preventative programs and education - and appropriate sentencing to reflect society's revulsion towards multiple repeat offenders and violent criminals. We're doing fairly well on prevention - but can do better ....but we have become too lax on repeat offenders and violent offenders. It's time to tweak the system a bit to keep that balance.

notwithstanding your past failed MLW history of understanding data/statistics, in this case, you don't even bother to attempt to rationalize the described incarceration rates spread. The described principal reason the U.S. has such a high incarceration rate is... wait for it... mandatory minimum sentences and the overall length of sentencing. You know, those 2 key drivers behind the Harper Conservatives omnibus Bill C-10? So, as you say, "what the heck is your point"?

waldo · February 5, 2012

speaking of the Harper Conservatives omnibus Bill C-10 "Crime Bill"... anyone have those associated costs yet? :lol:

anyone?... anyone?... Bueller?... Harper?

AusKanada · February 5, 2012

speaking of the Harper Conservatives omnibus Bill C-10 "Crime Bill"... anyone have those associated costs yet?

anyone?... anyone?... Bueller?... Harper?

Wait for Quebec and Ontario to come out with an official report, last I heard from their justice departments on CBC's Power and Politics it's roughly 700 million each.