Old age security reform

[scribblet]

I didn't think that we'd heard a firm proposal from the government, everything is speculation, but one can say that the P.M. and the finance minister are looking at the options for making social programs sustainable in the future.

It doesn't matter what he might propose or how much good it might be for the country, it will be trumpeted as dumping on little old ladies sending seniors into poverty - yadda yadda. There are some things best left alone, unless it's some kind of incentive to take the OAS at a later age. It's a lose lose situation for any part that tries to mess with senior's 'entitlements'.

[punked]

I didn't think that we'd heard a firm proposal from the government, everything is speculation, but one can say that the P.M. and the finance minister are looking at the options for making social programs sustainable in the future.

It doesn't matter what he might propose or how much good it might be for the country, it will be trumpeted as dumping on little old ladies sending seniors into poverty - yadda yadda. There are some things best left alone, unless it's some kind of incentive to take the OAS at a later age. It's a lose lose situation for any part that tries to mess with senior's 'entitlements'.

Then they can run an election on their ideas because no one has voted on this new plan no one has heard any details of.

[Smallc]

Punked, people don't vote on everything. It's representative democracy.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Smallc

[cybercoma]

Pinked, people don't vote on everything. It's representative democracy.

Where 39% of the ballots are represented by 54% of the seats.

[Scotty]

My guess is the numbers will end up coming up somewhere in the middle and likely favours the guy waldo quotes at #83 as usually the politicians get it wrong because they are exaggerating to push their agenda.

I don't discount that politicians have an agenda, and so we can't entirely rely on their numbers. However, I don't discount that economists can, too. Economists also have ideological biases - just like politicians. And we need to know who's paying these economists for their opinions.

God knows we saw enough drivel coming from paid economists prior to the near banking collapse, all telling us what how marvelous deregulation and credit default swaps were.

[Scotty]

well... an actual real economist from UBC... or Harper who plays one on teevee!

We know something about Harper's biases. We don't know anything about this anonymous economist from BC. What are his biases?

[Scotty]

I'm not sure why you would consider it a "reward". It's not a ton of money. It's really only meant in conjunction with GIS to keep the elderly from living on the streets.

Thirty eight billion is a ton of money. On an individual basis, you might not think $500 a month or so is a ton of money but I assure you it's a lot for most middle class people, not to mention lower class people.

[punked]

Pinked, people don't vote on everything. It's representative democracy.

But we vote on Major things. Medicare got its vote in the platforms an won, OAS originally got its vote, heck even Harpers crime agenda got a vote. This isn't the appointment of someone to a government agency it is a major change to the country it deserves a vote.

[Smallc]

Where 39% of the ballots are represented by 54% of the seats.

Deal with it.

[Smallc]

But we vote on Major things.

Sometimes, and sometimes not.

[waldo]

I didn't think that we'd heard a firm proposal from the government, everything is speculation, but one can say that the P.M. and the finance minister are looking at the options for making social programs sustainable in the future.

yes, that's right... no firm proposals; just floated musings from an out of country Harper, followed by the ministerial/PMO clown show attempting to quell the masses raised ire with repeated suggestions of the unsustainable nature of OAS. Clearly you've bought into it - surprise! Just who says the OAS is unsustainable? Define it; show the numbers... have a reputable, independent entity review OAS, identify the "gap", speak to timelines, follow the population gains entering and leaving (i.e., deaths). If a government plans to squash an existing social contract with Canadians, we expect, we deserve, more than floated musings and a follow-up clown show - ya think?

[cybercoma]

Deal with it.

That's the kind of arrogance that came back to haunt Chretien.

[punked]

Sometimes, and sometimes not.

Look you can pretend that not asking the people to approve major decisions you have never brought up before even though you have been in power for a long time and we just had an election last year is a fine thing to do. Fact is it isn't. Remember the HST in BC? Seriously it isn't the voters fault the Conservatives just forgot to mention they plan on changing OAS the good news is the PM can call an election whenever he wants present his plan and ask the voters to support it. That is why he can call an election whenever he wants Smallc.

[waldo]

That's the kind of arrogance that came back to haunt Chretien.

"deal with it" - wow! Perhaps "Smallc" has finally found a home... it's been painful to watch him struggle to find a party to settle in with; to flip and flop, to and fro.

[waldo]

We know something about Harper's biases. We don't know anything about this anonymous economist from BC. What are his biases?

he's not "anonymous" - I identified him, by name - he most certainly challenges suggestion that OAS is "unsustainable".

the cv for Kevin Milligan – Department of Economics – University of British Columbia ... quite impressive, wouldn't you say?

[Scotty]

he's not "anonymous" - I identified him, by name - he most certainly challenges suggestion that OAS is "unsustainable".

the cv for Kevin Milligan – Department of Economics – University of British Columbia ... quite impressive, wouldn't you say?

You know, I just watched a documentary this morning called Inside Job. It was about the housing crash. In it, they pointed out how many economists at big universities made most of their money from speaking engagements, and paid studies from the financial industry. These economists had nothing bad to say about the financial industry, of course, nor any of the investment issues which led up to the recession. On the contrary, economists from Stanford to Harvard were all big supporters of the deregulation which led to near catastrophe, and big supporters of everything else the financial industry liked.

So forgive me if I'm not impressed by economists this morning. I bet I could give you the CVs of the economists from Harvard and Stanford and other places and they'd be even more impressive than his. I don't want to know his academic credentials. I want to know what his political sympathies are and who pays him money.

[cybercoma]

Since the economy crashed in 2008, now all of a sudden nothing any economist says ever has any validity? If the people who devote their lives to studying the economy do not have a valid opinion about economic matters, such as OAS, then no one's opinion is valid. Least of which those that are pandering to their base and playing political games with the livelihood of financially struggling senior citizens.

[punked]

Since the economy crashed in 2008, now all of a sudden nothing any economist says ever has any validity? If the people who devote their lives to studying the economy do not have a valid opinion about economic matters, such as OAS, then no one's opinion is valid. Least of which those that are pandering to their base and playing political games with the livelihood of financially struggling senior citizens.

How dare you use logical while someone is trying to pretend to be smarter an know more then someone who has spent their loves studying a problem.

[Scotty]

Since the economy crashed in 2008, now all of a sudden nothing any economist says ever has any validity? If the people who devote their lives to studying the economy do not have a valid opinion about economic matters, such as OAS, then no one's opinion is valid. Least of which those that are pandering to their base and playing political games with the livelihood of financially struggling senior citizens.

I did not say it had no validity. However, I think we have seen now that economists, like other professions - lawyers, as example, or even doctors, are more than willing to lend their names or bend their professional ethics towards viewpoint they might support for fame or profit or political/ideological ends. So when some professor or other appears in my newspaper telling me that his special, magical powers - which I, of course, cannot understand - have discerned something - I want to know more about this professor.

I know what Stephan Harper's political sympathies are. I know where his money comes from. I want to know both those things about this other economist in order to determine whether that ought to impact whatever credibility I give to his work.

[Scotty]

How dare you use logical while someone is trying to pretend to be smarter an know more then someone who has spent their loves studying a problem.

I don't believe I ever pretended or suggested I was smarter than this gentleman. I believe all I did was suggest that I wanted more idea of what, if anything might motivate him to tweak his findings. Again, I did not say he did. I have two different statements and am attempting to reconcile them.

This might startle you, I know. Your own predilection is to immediately assign full integrity and approval to whomever agrees with you, and dismiss the opinion of anyone whose politics or ideology diverges from yours. I'm sure you find that entirely satisfactory, but those of us smarter than you like different methods.

And yes, while I make no claims about Milligan, not being familiar with him, I think I have seen enough of your postings to make that claim with a pretty solid degree of confidence.

[punked]

I did not say it had no validity. However, I think we have seen now that economists, like other professions - lawyers, as example, or even doctors, are more than willing to lend their names or bend their professional ethics towards viewpoint they might support for fame or profit or political/ideological ends. So when some professor or other appears in my newspaper telling me that his special, magical powers - which I, of course, cannot understand - have discerned something - I want to know more about this professor.

I know what Stephan Harper's political sympathies are. I know where his money comes from. I want to know both those things about this other economist in order to determine whether that ought to impact whatever credibility I give to his work.

Then go educate yourself and read his arguments. Inform yourself so you can say why agree or disagree with this man, don't just dismiss him because he is an economist. That is crazy.

[Scotty]

Then go educate yourself and read his arguments. Inform yourself so you can say why agree or disagree with this man, don't just dismiss him because he is an economist. That is crazy.

Clearly your ability to understand written English is sub-par. I have not dismissed Miligan. Nor can I, not having an economics degree, delve into the methodology he used to come up with his numbers. However, unlike yourself, I'm not ready to completely dismiss the statements on costs from the government out of hand either. That would be... what did you call it... crazy.

Given the complexity of such things those of us without masters degrees in economics look for the motivation of the different sides. Failing that, we await further pronouncements of opinions from those who DO have masters or doctorates in economics.

[punked]

Clearly your ability to understand written English is sub-par. I have not dismissed Miligan. Nor can I, not having an economics degree, delve into the methodology he used to come up with his numbers. However, unlike yourself, I'm not ready to completely dismiss the statements on costs from the government out of hand either. That would be... what did you call it... crazy.

Given the complexity of such things those of us without masters degrees in economics look for the motivation of the different sides. Failing that, we await further pronouncements of opinions from those who DO have masters or doctorates in economics.

I fail to see why you can not read his work. You often do not need an Economics degree to read the work of Economists it would be a different story to do the work they do but you can read their work and understand most of it just fine. You can read can't you?

[waldo]

However, unlike yourself, I'm not ready to completely dismiss the statements on costs from the government out of hand either. That would be... what did you call it... crazy.

the consensus seems to be that the Harper Conservative government has not provided the "cost statements" you speak of... the ones, as you say, you're not ready to completely dismiss. What cost statements? What definitive, substantiated cost statements that clearly speak to the so-called "unsustainable" OAS... by when? What statements showing that a 2-year extension on the existing social contract with Canadians will make OAS sustainable? Other influences, other considerations? What statements?

[Scotty]

I fail to see why you can not read his work. You often do not need an Economics degree to read the work of Economists it would be a different story to do the work they do but you can read their work and understand most of it just fine. You can read can't you?

Yes, I read rather better than you, I believe. But the proper evaluation of an economist's work is unlikely to be fruitful without a lot of economics background. I could easily find it nonsense simply because I lack the requisite training in certain key aspects. That's the problem with evaluating the statements of any of these professionals, be they doctors, lawyers, economists, or big financial experts from the banks. We lack the background to properly evaluate what they tell us. That's why we need to see counter-arguments from those who disagree with them but who do have such background. It's good that Milligan has made such an argument countering what the government has said. But we can't really determine which of them is correct without more information and more opinions from economic professionals. In considering the array of opinions - and what motivations might be behind them - we can perhaps make a proper judgement call.