NDP Leadership

[cybercoma]

I am personaly against the mail in ballot and on line voting!

All voting should be done on the floor.

Perhaps real time on-line voting should be allowed to co-incide with the on floor voting.

But ultimately the NDP members should be forced to wait until the final weekend to make up their mind as to whom the best candidate should be!

WWWTT

Domestic travel in this country is expensive. Not everyone can afford the convention ticket, airfare, and hotel for the weekend.

[WWWTT]

Once again you spout propaganda against something non-leftwing that is totally bogus! Either you are too young to have lived in those times or you simply think in cartoons and caricatures.

Reform was never anti-Quebec! True, the party and many members did disagree with any perceived special deals and treatment for Quebec but they had absolutely no problem with Quebec wanting more rights as a province, as long as all other provinces received the same.

To a Reformer, Quebec's resentment of Ottawa was always perfectly understandable. Canada began as a confederation of provinces. Somewhere along the way, the federal government assumed more and more control. It couldn't go against the Constitution with things like education and medicare so it did an end run by using money! It could create a national education program in the name of "equality" that would hold out huge sums of money. A province would be unable to resist and like a fish on a line would be hooked. Once it took the federal funding it was caught like an addict to its supplier.

So the federal government now intrudes into many areas that are really none of its business. Quebec had every right to complain. Reform always supported the original Constitutional arrangement of Canada and was very much in favour of provincial rights. Both Alberta and Quebec shared many of the same concerns.

Reformers were always strongly against separatism but still championed the right of any province to choose to go its own way.

The only real beef Reformers supposedly held against Quebec was actually against both the PCs and the Liberals for in effect trying to bribe Quebec with huge sums of federal money and special powers of language, education and immigration that were not also given to every other province.

Hell, the Reformers and the BQ regularly had pancake breakfasts and hockey games together between their MPs in Ottawa! I hardly think they would have gotten along that well if your claim of anti-Quebec feeling from Reform was true!

In all that have you written here, does anything explain why 80%+ of the vote from Alberta is always for a party that has deep roots not from Quebec?

You are trying to justify the reform/alliance/conservative grassroots as if we were in some kind of legal court?!And the court of public opinion does not follow the same rules as a court of law.Ever!

But for the reform/alliance/conservatives to imply that they are anti Quebec usually takes on a more subtle/read between the lines approach.

I have talked to many voters that consistently vote conservative/alliance/reform and they would never vote for any party that has a leader or stong roots from Quebec.This a well known fact and there is nothing that you can say that will change the minds of any of these voters or many that are aware of this fact!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Domestic travel in this country is expensive. Not everyone can afford the convention ticket, airfare, and hotel for the weekend.

On line real time voting as the floor voting is going through would be the easy answer for you.

I was recently a scrutineer in an election recently for the union I belong to.It was a mail in ballot.And the mail in ballot system is filled with flaws.

Aswell if you are serious about the party then maybe some sacrifice is neccessary to ensure your voice is heard.

Thats just my opinion

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

I have talked to many voters that consistently vote conservative/alliance/reform and they would never vote for any party that has a leader or stong roots from Quebec.This a well known fact and there is nothing that you can say that will change the minds of any of these voters or many that are aware of this fact!

WWWTT

I can't possibly imagine why there are separatists.

[cybercoma]

You said you were against online voting, although you contradict yourself by the end of the post.

Here's what you say first.

I am personaly against the mail in ballot and on line voting

All voting should be done on the floor.

So no mail in ballots, no voting online. You have to go to the convention. Full stop.

Then you change your mind about voting online.

Perhaps real time on-line voting should be allowed to co-incide with the on floor voting.

But ultimately the NDP members should be forced to wait until the final weekend to make up their mind as to whom the best candidate should be!

WWWTT

However, you want people to be forced to vote in real time on that weekend.

When you force someone to give up potentially their entire weekend to vote or you require them to be present at the convention, you're only going to get a segment of the party membership there voting. Getting as many people as possible to have a say in the process is one of the key elements of the NDP. What about the student membership? Do you expect them at the end of the semester just prior to their exams to pack up everything buy a plane ticket, fly to Toronto, pay for a hotel room, buy all of their meals, and spend their entire time at the convention? How about membership that has to work over the weekends because they're factory or shift employees? The party has done the right thing by making the vote as accessible as possible to as many voters as possible.

[Newfoundlander]

Yes and the province of Alberta!Among others too.

WWWTT

So what has been Harper's anti-Quebec stance since he became leader of the Conservatives and Prime Minister? Idiotically making the Québécois a nation?

[Wild Bill]

In all that have you written here, does anything explain why 80%+ of the vote from Alberta is always for a party that has deep roots not from Quebec?

You are trying to justify the reform/alliance/conservative grassroots as if we were in some kind of legal court?!And the court of public opinion does not follow the same rules as a court of law.Ever!

But for the reform/alliance/conservatives to imply that they are anti Quebec usually takes on a more subtle/read between the lines approach.

I have talked to many voters that consistently vote conservative/alliance/reform and they would never vote for any party that has a leader or stong roots from Quebec.This a well known fact and there is nothing that you can say that will change the minds of any of these voters or many that are aware of this fact!

WWWTT

Hey, I agree that politics is about perception. YOU implied that Reform as a whole was anti-Quebec! Now you've reduced that claim to "many folks that you personally have talked to..."

There are still many people who believe the NDP are really commies in disguise but that doesn't make it true!

I stand by my position based on having been a long time Reformer, serving a number of terms as a Director in my local riding, that most of what resentment was seen against Quebec was not against Quebec and its people per se but rather against the feds giving her special treatment not enjoyed by the rest of the provinces. In ANY family that sort of thing can't help but bring resentment!

That special treatment was quite real and seen time and time again. It was the decision to award the F-18 maintenance contract to a Quebec firm over a cheaper bid from a Winnepeg outfit with more experience that precipitated the meteoric rise of the Reform Party in the first place! The biggest and most spectacular gift the PCs could ever have given to Preston Manning! It was like handling the Boston Tea Party by tripling the tax on tea!

"In all that have you written here, does anything explain why 80%+ of the vote from Alberta is always for a party that has deep roots not from Quebec?"

What a non sequitur! There are FAR stronger reasons why Alberta does not vote NDP or Liberal! Reasons that have nothing to do with Quebec!

The Liberals have yet to live down the National Energy Policy. That cost too many Albertans their jobs and their homes! People don't soon forget things like that! There are still too many older Albertans who will have to grow older and die before they are no longer a major voting influence. Plus, the typical Albertan is not the type to favour a nanny state! The Liberals always cater to that demographic whenever they are in power.

The NDP have made their career on being anti-business! Albertans see them as job-killers who would enthusiastically increase their taxes.

You might want to argue that these perceptions are wrong but hey! many people I have talked to believe it!

Just to coin a phrase...

[cybercoma]

Poor Alberta. Life sounds really tough in that province.

[WWWTT]

You said you were against online voting, although you contradict yourself by the end of the post.

However, you want people to be forced to vote in real time on that weekend.

When you force someone to give up potentially their entire weekend to vote or you require them to be present at the convention, you're only going to get a segment of the party membership there voting. Getting as many people as possible to have a say in the process is one of the key elements of the NDP. What about the student membership? Do you expect them at the end of the semester just prior to their exams to pack up everything buy a plane ticket, fly to Toronto, pay for a hotel room, buy all of their meals, and spend their entire time at the convention? How about membership that has to work over the weekends because they're factory or shift employees? The party has done the right thing by making the vote as accessible as possible to as many voters as possible.

Re check comment 772 I made in this thread

Maybe I should make it clear that I am not for early voting.This is done by mail in and on line voting.

However if you live far away from where the convention is being held then there can be some contradiction here.

Real time on line is a solution that I can agree with.

As far as people working shifts and students that have to study?Hey this leadership convention only comes up every 5-10 years,if some members can not make a small sacrifice to something as important as this then does the party really want them voting in such important matters?I say no!

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

As far as people working shifts and students that have to study?Hey this leadership convention only comes up every 5-10 years,if some members can not make a small sacrifice to something as important as this then does the party really want them voting in such important matters?I say no!

WWWTT

A small sacrifice like losing one's job or failing a class? I don't think that's a reasonable sacrifice to ask.

[WWWTT]

So what has been Harper's anti-Quebec stance since he became leader of the Conservatives and Prime Minister? Idiotically making the Québécois a nation?

You are asking the wrong person,ask this question to someone from Alberta.

WWWTT

[Evening Star]

the typical Albertan is not the type to favour a nanny state! The Liberals always cater to that demographic whenever they are in power.

How did the 1995 budget cater to those who "favour a nanny state"?

(And why does AB spend so much more per capita on health and education than ON if they don't favour a 'nanny state'? We're not exactly talking about New Hampshire here.)

[Evening Star]

You are asking the wrong person,ask this question to someone from Alberta.

WWWTT

You seemed to be making the claim that the Conservatives are anti-Quebec though. I'm not really sure they are either.

[Evening Star]

Why is it so important that people vote in real time during the convention? If anything, advance voting makes it harder for candidates to make deals during the convention, which seems like an improvement to me.

Re check comment 772 I made in this thread

Maybe I should make it clear that I am not for early voting.This is done by mail in and on line voting.

However if you live far away from where the convention is being held then there can be some contradiction here.

Real time on line is a solution that I can agree with.

As far as people working shifts and students that have to study?Hey this leadership convention only comes up every 5-10 years,if some members can not make a small sacrifice to something as important as this then does the party really want them voting in such important matters?I say no!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

The NDP have made their career on being anti-business! Albertans see them as job-killers who would enthusiastically increase their taxes.

You might want to argue that these perceptions are wrong but hey! many people I have talked to believe it!

Just to coin a phrase...

Well then I guess we are at a stalemate then.Good for you Wild!

And as a side note you have the opposite aproach as bush_cheney2004.I have often critisized him for being too quantity vs quality in his comments.Where as you are more quality!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

A small sacrifice like losing one's job or failing a class? I don't think that's a reasonable sacrifice to ask.

Hey if you can not dedicate the time required then you should not be dictating the future of the party!

If you work for a company that will not give you some time off for something important in your life then is that a good comnpany to work for?We are talking about the NDP here remember?Workers rights?

And if you are a student then maybe you should not get too involved until you have a little more time.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Why is it so important that people vote in real time during the convention? If anything, advance voting makes it harder for candidates to make deals during the convention, which seems like an improvement to me.

I think you are losing the spirit of this run.

This is an excellent opportunity for the NDP to showcase the depth of talent we have!

But during the final weekend its all about picking one leader and thats when we have to convert back to the traditional ways of doing so over a weekend long process and run off ballots and droped out candidates pushing their support for someone still in the running!

Some things should still be left to tradition!

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

Hey if you can not dedicate the time required then you should not be dictating the future of the party!

If you work for a company that will not give you some time off for something important in your life then is that a good comnpany to work for?We are talking about the NDP here remember?Workers rights?

And if you are a student then maybe you should not get too involved until you have a little more time.

WWWTT

That's fine if this is your opinion, but I'm pointing out that you will only get a particular segment of the membership if you require people to vote from the floor. At least opening it up online will make it more likely that a larger portion can vote. Having preferential voting in advance adds more people to the mix. That's all I'm saying. If you don't believe people that are in jobs with inflexible employers, students that can't miss time, or people that simply can't afford to be there should vote, you're entitled to that opinion. I respectfully disagree.

[Evening Star]

But during the final weekend its all about picking one leader and thats when we have to convert back to the traditional ways of doing so over a weekend long process and run off ballots and droped out candidates pushing their support for someone still in the running!

Some things should still be left to tradition!

Just for the sake of it? I don't see why the tradition needs to be preserved in this case, especially when the traditional electoral process for leadership is so different from the electoral process in general elections. People who are unable to vote in person in provincial or federal elections are able to mail in ballots ahead of time, by the way.

[Wild Bill]

I think you are losing the spirit of this run.

This is an excellent opportunity for the NDP to showcase the depth of talent we have!

But during the final weekend its all about picking one leader and thats when we have to convert back to the traditional ways of doing so over a weekend long process and run off ballots and droped out candidates pushing their support for someone still in the running!

Some things should still be left to tradition!

WWWTT

Here we agree! This is indeed an excellent opportunity for the NDP to showcase itself and its talent!

I've been saying all along that the future of the NDP lies in becoming a modern labour party rather than trying to stay an old-fashioned union party. Jack seemed to have understood this but Jack of course is gone.

There are far fewer autoworkers than there were in 1965. There are still lots of CUPE workers but supporting them tends to limit support from any other areas. Most ordinary working Canadians could only dream of being as well off as a CUPE worker. That breeds resentment. The NDP can curry favour from one demographic or the other but not likely both.

The future for the NDP is more Blair than Broadbent.

I'm actually for the first time watching an NDP leadership fight closely. What they do now could launch them into power or condemn them for a few more generations as the smallest party. They will either knock out the Liberals or allow them to recover.

So far I have seen little to show me that the NDP as a whole properly understands the situation.

Politically, these are interesting times

[Newfoundlander]

You are asking the wrong person,ask this question to someone from Alberta.

WWWTT

You are the one who said he's ant-Quebec.

[WWWTT]

That's fine if this is your opinion,you're entitled to that opinion. I respectfully disagree.

And its in my opinion that it is a good thing we have different opinions to freely express and debate!

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

So far I have seen little to show me that the NDP as a whole properly understands the situation.

With consistent reports that say Mulcair is the front-runner, as well as Cullen having quite a bit of support, I would disagree with your assessment. I don't believe Cullen has as much support as the media is suggesting, but you may see Muclair win on the first or second ballot. In which case, I'll assume you'll admit that the party proved your assertion incorrect.

[WWWTT]

You are the one who said he's ant-Quebec.

Yes the reform/alliance/conservatives did make implications that they are not from Quebec!

This is about how I feel that if Mulcair is elected,then the conservatives may be tempted to revert to the old reform "read between the lines" statements and policies!

The same can be said about how the conservatives approach gay/same sex and abortion issues!There are many examples that can be argued for and against.

WWWTT

[WLDB]

As far as people working shifts and students that have to study?Hey this leadership convention only comes up every 5-10 years,if some members can not make a small sacrifice to something as important as this then does the party really want them voting in such important matters?I say no!

WWWTT

The party has said yes by allowing it to happen. I've been a member for several years and worked in the last two campaigns. People have paid for the right to a vote in the race.