Unveiling according to the Prophet

[Guest Peeves]

I've long argued the point that there is no dictate in Islam to cover ones' face. I've seen very few around here that do, but to me a face covering is no more than a mask. A subjugation of women, a disgrace to human rights and a conflict with openness that are traditional in Western societies and contemporary mores.

I understand the veil is a cultural thing. So is fgm and so was (is still on occasion) Sati, or the practice of a widow immolating herself on her husband's funeral pyre, is believed to have originated 700 years ago.

So was burning a witch, stoning a harlot...etc. It is past time for such degradation of women to stop. If there was no other argument than that it is silly to 'bag' someone up in temperatures faced in our countries, that should suffice. Hiding ones face in a mask or their body in a black bag is non-nonsensical.

If I need to deal with a person, I want to see their face.

Now there is a story going around of an Imam that wants Muslim women to be spared the sight of banana's or cucumbers as phallic symbols. I don't believe the story, it's silly, but no more so than wearing a bag and covering your face completely with a net over your eyes!!! Really really silly. Something I would expect in a Monty Python sketch with a silly walk.

Letter to Ed. National Post.

The last word is from the Prophet himself, (blessed be his name)

Niqab is not an issue

Re: Facing Up To Canadian Values, Barbara Kay, Dec. 13.

There really is no reason for the recent controversy surrounding the law to unveil the face during the citizenship ceremony. A brief perusal of Islam’s teachings on this helps settle the issue. Particularly, there’s one specific incident from Prophet Muhammad’s life which bears significant relevance to the current situation. The Prophet was leaving the mosque late at night with his wife fully veiled when two adolescents passed by. Seeing the Prophet with a woman they didn’t recognize, they hurried away. The Prophet noticed and called them back, lifting his wife’s veil from her face to assure them that it was indeed her.

This clearly shows that if a Muslim woman who wears the veil is required to reveal her face temporarily for the greater good of society, then she should oblige and temporarily unveil her face. This would be entirely permissible, as demonstrated by the Prophet himself.

Hammad Ahmad, Winnipeg.

[Guest Manny]

I agree with the last part, it is not a "sin" for them to show their faces at times. However for the first, perhaps you don;t understand why many muslim women, or should I better say, conservative women from the middle east WANT to wear a veil. It's something many of them prefer, choose to do. They have their reasons.

My view is, here in Canada those who WANT to should be allowed to, with certain exceptions as required for identification, which all of us are subject to. If they don't want to, they should be protected by law from anyone who tries to force it on them.

[Tilter]

Letter to Ed. National Post.

The last word is from the Prophet himself, (blessed be his name)

Niqab is not an issue

Re: Facing Up To Canadian Values, Barbara Kay, Dec. 13.

There really is no reason for the recent controversy surrounding the law to unveil the face during the citizenship ceremony. A brief perusal of Islam’s teachings on this helps settle the issue. Particularly, there’s one specific incident from Prophet Muhammad’s life which bears significant relevance to the current situation. The Prophet was leaving the mosque late at night with his wife fully veiled when two adolescents passed by. Seeing the Prophet with a woman they didn’t recognize, they hurried away. The Prophet noticed and called them back, lifting his wife’s veil from her face to assure them that it was indeed her.

This clearly shows that if a Muslim woman who wears the veil is required to reveal her face temporarily for the greater good of society, then she should oblige and temporarily unveil her face. This would be entirely permissible, as demonstrated by the Prophet himself.

Hammad Ahmad, Winnipeg.

And then a genie appeared & gave her 3 wishes.

Leave the fairy tales to be told in church where the suckers will believe them.

BS be his name

Edited December 14, 2011 by Tilter

[Guest Peeves]

I agree with the last part, it is not a "sin" for them to show their faces at times. However for the first, perhaps you don;t understand why many muslim women, or should I better say, conservative women from the middle east WANT to wear a veil. It's something many of them prefer, choose to do. They have their reasons.

My view is, here in Canada those who WANT to should be allowed to, with certain exceptions as required for identification, which all of us are subject to. If they don't want to, they should be protected by law from anyone who tries to force it on them.

You miss the point. Back before the Shaw of Iran was deposed, very few Muslims in any Muslim country wore a Burka. Today it's a political matter, a ruse, a ploy, a camel's nose in the tent, the thin edge of the wedge.

It is today being used chiefly as an in your face political statement, not as a religious one, and we're being suckered into concessions to the politics.

Admittedly there are some women that have been convinced BY MEN that they should conform. Some extremist Muslim men use the 'veil' as a means of subjugation. If you were to follow the opinions of

moderate Muslims as the Canadian Congress...you would understand that most Muslims consider the burka an affront to women.

My opinions are shared by most that have 'looked' into the veil issue. It is NOT a religious requirement. Wearing a mask in public should not be accepted in Canada. Four countries now have banned it and we should as well.

October 8, 2009

Top Egyptian cleric says niqab

has nothing to do with Islam

Muslim Canadian Congress

wants Canada to Ban the Burka

TORONTO - The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) is asking Ottawa to introduce legislation to ban the wearing of masks, niqabs and the burka in all public dealings..

In a statement, the MCC said, not only is the wearing of a face-mask a security hazard and has led to a number of bank heists in Canada and overseas, the burka or niqab are political symbols of Saudi inspired Islamic extremism.

The MCC dismissed the argument that wearing of a face-mask by Muslim women is protected by the Charter's guarantee of religious freedom. The MCC said, there is no requirement in the Quran for Muslim women to cover their faces. Invoking religious freedom to conceal one's identity and promote a political ideology, is disingenuous.

The MCC pointed to the the recent decision by Egypt's highest Muslim authority, Sheikh Mohamed Tantawi, dean of al-Azhar university, who said he will issue a Fatwa (religious edict) against the niqab and burka.

October 11, 2009

"Nowhere in the Islamic world have the scholars achieved a consensus that Islam mandates covering the face. While there seems to be consensus among orthodoxy on modest attire, no orthodox scholar, with the exception of the Wahhabi sheiks, believe that the covering of the face is mandated by the Qur’an"

Farzana Hassan challenges the Islamists: "Let us debate the theology of the burka"

Farzana Hassan

The Calgary Herald

A phone debate on a Montreal-based radio station prompted me to investigate the theology of the burka.

My opponent, a woman who admitted to wearing a burka, angrily instructed me to hold any judgment on whether the Qur’an mandates the burka until I found out more about Islam.

She urged me to conduct a thorough and dispassionate research of the issue. Her response was familiar. Traditional Muslims often accuse more liberal Muslims of ignorance; if such contemptible liberals understood Islam properly, they would be more conservative. They believe the opinions of liberal Muslims are woeful, have no merit or are perhaps inspired by a nefarious anti-Islam agenda.

In any case, I accepted her challenge and my research confirmed what I already knew — that neither the Qur’an nor Islam in general mandates covering the face. In fact, the Qur’an does not urge any woman even to cover her hair. I therefore regard the hijab as a biddah: something that is alien to Islam.

Click here to read the full article

October 8, 2009

"... opponents of a ban on face-masks compare the burka to a bra. Wahida Valiante, chair of the Canadian Islamic Congress, said, “Women can take their bra off and we don’t have any laws against that. So in that context a woman can choose to cover their face in this country.” It was lost on Ms. Valiante that the burka conceals a person’s identity while a bra is female undergarment."

Tarek Fatah says "Burn the Burka"

Tarek Fatah

The National Post

In October 2006, when Britain’s former foreign secretary Jack Straw asked a constituent wearing a face-mask in his office to remove her veil, he was lambasted by UK’s mosque establishment and clerics as a racist and Islamophobe.

Three years later, it was the mother of all Islamic clerics — Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Mosque and Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar University in Egypt — who found himself in Jack Straw’s shoes.

Speaking to students in a girls’ school in Egypt, Sheikh Tantawi asked a girl draped in a head-to-toe black burka to take off the veil from her face. The girl refused, leading the frustrated Egyptian cleric to say he will issue a fatwa (religious edict) against the growing trend among Muslim women to wear the niqab (a dark veil covering the entire face, leaving a hole only for the eyes). He told the young woman that full-face veiling is a custom that has nothing to do with the Islamic faith.

The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) is now adding its voice to Sheikh Tantawi’s, and all the others who demand an end to this insult to the female gender. The MCC, an organization that I once led, has asked Ottawa to introduce legislation that will “ban the wearing of masks, burkas and niqabs in public.”

Defenders of the burka contend that the wearing of a face-mask by Muslim women is protected by our Charter’s right to religious freedom. But such arguments are premised on the myth that a face-mask for women is a necessary part of religiously prescribed Islamic attire.

There is no requirement in Islam for Muslim women to cover their face. Rather, the practice reflects a mode of male control over women. Its association with Islam originates in Saudi Arabia, which seeks to export the practice of veiling — along with other elements of its extremist Wahhabist brand of Islam.

Click here to read the full article (Clink link)

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

[Guest Peeves]

Letter to Ed. National Post.

The last word is from the Prophet himself, (blessed be his name)

And then a genie appeared & gave her 3 wishes.

Leave the fairy tales to be told in church where the suckers will believe them.

BS be his name

That's funny. But, not as convincing as the attitude of Muslim countries that have their own conflict with the burka.

Currently Tunisia since 1981,[2] and Turkey since 1997,[3] are the only Muslim countries which have banned the hijab in public schools and universities or government buildings, whilst Syria banned face veils in universities from July 2010.[4] This ban was lifted during the 2011 Syrian uprising. In other Muslim states such as Morocco,[5] there has been some restriction or discrimination against women who wear the hijab. The hijab in these cases is seen as a sign of political Islam or fundamentalism against secular government.

Islamic dress, notably the variety of headdresses worn by Muslim women, has become a prominent symbol of the presence of Islam in western Europe. In several countries this adherence to hijab has led to political controversies and proposals for a legal ban. The Dutch government has decided to introduce a ban on face-covering clothing, popularly described as the "burqa ban", although it does not only apply to the Afghan-model burqa.

Other countries are debating similar legislation, or have more limited prohibitions. Some of them apply only to face-covering clothing such as the burqa, chador, boushiya, or niqāb; some apply to any clothing with an Islamic religious symbolism such as the khimar, a type of headscarf. (Some countries already have laws banning the wearing of masks in public, which can be applied to veils that conceal the face). The issue has different names in different countries, and "the veil" or "hijab" may be used as general terms for the debate, representing more than just the veil itself, or the concept of modesty embodied in hijab.

Although the Balkans and Eastern Europe have indigenous Muslim populations, most Muslims in western Europe are members of immigrant communities. The issue of Islamic dress is linked with issues of immigration and the position of Islam in Western Europe.

[Guest Manny]

That's right, no one should be forced to wear it in Canada. But I did not miss any point. I said, some women WANT TO WEAR IT. And they have their reasons. You, as a man and from another culture have no right to rip the veil from their faces, since you don't understand those reasons. You think you are doing them some good, but you are not, if they in fact prefer to wear it themselves.

Poor muslim women, everybody is pushing them around telling them what to do. Why don't we just leave them alone for cripes sakes. Protect their right to be as anyone else in Canada, whether it be wearing a veil or going on a slut-walk.

[The_Squid]

That's right, no one should be forced to wear it in Canada. But I did not miss any point. I said, some women WANT TO WEAR IT. And they have their reasons. You, as a man and from another culture have no right to rip the veil from their faces, since you don't understand those reasons. You think you are doing them some good, but you are not, if they in fact prefer to wear it themselves.

Poor muslim women, everybody is pushing them around telling them what to do. Why don't we just leave them alone for cripes sakes. Protect their right to be as anyone else in Canada, whether it be wearing a veil or going on a slut-walk.

No one says ban it. But, for the purposes of identification and communication, there are times when they will have to show their faces.

Some contend that they should never have to do that because it infringes upon their freedom.

Most others contend that it is a reasonable to ask. You even said so yourself.

My view is, here in Canada those who WANT to should be allowed to, with certain exceptions as required for identification, which all of us are subject to.

Only a very few have argued otherwise.

However, if you think the niqab is always a voluntary practice, I think that you are sorely mistaken. It is a cultural practice that subjugates women, for the most part.

Edited December 14, 2011 by The_Squid

[Guest Manny]

However, if you think the niqab is always a voluntary practice, I think that you are sorely mistaken. It is a cultural practice that subjugates women, for the most part.

No I don't think it's always voluntary. I believe those in Canada who wish to remove it have the right to do so. The law is behind them. I'm concerned that sometimes they might not get the protection they really need however, and this needs to be taken much more seriously when a woman expresses the desire to break away from an oppressive aspect of their families culture. Case in point, what happened in eastern Ontario. Four women found dead in their car at the bottom of a river, killed by men in their family.

[cybercoma]

Shouldn't this either be in the thread about the veils or in the religion forum?

[The_Squid]

Shouldn't this either be in the thread about the veils or in the religion forum?

yes, not sure why someone thought they needed to start a new topic in the same forum.

[cybercoma]

The phrase "straight from the camel's mouth" when referring to Islam's religious holy figure is also quite offensive.

[The_Squid]

The phrase "straight from the camel's mouth" when referring to Islam's religious holy figure is also quite offensive.

Wow.... very sensitive.

Personally, I don't find any religious figure to be above a pun, joke or insult.

Blasphemers beware!!

Edited December 14, 2011 by The_Squid

[cybercoma]

Wow.... very sensitive.

Personally, I don't find any religious figure to be above a pun, joke or insult.

Blasphemers beware!!

I'm an atheist, but I don't believe people should be making fun of or insulting things that are sacrosanct to others. On the other hand, rational criticism of religious beliefs or activities that undermine humanity and people's fundamental rights and freedoms is absolutely necessary. That's something entirely different than making fun of or insulting things. It's one thing to make fun of or be insulting about a person's religion and quite another to rationally critcize some very negative aspects of it.

[The_Squid]

I'm an atheist, but I don't believe people should be making fun of or insulting things that are sacrosanct to others. On the other hand, rational criticism of religious beliefs or activities that undermine humanity and people's fundamental rights and freedoms is absolutely necessary. That's something entirely different than making fun of or insulting things. It's one thing to make fun of or be insulting about a person's religion and quite another to rationally critcize some very negative aspects of it.

I don't agree... humour can be used effectively in debates and criticisms. I don't believe that religions or religious figures should be some sort of untouchable "sacred-cow" when it comes to humour.

[Guest Manny]

I don't agree... humour can be used effectively in debates and criticisms. I don't believe that religions or religious figures should be some sort of untouchable "sacred-cow" when it comes to humour.

BOOOM!!!

[Tilter]

That's right, no one should be forced to wear it in Canada. But I did not miss any point. I said, some women WANT TO WEAR IT. And they have their reasons. You, as a man and from another culture have no right to rip the veil from their faces, since you don't understand those reasons. You think you are doing them some good, but you are not, if they in fact prefer to wear it themselves.

Poor muslim women, everybody is pushing them around telling them what to do. Why don't we just leave them alone for cripes sakes. Protect their right to be as anyone else in Canada, whether it be wearing a veil or going on a slut-walk.

I believe that they should wear them in their own home when the temperature is at least 100 F, the flies are bad and they are ugly. Other than that, there is NO reason for anyone to wear a disguise.

[Guest Manny]

Sure there is. When someone like you is in the room...

[Shakeyhands]

I believe that they should wear them in their own home when the temperature is at least 100 F, the flies are bad and they are ugly. Other than that, there is NO reason for anyone to wear a disguise.

This is, without a doubt, the most ignorant thing I have ever read on this board. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Guest Peeves]

I'm an atheist, but I don't believe people should be making fun of or insulting things that are sacrosanct to others. On the other hand, rational criticism of religious beliefs or activities that undermine humanity and people's fundamental rights and freedoms is absolutely necessary. That's something entirely different than making fun of or insulting things. It's one thing to make fun of or be insulting about a person's religion and quite another to rationally critcize some very negative aspects of it.

....and you are entitled to your opinion as am I and others. Actually It's immaterial whether one is offended or not,...intentionally or not...You have the right to be offended as do I to offend within the law of course.

This is not about religion it's about politics, that's why it's posted in politics, because our Federal Minister Kenny dealing with a political citizenship issue, took a stand.

BTW, my issue is not about the veil over the head but of the niquab, burka, chador. A mask is a mask is a mask whatever one calls it and it IS a political issue.

TORONTO - The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) is asking Ottawa to introduce legislation to ban the wearing of masks, niqabs and the burka in all public dealings..

In a statement, the MCC said, not only is the wearing of a face-mask a security hazard and has led to a number of bank heists in Canada and overseas, the burka or niqab are political symbols of Saudi inspired Islamic extremism.

The MCC dismissed the argument that wearing of a face-mask by Muslim women is protected by the Charter's guarantee of religious freedom. The MCC said, there is no requirement in the Quran for Muslim women to cover their faces. Invoking religious freedom to conceal one's identity and promote a political ideology, is disingenuous.

What next, Muslims will be leading religious prayers in public schools!... Oh wait!

[Guest Manny]

Again, poor muslim women are being pushed around by various groups with their agendas.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Again, poor muslim women are being pushed around by various groups with their agendas.

I wish you would have simply said women, there is the real tragedy. Its not just this group or that, it is THE most divisive issue in the world. Sorry guys, but the days are numbered for the "MAN's" world.

[cybercoma]

....and you are entitled to your opinion as am I and others. Actually It's immaterial whether one is offended or not,...intentionally or not...You have the right to be offended as do I to offend within the law of course.

I didn't say it was illegal. I said it was offensive, which shows you lack the intellectual rigour to synthesize various points of view when crafting your arguments.

This is not about religion it's about politics, that's why it's posted in politics, because our Federal Minister Kenny dealing with a political citizenship issue, took a stand.

So this thread is about the exact same thing that the other thread is about. Why the need to double-post, other than being completely arrogant, thinking that your thoughts and ideas are so monumentally important that they can't go in the other thread?

What next, Muslims will be leading religious prayers in public schools!... Oh wait!

Slippery slope arguments are nonsense. You're arguing against a prediction of some future situation that is far from inevitable, yet you treat it as though it's a foregone conclusion. In this case, you're using a present situation to imply some future crisis that you're not even honest enough to outline explicitly. Instead you say "look at how terrible it is that Muslims pray," and leave the future "dystopia" up to the readers' imaginations. Well, Peeves, I don't find it at all a problem that Muslims pray. Just like I don't find it a problem that any other religious person prays. What's problematic about religion is people forcing their values and culture on others. And you know what? That's exactly what you're doing.

[Guest Peeves]

Again, poor muslim women are being pushed around by various groups with their agendas.

I don't follow your statement. Who is pushing? The Muslim men? The Muslim Canadian Congress? The societies that have distaste for masks? Just by who and with what agenda?

And...? what do you mean by "again" ? As in Saudi Arabia perchance or Iran?

[Guest Peeves]

I didn't say it was illegal. I said it was offensive, which shows you lack the intellectual rigour to synthesize various points of view when crafting your arguments.

So this thread is about the exact same thing that the other thread is about. Why the need to double-post, other than being completely arrogant, thinking that your thoughts and ideas are so monumentally important that they can't go in the other thread?

Slippery slope arguments are nonsense. You're arguing against a prediction of some future situation that is far from inevitable, yet you treat it as though it's a foregone conclusion. In this case, you're using a present situation to imply some future crisis that you're not even honest enough to outline explicitly. Instead you say "look at how terrible it is that Muslims pray," and leave the future "dystopia" up to the readers' imaginations. Well, Peeves, I don't find it at all a problem that Muslims pray. Just like I don't find it a problem that any other religious person prays. What's problematic about religion is people forcing their values and culture on others. And you know what? That's exactly what you're doing.

I'm forcing nothing on anyone I'm stating my opinion. Would you deprive me of that? Now that's arrogant.

BTW the Muslim prayers now being conducted in a public school in Ontario is a contentious issue for some as it should be. I care not that any pray, but keep it off public property. In Britain public prayer is shutting down roads... for god's sake. oops..Allah's sake.

[Tilter]

That's right, no one should be forced to wear it in Canada. But I did not miss any point. I said, some women WANT TO WEAR IT. And they have their reasons. You, as a man and from another culture have no right to rip the veil from their faces, since you don't understand those reasons. You think you are doing them some good, but you are not, if they in fact prefer to wear it themselves.

Poor muslim women, everybody is pushing them around telling them what to do. Why don't we just leave them alone for cripes sakes. Protect their right to be as anyone else in Canada, whether it be wearing a veil or going on a slut-walk.

If they

some women WANT TO WEAR IT

they should BUT then.they shouldn't want to drive a car, walk the streets like haunts or expect to walk into businesses without getting arrested as holdup suspects