First Nations peoples are being eradicated by

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Then you are delusional. Because all Canadians are by their nature, NOT equal. Those with disabilities are not legislated into equality. Gays and Lesbians and Transgendered people are not heterosexual and by their nature have other needs. Old people are not youths and children are not adults. French speaking people are not y their nature required to learn English.

The best we can do in a civil society is to guarantee "reasonable accommodation" and equity. First Nations funding is inequitable. And if it is our desire to change the status quo we have to change that inequity FIRST before we can complain about anything else.

While the Charter provides that we are all "equal before and under the law" in practicality that isn't true either since the rich can afford lawyers that are not otherwise available to poorer people. Therefore if we want a just soceity we have to correct the inequity first.

Great start. Now let us begin with your interpretation of the word equal, or should I simply say your choice in terminology for your desired statement. Words can be weapons as well as tools, it depends not merely on personal perspective but as much as the level of discernment that each individual is capable of. Another old adage is simply that it takes two to tango. The practical application of law is the factual root of the problem is it not? The answer to the puzzle may be that the law MUST BE considered to be "living" and subject to the pretext of being in the public interest. That interest is determined by legislative effort through democratic process. In other words the tyranny of the majority is preserved. While I do truly indeed applaud constitutional enhancements such as our efforts at human rights, I will suggest that we are as far away from equal rights today as we were from human rights in 1867. This nation has stalled in its attempt at nation building, we have failed in our attempt to create the just society we all desired. Even so, perhaps we can make something from our failures in spite of ourselves. The inequity of which you speak is founded within our own constitution. You are therefore right, and we do need to correct the inequity first by making all natural (as opposed to legal citizens) citizens equal with no more right or privilege than ANY OTHER citizen.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I dunno. Everything Iv read suggests the numbers are sinking pretty fast. Even if there is investment the problem is indians with jobs dont want to live there. Our local band, provides indians with a piece of land and 30k to get started building a house, and they cant get natives to invest. Mainly because theres not only restrictions on who they can sell the land to, but its almost impossible for them to put their homes up as collateral for other loans. The dwellings that ARE going up are mostly used mobiles. Natives are getting smart, and theyre moving into the cities to make their own way and lots of them are doing very well. For the most part the ones that CAN leave and build in a normal realestate market are.

Even if the reserves were thriving places, the reality is they never really own the land they live on there and can never sell it on the open market. Since most families retire on the equity in their homes this a major problem for natives. They could change the rules and allow natives to sell their land on the open market, but then the reserves (many of them pretty prime realestate would be mostly owned by whites within a generation.

This is a good thing for everyone IMO. Hopefully the trend increases until the reserves are empty.

Very well said.

[jacee]

I dunno. Everything Iv read suggests the numbers are sinking pretty fast. Even if there is investment the problem is indians with jobs dont want to live there. Our local band, provides indians with a piece of land and 30k to get started building a house, and they cant get natives to invest. Mainly because theres not only restrictions on who they can sell the land to, but its almost impossible for them to put their homes up as collateral for other loans. The dwellings that ARE going up are mostly used mobiles. Natives are getting smart, and theyre moving into the cities to make their own way and lots of them are doing very well. For the most part the ones that CAN leave and build in a normal realestate market are.

Even if the reserves were thriving places, the reality is they never really own the land they live on there and can never sell it on the open market. Since most families retire on the equity in their homes this a major problem for natives. They could change the rules and allow natives to sell their land on the open market, but then the reserves (many of them pretty prime realestate would be mostly owned by whites within a generation.

This is a good thing for everyone IMO. Hopefully the trend increases until the reserves are empty.

I get the feeling that this thread was started and continues to spread hatred and counsel genocide - extinction - of Indigenous Nations and cultures of Canada. That's a criminal offence.

The Supreme Court rulings on Aboriginal rights are the law, increasingly so.

The populations on reserves are growing, as are the populations in towns and cities.

That happens when we stop killing Indigenous children in residential schools.

[Bryan]

We pay nothing towards First Nations. All the money they receive is drawn from the interest on the $2 trillion First Nations Trust account.

You have been asked repeatedly to provide proof of this $2 trillion account. You keep referencing it, but refuse to provide evidence that it even exists.

Besides, over $9 billion a year is paid to First Nations out of the Canadian general revenues. That absolutely is money that we are paying out of our taxes. IF first nations communities do get any money from this account, it's in ADDITION to the $9 billion of our money that they are already getting.

[charter.rights]

You have been asked repeatedly to provide proof of this $2 trillion account. You keep referencing it, but refuse to provide evidence that it even exists.

Besides, over $9 billion a year is paid to First Nations out of the Canadian general revenues. That absolutely is money that we are paying out of our taxes. IF first nations communities do get any money from this account, it's in ADDITION to the $9 billion of our money that they are already getting.

Nope.

The $15 billion AANDC budget is drawn from the $35 billion in interest the government must pay on the trusts. That money comes from Canadian royalties on gas, oil, timber and mining, as well as corporate taxes.

Our personal income taxes and HST don't even pay for the services and municipal transfers we receive. Corporate taxes make up the difference.

Edited December 13, 2011 by charter.rights

[g_bambino]

You have been asked repeatedly to provide proof of this $2 trillion account. You keep referencing it, but refuse to provide evidence that it even exists.

Don't expect any evidence. He's been deflecting the request for at least a couple of years now.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Don't expect any evidence. He's been deflecting the request for at least a couple of years now.

Posturing, nothing more or less. The Six Nations already have whatever lands they were ever going to get. There can be no solution based on dollar bills and the Six Nations should and most likely do know this. The land in question will not be taken from the current owners. The compensation that may and likely will be offered will make them rich enough, period.

[g_bambino]

The compensation that may and likely will be offered will make them rich enough, period.

The victim industry can be quite profitable and easy to exploit.

[Guest Peeves]

I get the feeling that this thread was started and continues to spread hatred and counsel genocide - extinction - of Indigenous Nations and cultures of Canada. That's a criminal offence.

The Supreme Court rulings on Aboriginal rights are the law, increasingly so.

The populations on reserves are growing, as are the populations in towns and cities.

That happens when we stop killing Indigenous children in residential schools.

This thread was started because Natives are in the news, again and again over conditions on reserves.

[charter.rights]

Posturing, nothing more or less. The Six Nations already have whatever lands they were ever going to get. There can be no solution based on dollar bills and the Six Nations should and most likely do know this. The land in question will not be taken from the current owners. The compensation that may and likely will be offered will make them rich enough, period.

See your wishful thinking doesn't match reality.

The government has already returned the Burtch Lands, and has the Douglas Estates lands (the land they reclaimed) committed to be returned. As well there are a number of other claims before the courts right now that deal with other lands in Brantford and Brant County that will be returned or fair value compensation in settlement. The government has already recognized these lands were never surrendered. Then there is the Culbertson Tract in Deseronto where the government has acknowledge still belong to the Mohawks.

The Haldimand Tract Claim is being prepared to be filed within 2012. So settlement will be a combination of fair value compensation and return of lands. That is the trend.

[Tilter]

What is paid depends on the claim and the loss of use payments negotiated.

Th $77 trillion for Ontario comes from the Supreme Court's formula for determining fair value for lands claims settlements. They prescribe that the fair value is as follows:

1. The value of land at the time is was occupied without a surrender, PLUS compounded interest set out by schedule set by an Order in Council from 1820 to the present, PLUS loss of use determined on the potential use of the land for the years is was not in the possession of the First Nation,

OR

2. The fair market value of the land at the present (time of settlement) as improved (with all buildings and development) PLUS loss of use determined on the potential use of the land for the years is was not in the possession of the First Nation,

whichever is less.

A 300 acre parcel worth $14,000 in 1820 would be valued at $1 billion today. The Haldimand Tract which was set aside for the exclusive use of Six Nations has a current value of $14 trillion today. While these values are huge, they are nonetheless complicated settlements that will require other creative ways of paying off the First Nation. In the end, one way or the other we still have to find a settlement with them.

When the land is being paid for the second time?

[charter.rights]

When the land is being paid for the second time?

These types of claims are for lands that have never been surrendered, no treaty exists or for reserve lands that were illegally expropriated. They haven't been paid for in the first place.

[jacee]

This thread was started because Natives are in the news, again and again over conditions on reserves.

So you could promote your view that Indigenous cultures and communities should just disappear into the Canadian 'mosaic'.

Allowing anachronistic faux customs in todays world will simply result in more drug abuse, suicide and squalor. Time to end it.

Time to end the destruction of Indigenous cultures.

[g_bambino]

Time to end the destruction of Indigenous cultures.

Realistically, that's not going to happen. Culture is inherently amorphous; indigenous cultures continually change, are absorbed by other cultures, or die out.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited December 13, 2011 by g_bambino

[jacee]

Well yes, the oil and logging and mineral extraction industries would hope those pesky Aboriginal rights would just disappear, and the governments, Lib and Con, are doing everything they can to oblige.

It's still genocide, still illegal, still just the greed culture pulling the strings.

Now talking about a culture that needs to disappear ... the greed culture is the most dangerous element of 'modern society'.

[Guest Peeves]

So you could promote your view that Indigenous cultures and communities should just disappear into the Canadian 'mosaic'.

Time to end the destruction of Indigenous cultures.

So that I could suggest the status quo is non functional and is leading to squalid life styles of drug abuse, boredom and suicide.

[g_bambino]

Well yes, the oil and logging and mineral extraction industries would hope those pesky Aboriginal rights would just disappear, and the governments, Lib and Con, are doing everything they can to oblige.

You were talking about culture, not rights.

[jacee]

You were talking about culture, not rights.

The rights exist within the cultures and on the traditional lands.

You really can't separate them.

And you can't separate them from the land either.

[Bryan]

Time to end the destruction of Indigenous cultures.

If this argument had anything to do with indigenous culture, we would not be barraged by guilt-trip laden demands for cash.

[jacee]

If this argument had anything to do with indigenous culture, we would not be barraged by guilt-trip laden demands for cash.

Hunh?

Never mind.

[Guest Peeves]

Hunh?

Never mind.

How would you react to my suggesting that First Nations are not expected to conform to the laws that the rest of we citizens do?

Apparently they are granted exceptions to our rule of law?

[charter.rights]

How would you react to my suggesting that First Nations are not expected to conform to the laws that the rest of we citizens do?

Apparently they are granted exceptions to our rule of law?

The Supreme Rule of Law is contained in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, no?

So how about you provide the laws that you think Aboriginal people are exempt from....instead of just mouthing your fears?

Edited December 14, 2011 by charter.rights

[Techjack]

I have been following the developing story in Attawapiskat for the last week or two. Comments made by AFN Chief Shawn Atleo suggest he is in favor of doing away with the reserve system. What would this lead to?

What is the new system that will fix the ever present problems of poverty, incest, depression, and drug use?

I am in favor of whattever will bring these lost ancestors of canada into the 21st century.

[Guest Manny]

I always remember the story how two cops out west one night took a native youth who was troublesome and drove him way, way out of town. Then they kicked him out of the cruiser and left him there, with no jacket and it was like -25 freezing, or something like that. He never made it back home, he died of exposure.

That's how HE WAS ERADICATED.

Probably, they did that before as a sadistic punishment for people, but none of them ever died. If a native makes complaints about the police it typically gets nowhere. Heck if a "white man" makes complaints it gets no where, so much more so for the native.

And this is my point exactly- that I can make such a claim, and most of you will shrug and agree, the native gets even more ignored, disregarded. They are still regarded as lesser in stature and rights than non-natives. Many people despise them, simply because they are natives. And they (natives) fully and well know that.

Now you put yourself in another mans shoes... if he even had shoes, that night, which he didn't.

When you are brought up to realize that most of the mainstream society hates you (whose culture is so totally different from yours) and you have examples like this, plus many others that never resulted in death but still caused abuse, by the officials in the system, you have nothing to believe in anymore. This is only one of the many problems that leads a person to give up hope, and turn to substance abuse and vagrancy.

So you people who sit at your keyboard in comfort can easily criticize what you don't understand. But you are wrong to do so, if your attitude only drives them further into despair. Really, what needs to change is not only the attitude and opportunities of the native, but it's US, our attitudes. We need to find a way to reconcile with them. Not just a handshake from the Prime Minister, but from the people themselves, there has to be an awareness program. Today we have educational programs to promote understanding and eliminate hate of gays, blacks and jews, because those things are recognized ills in our society. The same thing, taken to the same level is needed for natives!

[Wild Bill]

And this is my point exactly- that I can make such a claim, and most of you will shrug and agree, the native gets even more ignored, disregarded. They are still regarded as lesser in stature and rights than non-natives. Many people despise them, simply because they are natives. And they (natives) fully and well know that.

When you are brought up to realize that most of the mainstream society hates you (whose culture is so totally different from yours) and you have examples like this, plus many others that never resulted in death but still caused abuse, by the officials in the system, you have nothing to believe in anymore. This is only one of the many problems that leads a person to give up hope, and turn to substance abuse and vagrancy.

Geez Manny, sure you got enough drama into your post? You make so many non sequiturs I don't know where to start!

First off, you claim that many people despise natives. How many is many? There are always a certain percentage of bigots, in any culture. The most racist man I ever met was a Hindu! The important question is, what percentage are they? Is it enough to be significant?

Most non-natives never think about the issue! As far as despising them, I think you are exaggerating. Perhaps if you take someone from a community that lives close to a reserve with grievous problems of alcoholism and crime he may despise any bad behaviour of those natives. He may also be such a shallow thinker as to believe that the natives on that reserve are "all the same". Still, that is hardly a mainstream Canadian situation.

Second, cops often do stupid things to ALL people! Many are hired more for their toughness than their empathy skills. Those employed near reserves likely get jaded dealing with the natives that pose problems, just as a cop who works around Jane and Finch in Toronto gets jaded with the street people, of any or all races.

Hell, I knew cops when I was young that despised all teenagers, white or not!

In your feverish pursuit of placing all the blame on mainstream Canada, you seem to ignore any sense of self-sufficiency and responsibility at all. I'm reminded of a parable I've posted before. It was some time ago so perhaps many here have not heard it:

A set of twins were born to a drunken, lazy and violent father. One twin grew up exactly the same, shaped by the abuse. The other became a model citizen, getting well educated, finding a good job and raising a fine family.

When the first twin was asked "Why did you turn out the way you did?" he replied "Well, with a father like mine what would you expect?"

When the second twin was asked the same question he gave the same answer!

Edited December 16, 2011 by Wild Bill