First Nations peoples are being eradicated by

[olp1fan]

Many experts claim it may be inevitable. When negotiation and reconciliation fails, increasing levels of violence and unrest will follow. It doesn't matter whether I support it or not. But we should be doing everything in our power to avoid the consequence of our own inaction and the blatant racism demonstrate here and elsewhere.

isn't that how we deal with Quebec? no more special treatment for Quebec or the Natives

[charter.rights]

If they ever try we will raise up in arms and shoot them all dead. Period. Don't ever kid yourself about that -- they won't take the land/homes that folks spent their hole lives working for.

My family lost sizable assets and land in the world wars in Europe. It's gone now as is anything like your outrageous claims.

You might as well give up and get a job. The tax benefits are going away too it's just a matter of time. We should all be treated equally, there shouldn't be multiple classes of people.

I don't feel bad for any of them. I think subsidizing their way of life has been the worst thing we could've done for them. No tax breaks, no grants, no special treatment.

OUR subsidies and corporate welfare is not sustainable. However First Nations have the law on their side. We don't. So if you raise a weapon anywhere in Canada expect the full extent of the law to come down on you.

You might want to study the tactics. Natives have been peacefully starting protests and occupations. It is only when the police of government uses force that the fight back - hard. Most Canadians (including you I suspect) don't have the balls to stand up to them. Certainly the OPP didn't 3 years ago.

[charter.rights]

isn't that how we deal with Quebec? no more special treatment for Quebec or the Natives

Their rights exceed our own.

And Quebec has different rights that are being accommodated under the laws of Canada. There isn't a thing we can do about it except get used to it because the Supreme Court is strengthening those rights with almost every ruling.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Many experts claim it may be inevitable. When negotiation and reconciliation fails, increasing levels of violence and unrest will follow. It doesn't matter whether I support it or not. But we should be doing everything in our power to avoid the consequence of our own inaction and the blatant racism demonstrate here and elsewhere.

In fact your support does matter. As a matter of fact it is indeed relevant. With all due respect, I will suggest that the person who would be "doing everything in our power to avoid the consequence of our own inaction" is most likely a fully educated idiot spending their life time wondering why they are getting old chasing their own tail.

I maintain that all citizens are equal, we should all have the same rights.

[charter.rights]

Rule of law is decided by Canadians. Not a tiny minority. Majority won't let themselves be ruled by a small minority.

Rule of law is determined according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Aboriginal people are on solid legal ground in asserting Aboriginal title and Aboriginal rights.

Canadians are pawns in a game where governments make up reality according to their own agendas.

[cybercoma]

Rule of law is decided by Canadians. Not a tiny minority. Majority won't let themselves be ruled by a small minority.

The rule of law has been decided. It would take a Constitutional amendment to change any of this and there will never be that kind of support for changing it. Just ask Mulroney.

[Martin Chriton]

I maintain that all citizens are equal, we should all have the same rights.

Agree, and I think most Canadians agree with that.

OUR subsidies and corporate welfare is not sustainable. However First Nations have the law on their side. We don't. So if you raise a weapon anywhere in Canada expect the full extent of the law to come down on you.

You might want to study the tactics. Natives have been peacefully starting protests and occupations. It is only when the police of government uses force that the fight back - hard. Most Canadians (including you I suspect) don't have the balls to stand up to them. Certainly the OPP didn't 3 years ago.

I think that might depend on the scope of their actions. If it starts to affect a majority of Canadian's I suspect public opinion will sway to having police keeping the natives inline, ideally by arresting them peacefully, if not force would of course be required.

If police/gov don't do their job the majority of Canadian's will do what they need to defend their assets and future, see Arab spring as an example. If the government doesn't defend Canadians they will be overthrown.

[charter.rights]

In fact your support does matter. As a matter of fact it is indeed relevant. With all due respect, I will suggest that the person who would be "doing everything in our power to avoid the consequence of our own inaction" is most likely a fully educated idiot spending their life time wondering why they are getting old chasing their own tail.

I maintain that all citizens are equal, we should all have the same rights.

Then you are delusional. Because all Canadians are by their nature, NOT equal. Those with disabilities are not legislated into equality. Gays and Lesbians and Transgendered people are not heterosexual and by their nature have other needs. Old people are not youths and children are not adults. French speaking people are not y their nature required to learn English.

The best we can do in a civil society is to guarantee "reasonable accommodation" and equity. First Nations funding is inequitable. And if it is our desire to change the status quo we have to change that inequity FIRST before we can complain about anything else.

While the Charter provides that we are all "equal before and under the law" in practicality that isn't true either since the rich can afford lawyers that are not otherwise available to poorer people. Therefore if we want a just soceity we have to correct the inequity first.

[Martin Chriton]

The rule of law has been decided. It would take a Constitutional amendment to change any of this and there will never be that kind of support for changing it. Just ask Mulroney.

See my last post, if the settlement is as claimed: "Not that I doubt your sincerity, but does your idea of "settling it" include the full $2 trillion trust and the additional $75 trillion for the lands claim settlement of Ontario? Or how about the sharing of all the resources, including royalties and stakes in the companies? " and any government tries to pay that they will be overthrown. Public opinion will easily prevent anything from like that happening and laws changed.

[cybercoma]

Certainly the OPP didn't 3 years ago.

This is our military standing up to the First Nations. They wet their pants.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/media/oka-confrontation-4025.jpg

Never did build that golf course, did they?

[charter.rights]

Agree, and I think most Canadians agree with that.

I think that might depend on the scope of their actions. If it starts to affect a majority of Canadian's I suspect public opinion will sway to having police keeping the natives inline, ideally by arresting them peacefully, if not force would of course be required.

If police/gov don't do their job the majority of Canadian's will do what they need to defend their assets and future, see Arab spring as an example. If the government doesn't defend Canadians they will be overthrown.

In the occupation at Caledonia, the OPP spent the majority of their time facing the townsfolk protesting the protesters. They were the ones that had to be controlled. Yet they were the ones yelling for police action - something the police had no legal right to do - remove the occupiers. The Six Nations people who reclaimed that subdivision were on solid legal ground in doing so.

And that is how most of it will go. You might want to understand that Native people are as adept at controlling the message as they are in standing up against injustices.

[Martin Chriton]

A question is how much taxes would the avg Canadian have to pay before they want these laws changed? I think any noticable tax impact would add much public support for changing the laws.

It is worth costing out what we currently pay for the average tax payer for the first nations. Perhaps, if that was more public, more folks would be for abolishing the current tax subsidies?

Does anyone know the current stats?

[cybercoma]

In fact your support does matter. As a matter of fact it is indeed relevant. With all due respect, I will suggest that the person who would be "doing everything in our power to avoid the consequence of our own inaction" is most likely a fully educated idiot spending their life time wondering why they are getting old chasing their own tail.

I maintain that all citizens are equal, we should all have the same rights.

All citizens are not equal. The Royal Family is not equal.

[wyly]

Rule of law is decided by Canadians. Not a tiny minority. Majority won't let themselves be ruled by a small minority.

hmmm, we let a political party that rules majority 60% of canada....

[Martin Chriton]

In the occupation at Caledonia, the OPP spent the majority of their time facing the townsfolk protesting the protesters. They were the ones that had to be controlled. Yet they were the ones yelling for police action - something the police had no legal right to do - remove the occupiers. The Six Nations people who reclaimed that subdivision were on solid legal ground in doing so.

And that is how most of it will go. You might want to understand that Native people are as adept at controlling the message as they are in standing up against injustices.

Depends on what they want... let's see them try to reclaim Toronto and occupying banks, businesses, etc. They would be cleaned up rather quickly.

[charter.rights]

See my last post, if the settlement is as claimed: "Not that I doubt your sincerity, but does your idea of "settling it" include the full $2 trillion trust and the additional $75 trillion for the lands claim settlement of Ontario? Or how about the sharing of all the resources, including royalties and stakes in the companies? " and any government tries to pay that they will be overthrown. Public opinion will easily prevent anything from like that happening and laws changed.

You are out of touch with the political reality in Canada.

The fact is at Caledonia as an example the government has already returned land, including the land occupied. Few know about it. The government doesn't have to tell anyone what they are doing (and don't most the time).

[charter.rights]

Depends on what they want... let's see them try to reclaim Toronto and occupying banks, businesses, etc. They would be cleaned up rather quickly.

Take a guess what a concrete truck full of quick hardening concrete would do to a sanitary sewer in downtown Toronto.....

Not all revolutions need to be armed revolutions.

And given that the majority of our infrastructure and major transportation runs through reserves all over Canada, they are in good shape to make some effective disruptions.

[charter.rights]

A question is how much taxes would the avg Canadian have to pay before they want these laws changed? I think any noticable tax impact would add much public support for changing the laws.

It is worth costing out what we currently pay for the average tax payer for the first nations. Perhaps, if that was more public, more folks would be for abolishing the current tax subsidies?

Does anyone know the current stats?

We pay nothing towards First Nations. All the money they receive is drawn from the interest on the $2 trillion First Nations Trust account. The annual interest is about $35 billion and it is paid for by corporate taxes and by royalties on gas, oil and timber extracted from their land.

[Martin Chriton]

You are out of touch with the political reality in Canada.

The fact is at Caledonia as an example the government has already returned land, including the land occupied. Few know about it. The government doesn't have to tell anyone what they are doing (and don't most the time).

What *specially* do you think Canadian's should pay first natives? You throughout 75 trillion or some other bogus number. If you think Canadian's will pay that you're out to lunch.

Most Canadian won't agree with anything that noticeably impacts their tax bill or property.

[dre]

You are out of touch with the political reality in Canada.

The fact is at Caledonia as an example the government has already returned land, including the land occupied. Few know about it. The government doesn't have to tell anyone what they are doing (and don't most the time).

The question is, will any of them want to live on it? Indians are fleeing reserves and band councils and trying to make lives for themselves. Last I read less than 40% of them remain. The only reason indian reserves still exist is because natives living on reserve are only allowed to sell to other natives. Otherwise they would have long ago sold it all off for cash. Same thing goes for treaty lands... theyll sell all that land back to us unless they are prevented from doing so, and end up with nothing again.

[charter.rights]

What *specially* do you think Canadian's should pay first natives? You throughout 75 trillion or some other bogus number. If you think Canadian's will pay that you're out to lunch.

Most Canadian won't agree with anything that noticeably impacts their tax bill or property.

What is paid depends on the claim and the loss of use payments negotiated.

Th $77 trillion for Ontario comes from the Supreme Court's formula for determining fair value for lands claims settlements. They prescribe that the fair value is as follows:

1. The value of land at the time is was occupied without a surrender, PLUS compounded interest set out by schedule set by an Order in Council from 1820 to the present, PLUS loss of use determined on the potential use of the land for the years is was not in the possession of the First Nation,

OR

2. The fair market value of the land at the present (time of settlement) as improved (with all buildings and development) PLUS loss of use determined on the potential use of the land for the years is was not in the possession of the First Nation,

whichever is less.

A 300 acre parcel worth $14,000 in 1820 would be valued at $1 billion today. The Haldimand Tract which was set aside for the exclusive use of Six Nations has a current value of $14 trillion today. While these values are huge, they are nonetheless complicated settlements that will require other creative ways of paying off the First Nation. In the end, one way or the other we still have to find a settlement with them.

[Martin Chriton]

Th $77 trillion for Ontario comes from the Supreme Court's formula for determining fair value for lands claims settlements. They prescribe that the fair value is as follows:

So in your opinion, Canadian's should pay a small minority $77 trillion? 77 trillion / 33 million = $2 333 333 per Canadian.

Obviously, Canadian's won't agree to that, hence that idea isn't viable.

In the end, one way or the other we still have to find a settlement with them.

Depends on how you look at it:

* Longer things take the weaker the claims become.

* Laws will over time be adjusted to match values most canadian's believe in (e.g.: we're all equal no two classes of people)

Personally, I'd be happy with downscaling some of the current agreements.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Martin Chriton

[charter.rights]

The question is, will any of them want to live on it? Indians are fleeing reserves and band councils and trying to make lives for themselves. Last I read less than 40% of them remain. The only reason indian reserves still exist is because natives living on reserve are only allowed to sell to other natives. Otherwise they would have long ago sold it all off for cash. Same thing goes for treaty lands... theyll sell all that land back to us unless they are prevented from doing so, and end up with nothing again.

Not so quick.

Many reserves closer to urban areas are becoming economic hubs and people are flocking back to them. They are creating new businesses / corporations competing internationally. They are creating their own banking institutions and markets. Small remote reserves are still needing to catch up. But once they find their commercial cash cow they will be able to join the rest.

A recent Supreme Court ruling held that investments on reserve are non-taxable. Reserves could become the new tax shelter for those living off reserve.

[charter.rights]

So in your opinion, Canadian's should pay a small minority $77 trillion? 77 trillion / 33 million = $2 333 333 per Canadian.

Obviously, Canadian's won't agree to that, hence that idea isn't viable.

I don't bite your straw man argument.

But we'll never know about any settlements. We can't be party to the negotiations or the court approved settlements. This is all about the law, not public opinion or your feelings....

When was the last time that we heard about a land claim settlement? Harper has apparently settled 130 since taking office.

Edited December 13, 2011 by charter.rights

[dre]

Not so quick.

Many reserves closer to urban areas are becoming economic hubs and people are flocking back to them. They are creating new businesses / corporations competing internationally. They are creating their own banking institutions and markets. Small remote reserves are still needing to catch up. But once they find their commercial cash cow they will be able to join the rest.

A recent Supreme Court ruling held that investments on reserve are non-taxable. Reserves could become the new tax shelter for those living off reserve.

I dunno. Everything Iv read suggests the numbers are sinking pretty fast. Even if there is investment the problem is indians with jobs dont want to live there. Our local band, provides indians with a piece of land and 30k to get started building a house, and they cant get natives to invest. Mainly because theres not only restrictions on who they can sell the land to, but its almost impossible for them to put their homes up as collateral for other loans. The dwellings that ARE going up are mostly used mobiles. Natives are getting smart, and theyre moving into the cities to make their own way and lots of them are doing very well. For the most part the ones that CAN leave and build in a normal realestate market are.

Even if the reserves were thriving places, the reality is they never really own the land they live on there and can never sell it on the open market. Since most families retire on the equity in their homes this a major problem for natives. They could change the rules and allow natives to sell their land on the open market, but then the reserves (many of them pretty prime realestate would be mostly owned by whites within a generation.

This is a good thing for everyone IMO. Hopefully the trend increases until the reserves are empty.