Conservatives to force Air Canada workers back to work

[cybercoma]

If the government wants Air Canada to be extension of government policy and the Official Languages Act, it should pony up and pay for it. Not expect Air Canada bear the burden while at the same time demand that it be profitable while in direct competition with companies that have no such responsibilities.

Air Canada exists because it was funded and built by the taxpayers. Although it's "private" now, part of the deal to the shareholders was that they would abide by certain demands of the original owners. This is perfectly fair, imo.

[capricorn]

Air Canada exists because it was funded and built by the taxpayers. Although it's "private" now, part of the deal to the shareholders was that they would abide by certain demands of the original owners. This is perfectly fair, imo.

Let's see if I understand your point cybercoma. By original owners you mean the government and taxpayers. Does this correctly represent your post? If yes, would a certain demand of the government/taxpayers include, for example, uninterrupted service?

[Wilber]

Air Canada exists because it was funded and built by the taxpayers. Although it's "private" now, part of the deal to the shareholders was that they would abide by certain demands of the original owners. This is perfectly fair, imo.

It was funded and built by government. It was privatized by government on the government's terms. The airline had no say in the matter. If government policy prevents it from being competitive, it is up to government to change its policy. It seems that this government is expecting the employees to bear the burden, not the shareholders, management or government.

[Wilber]

Let's see if I understand your point cybercoma. By original owners you mean the government and taxpayers. Does this correctly represent your post? If yes, would a certain demand of the government/taxpayers include, for example, uninterrupted service?

Since when do you expect to control something you no longer own? Who do you think sold the shares to the shareholders?

[TimG]

If government policy prevents it from being competitive, it is up to government to change its policy. It seems that this government is expecting the employees to bear the burden, not the shareholders, management or government.

Could you explain how government mandates makes Air Canada less competitive than other Canadian airlines? I find it hard to believe that keeping the HQ in Quebec is a huge burden.

[cybercoma]

Let's see if I understand your point cybercoma. By original owners you mean the government and taxpayers. Does this correctly represent your post? If yes, would a certain demand of the government/taxpayers include, for example, uninterrupted service?

Is uninterrupted service written into the Act that made Air Canada publically traded?

[capricorn]

Is uninterrupted service written into the Act that made Air Canada publically traded?

I take it your answer to my question is "no".

[cybercoma]

I take it your answer to my question is "no".

The original owners, the taxpayers/government, made an agreement when they privatized Air Canada. The new owners (shareholders/board of directors) were required to follow certain rules, as outlined in the Air Canada Public Participation Act (ACPPA). This was the terms of sale, if you will. I don't know if "uninterrupted service", as you say, was part of those terms. When I have more time, maybe I will go through the ACPPA to see. Otherwise, the taxpayers/government have no say in the day-to-day operations of Air Canada any more than they would in WestJet or Porter. They had their shot at their say when creating the conditions of sale, otherwise known as the ACPPA.

[Handsome Rob]

Could you explain how government mandates makes Air Canada less competitive than other Canadian airlines? I find it hard to believe that keeping the HQ in Quebec is a huge burden.

-You think operating costs in Montreal are cheaper than Calgary for HQ? YUL is one of the most expensive bases in the country.

-Keeping three heavy maintanance bases open when one will do, and most US competition has none. (El Salvador) They were lucky to get to Aveos subcontracting, but it still costs more.

-Guaranteeing french service for some 7,000 FA's that can only work 80 hrs a month isn't cheap.

-Printing of all materials from in flight magazines that change monthly to in flight safety cards in two languages, no Aeroplan generic mass production, we need a custom order. Not going to start on cockpit materials like SOP/COM.

-Settling of lawsuits from asinine passengers who weren't offered a 7up en francais.

WestJet's profit in Q3 just over 30 million dollars, for an arbitrary number say 200 million a year. All these little things can add up very quickly to overtake the razor thin profit margins like that. Especially in a company encumbered by more DB pensioners than employees...

[Wilber]

Could you explain how government mandates makes Air Canada less competitive than other Canadian airlines? I find it hard to believe that keeping the HQ in Quebec is a huge burden.

You are right in that the head office location is not that important. Canadian Airline's head office was Calgary, Wardair's was Edmonton, although Toronto and Vancouver were the biggest bases for both. The same goes for Air Canada, particularly since the acquisition of Canadian Airlines and its Pacific routes, Vancouver offices and heavy maintenance facilities. Among other things, even though Toronto and Vancouver make the most sense when it comes to an operational point of view, the Act requires Air Canada to have overhaul and heavy maintenance establishments in Montreal, Toronto and Winnipeg. Scattering operations around the country may make sense from a political point of view but it is very expensive for a company to duplicate operations in different centers.

The Act also requires Air Canada to abide by the Official Languages Act as though it was a government entity. Very expensive and not required of its competitors.

[Wilber]

--Keeping three heavy maintanance bases open when one will do, and most US competition has none. (El Salvador) They were lucky to get to Aveos subcontracting, but it still costs more.

-

Lucky? Aveos was Air Canada's Montreal heavy maintenance department. It was spun off by ACE and Air Canada made a captive customer to ensure its profitability. It was part of the rape of Air Canada assets which also included Aeroplan and Jazz.

[Handsome Rob]

Lucky? Aveos was Air Canada's Montreal heavy maintenance department. It was spun off by ACE and Air Canada made a captive customer to ensure its profitability. It was part of the rape of Air Canada assets which also included Aeroplan and Jazz.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/reports.html

Cost in millions:

2007 - Aircraft maintenance, materials and supplies 173

2008 - Aircraft maintenance 157

Getting paid money to save money? Where is the evidence that ACTS was profitable for them? It isn't Aeroplan. When MTE contracts expire in 2013, what is stopping them from moving much of it to a more cost friendly location?

It's going to be ugly, but to save AC I think it is going to take drastic measures.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Handsome Rob

[cybercoma]

The Act also requires Air Canada to abide by the Official Languages Act as though it was a government entity. Very expensive and not required of its competitors.

Its competitors also didn't have the benefit of being built from the ground up by the taxpayers. The ACPPA was a condition of sale. People didn't buy into this not knowing the rules going in.

[Rick]

"Air Canada strike could lead to labour code change"

According to Lisa Rait, I have a feeling if it comes down to that, that we'll see a very violent shift in this country towards conservative politicians...lets hope it doesn't come down to that though

I hope it does.

It's what is needed to rid this country of the right wing vermin.

[Wilber]

Its competitors also didn't have the benefit of being built from the ground up by the taxpayers. The ACPPA was a condition of sale. People didn't buy into this not knowing the rules going in.

So what. There is no doubt in my mind that investors should have avoided Air Canada stock like the plague but this is coming from someone who thinks anyone who buys any airline shares without a gun to their head needs a sanity check.

You don't seem to understand the process here. The government built a crown corporation called Air Canada. At a later date it decided it didn't want to be in the airline business anymore so it put a value on the company, issued shares which reflected that value and sold them to investors. That money went into government (your) coffers. You were paid for it, you don't own it anymore, yet you act as though you still do.

Two questions for you.

1. If you were to build and then sell a company, do you think you should still have the right to continue putting conditions on that company which could prevent it from being profitable or even viable?

2. Do you think the employees of that company should have to bear the burden of complying with those conditions by giving up their pay and working conditions?

Edited October 13, 2011 by Wilber

[Wilber]

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/reports.html

Cost in millions:

2007 - Aircraft maintenance, materials and supplies 173

2008 - Aircraft maintenance 157

Getting paid money to save money? Where is the evidence that ACTS was profitable for them? It isn't Aeroplan. When MTE contracts expire in 2013, what is stopping them from moving much of it to a more cost friendly location?

It's going to be ugly, but to save AC I think it is going to take drastic measures.

I would be surprised if they did move. I think the political pressure to maintain operations in Montreal will be too great, regardless of how much sense it makes or costs the company.

[Battletoads]

Looks like the Cons non-existent gun control and antagonistic labour policies are having their intended effect.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/13/ottawa-air-canada-spoksperson-home.html

There will be more to come no doubt, as the cons press on with their anti-middle class agenda.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Battletoads

[olp1fan]

Looks like the Cons non-existent gun control and antagonistic labour policies are having their intended effect.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/13/ottawa-air-canada-spoksperson-home.html

There will be more to come no doubt, as the cons press on with their anti-middle class agenda.

I hope this happens more often

You can only bully the population so much before the pot boils over

Harper better smarten up or else he will create a very dangerous situation for his party

and to be honest, I would be happy if someone took matters into their own hands

when our rights are being attacked by an ideological government there is only one thing you can do

and that is FIGHT

Harper, do the right thing and let them handle this with the corporations

[Wilber]

I hope this happens more often

You can only bully the population so much before the pot boils over

Harper better smarten up or else he will create a very dangerous situation for his party

and to be honest, I would be happy if someone took matters into their own hands

when our rights are being attacked by an ideological government there is only one thing you can do

and that is FIGHT

Harper, do the right thing and let them handle this with the corporations

Why do expect someone else to do what you are so passionate about?

[olp1fan]

Why do expect someone else to do what you are so passionate about?

because I don't want to die or get arrested

[Wilber]

because I don't want to die or get arrested

But it is OK if someone else does.

[olp1fan]

But it is OK if someone else does.

I'd rather watch history than be a part of it

If someone gets mad enough that they do something about it I will get popcorn

Edited October 13, 2011 by olp1fan

[Wilber]

I'd rather watch history than be a part of it

If someone gets mad enough that they do something about it I will get popcorn

If everyone took that position there would be no history and no popcorn.

[olp1fan]

If everyone took that position there would be no history and no popcorn.

True, but I want to see how Breaking Bad ends

revolution will have to be put off until then

[cybercoma]

Some random person shows up with a gun out of nowhere and the security guard chases him off. Meanwhile, no one else saw this alleged gunman?

It's not raining; you're pissing on my leg.