BC votes to get rid of the HST

[Pliny]

IOW - you want to make the tax system a lot less efficient. Tax systems need a broad base with multiple sources of revenue. An efficient system should be collecting as much in consumption taxes as it collects in incomes taxes.

Also, tax systems that depend too much on income taxes are also very bad for democracy because the majority of voters will be paying little or no tax. This encourages corruption and waste because the people paying the bills are not the ones setting the policies.

dre likes to follow the traditional Keynesian economic model, not unpopular with econometric economists and politicians who like to think if not for them there would be no jobs and economies would be forever in the toilet.

[CitizenX]

I think the federal government should send a bill of $400 to each person in BC for reimbursement of the $1.6 billion subsidy. Why should other Canadians pay for the folly of BC voters?

Woooooo now your a little off your rocker on this one. It was the folly of the BC Neo-Liberals not the voters. Voters asked Campbell if the HST was on the radar, he said no. He got voted in and then implemented the tax. If he had been honest and had public debates on the issue before bringing in this unwanted tax the whole clusterflux would never of happened. Bill Them

Think before you speak.

Edited August 28, 2011 by CitizenX

[kimmy]

I guess that'd be the majority of voters in BC then?

Pretty much. John Q Public is always mad about something, and BC politics is pretty wack to start with.

John Q Public hates Gordon Campbell, hates taxes, and was only too happy to buy into the disinformation spread by "the Zalm".

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore and my cup of Tim's costs 8 cents more than it did 2 years ago and I'm going to teach them a lesson!!!"

Yippee! We taught 'em a lesson! Now we just have to give $1.6 billion back to the feds, saddle our businesses with the costs of the PST, and then we can sit back and enjoy the 8 cents we're saving on our coffees. Life is good.

-k

[CitizenX]

Pretty much. John Q Public is always mad about something, and BC politics is pretty wack to start with.

John Q Public hates Gordon Campbell, hates taxes, and was only too happy to buy into the disinformation spread by "the Zalm".

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore and my cup of Tim's costs 8 cents more than it did 2 years ago and I'm going to teach them a lesson!!!"

Yippee! We taught 'em a lesson! Now we just have to give $1.6 billion back to the feds, saddle our businesses with the costs of the PST, and then we can sit back and enjoy the 8 cents we're saving on our coffees. Life is good.

-k

I really don't know why you are blaming "John Q Public" for this clusterflux ??? It was a great day for BC Democracy and a bad day for the BC Corporatocracy

Edited August 28, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

I really don't know why you are blaming "John Q Public" for this clusterflux ???

They were the ones that voted. Blaming Campbell is as silly as blaming a DUI on the bartender. Provocation is not an excuse.

[scouterjim]

Sad day for BC. Other taxes will be introduced or existing taxes increased and services will be cut - which ones will you vote for?

The Liberals lost their leader over this; wasn't that punishment enough for the arrogant way it was introduced? Demanding more is cutting off your nose to spite your face. The guy that really peed me off was Chris Delaney. What's his excuse for getting on this anti-HST bandwagon?

More than 54% of any population doesn't have too much truck with macro-economics and economic theory.

When politicians don't we are in trouble. Vander Zalm, Dix, Delaney, and even Chrisitie Clark who allowed the referendum out of political expediency - a pox on them all. If the NDP had gotten elected they would not have gotten rid of the HST at all and perhaps that would have been the best coursse of action for the public - for an election to have been called.

ScouterJim there is happy for himself along with the 54% of those who like to see other people pay taxes but not themselves. Gosh, do you think now the price of things will go down? Corporations do have to get their tax money from someone, after all. I wonder where they get it from? He thinks he is getting away with paying less if corporations are taxed. Yep, yep I shouldn't have to pay taxes the rich should pay, yep yep. It's only right. What a noddy!

Well, it's all water under the bridge now. The worst is yet to come.

Pliny, I have no problem paying my taxes. I do however object to paying taxes for billion dollar corporations.

[CitizenX]

They were the ones that voted. Blaming Campbell is as silly as blaming a DUI on the bartender. Provocation is not an excuse.

WOW......Not even close.

It's like a voter asking someone that is trying to get re-elected "hey are you planning to bring in a tax we are unfamiliar with and don't like the looks of". And the guy trying get re-elected lying to the voter and saying "Hey, no way, we aren't even looking at this tax". Then after getting elected going against what he told the voter, and bringing in the tax. OK not only that, the voter finds out through freedom of information that this guy he just elected was planning to bring it in all along.

Then when the voter stands up against what was not only deceitful but more importantly against the voters wishes. Then the voter gets blamed for this mess by guys like you?????

Edited August 28, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

WOW......Not even close.

Sorry. It is exactly the same. Policies like taxation are more important than the personalities of politicians. If it is a good policy it is a good policy no matter how it was brought in. Now I can understand why some people were upset at the way it was brought it but that Campbell is now gone because of how he handled it. If many voters were too immature to separate their annoyance with a particular politician with a decision on a tax policy then that is a problem with the voters - not the politician. Edited August 28, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Sorry. It is exactly the same. Policies like taxation are more important than the personalities of politicians. If it is a good policy it is a good policy no matter how it was brought in. Now I can understand why some people were upset at the way it was brought it but that Campbell is now gone because of how he handled it. If many voters were too immature to separate their annoyance with a particular politician with a decision on a tax policy then that is a problem with the voters - not the politician.

I really find it hard to believe that you believe what you say. In fact I don't believe it

If it was such a good policy

1. Why was Campbell so dishonest about it?
   
2. Why wasn't there a public debate on such a big issue?
   
3. Why the big rush to bring it in?
   
4. Why after Clark came in all the simplistic propaganda pushing for it instead of an open and public debate?
   
5. Why again did Clark refuse a debate against Adrian Dix just before the referendum?
   

You don't run from something you believe in, so whats the problem?

The BC Neo-Liberals want to bring in a major tax change but don't want to discuss it with anyone?

Trust us we are politicians....and don't ask any tuff questions.

P.S. don't blame all this on Campbell, the whole BC Neo-Liberal party is to blame. If you don't stand up against something you are just as guilty.

Edited August 28, 2011 by CitizenX

[Wilber]

Sorry. It is exactly the same. Policies like taxation are more important than the personalities of politicians. If it is a good policy it is a good policy no matter how it was brought in. Now I can understand why some people were upset at the way it was brought it but that Campbell is now gone because of how he handled it. If many voters were too immature to separate their annoyance with a particular politician with a decision on a tax policy then that is a problem with the voters - not the politician.

This vote outcome wasn't the result of Gordon Campbell's personality, it was the result of a breach of trust by government. This better be understood or we will end up going through the same thing again one day. The kind of contempt for the voter you are expressing was what got this government into trouble in the first place.

[CitizenX]

This vote outcome wasn't the result of Gordon Campbell's personality, it was the result of a breach of trust by government. This better be understood or we will end up going through the same thing again one day. The kind of contempt for the voter you are expressing was what got this government into trouble in the first place.

I hope the BC voter's don't get fooled by Campbell's resignation. It was a Party Clusterflux, and the whole party should take the blame. How good is their memory???? There is some talk about a fall election if HST is voted down, so maybe we will see. This would be a nail in the coffin of the BC Neo-Liberals.

$3 billion price tag on dismantling the HST, that should make a few voters angry..yaaa?

The cost of taking voters for granted

You know what Wilber, I'm starting to think that TimG is really a conservative living in Ontario, and knows nothing about what he's talking about.

Edited August 29, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

The kind of contempt for the voter you are expressing was what got this government into trouble in the first place.

Actually, I seperate the two issues. I can agree that the Libs fumbled the ball badly. Campbell was forced to resign in disgrace because of it. But I also say that voters should have been able to seperate their disgust at the way the tax was brought in from the merits of the policy itself. A large block of voters could not do this and that is why it lost. Edited August 29, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

But I also say that voters should have been able to seperate their disgust at the way the tax was brought in from the merits of the policy itself.

How are they to know what the merits of the policy are if the government would debate them with another view of the so called facts?? Your on a sinking ship....SS bad argument.

[Wilber]

Actually, I seperate the two issues. I can agree that the Libs fumbled the ball badly. Campbell was forced to resign in disgrace because of it. But I also say that voters should have been able to seperate their disgust at the way the tax was brought in from the merits of the policy itself. A large block of voters could not do this and that is why it lost.

That's your problem, you can't comprehend that someone else could also separate the issues and come to a different conclusion, therefore they are slaves to their dislike of Campbell and stupid. Big mistake, just like the one Campbell made.

[Smallc]

That's your problem, you can't comprehend that someone else could also separate the issues and come to a different conclusion,

This tax was good for BC and Canada overall. The voters did come to the wrong decision.

[CitizenX]

This tax was good for BC and Canada overall. The voters did come to the wrong decision.

How do you know ? Because you read some report done by the BC business community or some right wing think tank (pretty much the same thing) ?

People that are secure in their beliefs don't hide in the shadows and refuse to discuss those beliefs.

Edited August 29, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

That's your problem, you can't comprehend that someone else could also separate the issues and come to a different conclusion, therefore they are slaves to their dislike of Campbell and stupid. Big mistake, just like the one Campbell made.

Did you notice I qualified my comments with "a large block of voters". I know many people did make the decision based on their perception of the merits of the policy even if they voted down the HST. But many did not - I suspect enough to tip the balance to a rejection. Edited August 29, 2011 by TimG

[TimG]

How do you know ? Because you read some report done by the BC business community or some right wing think tank (pretty much the same thing) ?

Because every economist who has looked at VATS and sale taxes implemented around the world has concluded the same thing: a VAT is a more efficient tax and better for the economy.

In fact, if you look at the Fight HST website you will find that they agree that a VAT is a more efficent tax. Instead they whine about timing and make false statements about "fairness".

Edited August 29, 2011 by TimG

[Wilber]

[iquote name=TimG' date='28 August 2011 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1314578829' post='704071]

Did you notice I qualified my comments with "a large block of voters". I know many people did make the decision based on their perception of the merits of the policy even if they voted down the HST. But many did not - I suspect enough to tip the balance to a rejection.

You "suspect". Oh very well

[Wilber]

This tax was good for BC and Canada overall. The voters did come to the wrong decision.

Possibly. I think that may be the case but the voters have spoken. Time to move on.

[msj]

While I prefer the HST over the PST I can understand why many people would vote to extinguish it and really am tired of the ad hominem attacks on this group of people as being stupid or ignorant.

It was stupid of the BC Liberals (of which I support) to bring in the tax the way they did.

Taxation is not merely about doing the right thing economically: one has to sell it politically.

This was not done in the beginninge, and when the referendum came about, was done very poorly.

The "no, keep HST" side can only blame themselves for being so poorly prepared in selling a tax that has so much logic on its side.

My hope is that the BC Liberals are able to learn a lesson here and win the next election.

Keeping the NDP out of power is far more important than whether or not we keep the HST.

So lets hope the BC Liberals get their political mojo back or we are all screwed.

[Smallc]

Taxation is not merely about doing the right thing economically: one has to sell it politically.

Because people are stupid and or ignorant.

[Wilber]

Because people are stupid and or ignorant.

Yup, just tell people they are stupid and or ignorant when they don't buy what you are selling. A sure fire formula for success.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Wilber

[msj]

Because people are stupid and or ignorant.

No, because there is more to taxation then some economist promising people that this tax is good because of X,Y, and Z.

And with you "no, keep the HST" guys being such arrogant pricks and assuming these people are stupid or ignorant just goes to show exactly why we lost the HST in the first place.

Thanks to BC Liberal arrogance a good tax is likely not to come to BC for a long time, if ever.

Let's hope they have been chastened enough to come to their senses and beat the NDP in the next election.

[CitizenX]

My hope is that the BC Liberals are able to learn a lesson here and win the next election.

You better hope the BC voter's have a short memory, and the BC Neo-Liberals don't call a fall election.