"NDP prepares to drop 'socialism' reference"

[cybercoma]

I absolutely love the warmth of vacuum tubes. You just don't get that with modern electronics. And I don't mean the heat emitting from them, but the warm tone.

Edited June 21, 2011 by cybercoma

[Bonam]

Try fabricating anything made of steel without skilled labour...Without those tradesmen,the engineering firms that plan these things have alot of paper lying around.

Well, actually, as an engineer, I've fabricated plenty of my own prototypes from steel, aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, ceramics, quartz glass, and other materials myself. Not that I'd want to be spending all my time fabricating crap of course, but you might be surprised how many engineers have a good hands on fabrication skillset which they can use in a pinch.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Bonam

[cybercoma]

Well, actually, as an engineer, I've fabricated plenty of my own prototypes from steel, aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, ceramics, quartz glass, and other materials myself. Not that I'd want to be spending all my time fabricating crap of course, but you might be surprised how many engineers have a good hands on fabrication skillset which they can use in a pinch.

Nonsense. You need an employer to be able to use your labour.

[RNG]

Nonsense. You need an employer to be able to use your labour.

He does have an employer, himself. I have worked for a company that I 100% owned for the past 15 years or so.

Edited June 21, 2011 by RNG

[ToadBrother]

To have a proper debate, it's always good to define terms. There are some nuances attached to each term but in general:

1) Communism - everything is owned and run by the state with the proceeds divided equally among its citizens.

Um, technically, in Marxism, everything is owned by everybody, hence the "Communism". Now obviously it's never worked like that in fact, at least not very well, but still...

2) Socialism - everything is owned and run by the state with people treated "equitably" as opposed to equally. There's a recognition of sorts that some jobs are worth more and some people work harder.

I know you split it up down below, but I have a problem with separating socialism from social democratic movements and the like. Everything from Communism to near-centrist social democratic movements are technically socialist.

...

Do they want to be Democratic Socialists or do they want to be Social Democrats? There's no doubt they would move Canada Left.....but how far Left...and based on what principles? Putting aside all the political platitudes - what exactly, would the "new" Canada look like?

The real pity here is that classic liberalism has all but died. It sat neatly between socialism (even democratic socialism) and conservativism and capitalism. I'd give a lot for a Gladstone.

Edited June 21, 2011 by ToadBrother

[Guest Derek L]

Well, actually, as an engineer, I've fabricated plenty of my own prototypes from steel, aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, ceramics, quartz glass, and other materials myself. Not that I'd want to be spending all my time fabricating crap of course, but you might be surprised how many engineers have a good hands on fabrication skillset which they can use in a pinch.

You make a good point Bonam, I’m sure many of the engineers at Boeing could build the aircraft that they design, perhaps not as quickly at first as the line machinists, but could the same be said about the skilled labour, designing an aircraft? I wouldn’t want to fly a wide-body designed by a welder……

Well I’m on the aeronautical theme, BAE recently did (and has since been cancelled do to cost overruns) the RAF’s Nimrod upgrade……basically strip excisting airframes and rebuild…….what was found though as the aircraft we’re being stripped was that no two wing-spars we’re constructed the same when originally built(fault of skilled labour)….this lead to having to “wing-it” (pun intended) on the replacement of the wings on each individual aircraft, which in turn lead to disgusting cost overruns…..And finally cancellation.

The same can be said about our Navy’s Halifax class frigates…….well designed ships, but there is a difference in quality between the ships built in Nova Scotia & Quebec…….again the fault of “skilled labour”

A neighbour of mine is a manger down at the BC Brewers distributor….a huge warehouse, with acres of square footage devoted to beer……currently they employ dozens of union forklift operators….even though the site is only a few years old, they still rely on individuals unloading, stacking, sorting and then loading beer on to trucks…..they have have frequent accidents, damage of goods and theft……Now the advancements in robotics have allowed them to plan to replace nearly the entire staff with machines doing the job that is currently done by humans……robots will be used to unload, stack, sort and load all future shipments……24/7, 365 days a year……..That is truly progress.

[RNG]

The real pity here is that classic liberalism has all but died. It sat neatly between socialism (even democratic socialism) and conservativism and capitalism. I'd give a lot for a Gladstone.

I find it fascinating that "liberal" used to mean what we now think about non-wingnut libertarians. Small government, self reliance, free enterprise and so on. How that has drifted through the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

[cybercoma]

You make a good point Bonam, I’m sure many of the engineers at Boeing could build the aircraft that they design, perhaps not as quickly at first as the line machinists, but could the same be said about the skilled labour, designing an aircraft? I wouldn’t want to fly a wide-body designed by a welder……

Well I’m on the aeronautical theme, BAE recently did (and has since been cancelled do to cost overruns) the RAF’s Nimrod upgrade……basically strip excisting airframes and rebuild…….what was found though as the aircraft we’re being stripped was that no two wing-spars we’re constructed the same when originally built(fault of skilled labour)….this lead to having to “wing-it” (pun intended) on the replacement of the wings on each individual aircraft, which in turn lead to disgusting cost overruns…..And finally cancellation.

The same can be said about our Navy’s Halifax class frigates…….well designed ships, but there is a difference in quality between the ships built in Nova Scotia & Quebec…….again the fault of “skilled labour”

A neighbour of mine is a manger down at the BC Brewers distributor….a huge warehouse, with acres of square footage devoted to beer……currently they employ dozens of union forklift operators….even though the site is only a few years old, they still rely on individuals unloading, stacking, sorting and then loading beer on to trucks…..they have have frequent accidents, damage of goods and theft……Now the advancements in robotics have allowed them to plan to replace nearly the entire staff with machines doing the job that is currently done by humans……robots will be used to unload, stack, sort and load all future shipments……24/7, 365 days a year……..That is truly progress.

You know people travelled from southern China through polynesia to New Zealand and finally Hawaii thousands of years ago by boat?

I wonder who their employers were.

[RNG]

You know people travelled from southern China through polynesia to New Zealand and finally Hawaii thousands of years ago by boat?

I wonder who their employers were.

I wonder how much money they made.

[Bonam]

Nonsense. You need an employer to be able to use your labour.

Well, I did do that labour for various employers. Among them, TRIUMF, UW, and a small startup I recently started working at. The nature of the jobs involved designing and building prototype experimental equipment.

[Bonam]

You make a good point Bonam, I’m sure many of the engineers at Boeing could build the aircraft that they design, perhaps not as quickly at first as the line machinists, but could the same be said about the skilled labour, designing an aircraft? I wouldn’t want to fly a wide-body designed by a welder….

Well, naturally not. Of course, if an engineer was to devote all their time to production, they'd become a technician themselves effectively, even if they maintained their original skills and knowledge in the back of their head somewhere. Labour, both skilled and unskilled, is of course necessary to produce all the products and services that we have in our society. I have a lot of respect for the technicians and machinists that can produce the things I design quickly and efficiently. In fact, skilled labourers like the ones you mention, at Boeing for example, make quite a respectable salary, certainly on par with some engineers.

[Guest Derek L]

You know people travelled from southern China through polynesia to New Zealand and finally Hawaii thousands of years ago by boat?

I wonder who their employers were.

Perhaps the members of CUPE/CPWU/CAW should show the same sprit and go out on their own instead of being indentured to slave masters like Canada Post and General Motors….nobody is forcing them to work……nor is anyone keeping them from forming a co-operative workers paradise…..

[Wild Bill]

I find it fascinating that "liberal" used to mean what we now think about non-wingnut libertarians. Small government, self reliance, free enterprise and so on. How that has drifted through the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

Hey, I'm still here! All alone, maybe. The world's only classic liberal hippy!

The fact that so many posters call me a conservative proves your point about drift.

[cybercoma]

I wonder how much money they made.

They also travelled to Madagascar. So they made enough to populate nearly 3/4 of the planet.

[Guest Derek L]

They also travelled to Madagascar. So they made enough to populate nearly 3/4 of the planet.

Where the Pyramids built with union labour?

[Guest Derek L]

Well, naturally not. Of course, if an engineer was to devote all their time to production, they'd become a technician themselves effectively, even if they maintained their original skills and knowledge in the back of their head somewhere. Labour, both skilled and unskilled, is of course necessary to produce all the products and services that we have in our society. I have a lot of respect for the technicians and machinists that can produce the things I design quickly and efficiently. In fact, skilled labourers like the ones you mention, at Boeing for example, make quite a respectable salary, certainly on par with some engineers.

So you would agree that line workers are hardly modern day serfs?

[Evening Star]

I know you split it up down below, but I have a problem with separating socialism from social democratic movements and the like. Everything from Communism to near-centrist social democratic movements are technically socialist.

I'm going to i) break character and write something serious and ii) register a rare moment of disagreement with you, TB. When we're no longer talking about collectivized ownership (as opposed to taxing and regulating private ownership) of the commanding heights of the economy with an actual alteration of the fundamental power structures and property relations in capitalism, we're no longer talking about socialism in any classic sense, right? We're just talking about varying degrees of government intervention within capitalism, I would think? The difference between Clement Attlee's Labour and Tony Blair's Labour seems pretty profound to me, more so than the difference between New Labour and the UK Conservatives, actually (or between the CPC and NDP).

Edited June 22, 2011 by Evening Star

[Jack Weber]

Well, actually, as an engineer, I've fabricated plenty of my own prototypes from steel, aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, ceramics, quartz glass, and other materials myself. Not that I'd want to be spending all my time fabricating crap of course, but you might be surprised how many engineers have a good hands on fabrication skillset which they can use in a pinch.

Sadly,I've seen alot of engineers who could'nt jam their thumbs up their butts without a computer program...

[Wild Bill]

Sadly,I've seen alot of engineers who could'nt jam their thumbs up their butts without a computer program...

Br fair, Jack! Yes, there are lots of engineers as you describe. In the electronics field, I've also met many technicians who couldn't run a maze with their shoes off! Rats were smarter than them!

BTW, those types tended to come from the Devry Institute...JMHO.

[Bonam]

Sadly,I've seen alot of engineers who could'nt jam their thumbs up their butts without a computer program...

That's definitely true too. A lot depends on what university program they came from probably. In my case, I probably put in a good 400-600 hours of machining throughout my undergrad as part of various curricular and extra-curricular projects. And then in grad school, working in a hands-on lab, we had to make a lot of our own experimental equipment.

Definitely the most challenging material I've worked with was the quartz glass. After that, making things out of metal feels like easy mode.

It's actually been a really helpful skillset. A lot of engineers design stuff that looks good in a 3d modeling program but is impossible or very impractical to actually fabricate. I at least have enough experience to be able to look at those models and be able to see if they are practical to make or not, and how they should be changed if not. Saves a lot of time going back and forth when we send designs out now to be fabricated.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Bonam

[bloodyminded]

What a load of crap! You are stupid. It takes someone to risk his own money, put his life and family in jeopardy to try and start a business. You chichen-shit bastard. Did you ever do this? Who have you ever made a job for? So STFU.

Oooh, someone's a little sensitive. It's good that you remain true to your principles of defending the victimized minority of wealth and power against the evil and stupid overwhelming majority of humanity....all a bunch of dumb-ass leeches, in the world of Ayn Rand acolytes.

The most class-conscious and elitist bunch of "intellects" outside the ancient monarchies, to which they share sharply similar ideological sensibilities.

Labour without an employer? What a joke.

Employer without labour is even funnier...thanks to your own formulation.

Edited June 26, 2011 by bloodyminded