Postal Strike Imminent

Shwa · June 2, 2011

From this link.....

Detailed analysis of 2006 Census findings on full-time earnings by sector and occupation show that government and public sector employees are paid roughly 8 to 17 per cent more than similarly employed individuals in the private sector. In addition, taking into account significantly higher paid benefits and shorter workweeks, the public sector total compensation advantage balloons past 30 per cent. Expressed in dollar terms, public sector employers have a combined wage and benefits bill that is $19 billion higher than if they had kept costs to private sector norms.

The federal government is the worst offender, with a wage and salary premium of 17.3 per cent (see Figure 1). Premiums paid by municipal governments are almost as severe— 11.2 per cent. Provincial governments, as a group, look comparatively good, but their wage and salary premiums are still an

unacceptably high 7.9 per cent.

http://www.cfib.ca/research/reports/rr3077.pdf

Excellent! Someone who actually provides some data. Let's take a look:

Overall for 2005, annual wages and salaries in the public sector groupings range from $45,760 to 60,924, while their respective private sector comparators earn between $41,281 and $53,170. These figures represent a nation-wide weighted average of full-time, full-year employment earnings of Canadians in upwards of 200 occupations that are common in both public and private sectors.

So the low end "gap" is about $86.00 per week salary difference and the higher end works out to be about $150.00 per week difference. Before taxes of course. Seems pretty comparable to me all within a reasonable range. In other words, no real big differences here. I am sure there are some companies that pay more for their workers than are being paid in the government. Software application developers for example. I wonder what the disparity is there?

And I wonder Guyser, from your detailed reading of the report, does it mention that since public sector employees might tend to stay in their jobs longer, that this might have an influence on the reported pay? Probably not I bet, because that might skew the numbers a bit. Just like this does:

It is important to note that this analysis focuses solely on occupations found in both the public and private sectors, as defined by Statistics Canada. Unique public sector occupations are treated as incomparable and hence, are excluded from the analysis. Excluded occupations include: teachers, professors, urban transit drivers, letter carriers, law enforcement officers, fire fighters, military personnel, elected government officials, and senior government officials such as deputy ministers, assistant deputy ministers, and director generals.

Of course you simply can't make a comparison between a "director general" or any other government executive class employee now could you? Because if they did, then the "average" would be way off the scale wouldn't it? Don't dare compare the pay scale of a national or multinational CEO or CFO with "similar" "skill sets" of Deputy Ministers or departmental CFO's because then the difference would be in the range of a piddly few grand a year, it would be in the order of hundreds of grand per year and, in some cases, over a million.

Why on earth wouldn't the 'Canadian Federation of Independent Business' make the same comparisons of private executives with public sector executives. Can you rationalize this obvious ommission from their data? CFIB don't lobby do they?

Seems public sector is living large, all the while whining about it.

Really? They are "living large" on $86.00 to $150.00 extra per week before taxes? Are they buying Porches and mansions and eating caviar every week?

No, it seems if anyone is living large it is the executive class of private industry where the wage gap between the top earners and the low level workers fuels "reports" from "idependent businessmen" that say it all isn't fair because the low level public sectors employees make slightly more than their own workers. The absence of this data is very telling.

So, since there is no real difference in wages, then the problem really must be all those benefits - you know - those extras - that were negotiated in good faith by unions and government management (i.e. director generals and above) through a perfectly legal process called 'collective bargaining.' What does the CFIB report have to say about this?

Wages and salaries are only one component of employee compensation. Other forms of compensation include paid benefits such as employer-paid contributions to pensions, deferred earnings, health insurance premiums, tuition and Employment Insurance. Although the Census does not collect data on these forms of compensation, a review of more generalized data from Statistics Canada suggest a further benefits premium in favour of the public sector equivalent to 2.5 per cent to 13.8 per cent of wages—depending on level of government or organization.

OMG! 2%-13% difference! Fire them all! They get an extra couple of days leave! Nevermind that services to Canadians are legislated by law, that greedy clerk in Revenue Canada handling tax payments to Canadians likely makes $86.00 more per week and has a couple more days off than the clerk at Mutual Insurance who is trying to find a way to avoid paying their client an insurance payout.

And let's not forget, we simply cannot compare the wages and benefits of that CEO of Mutual Insurance with the Deputy Minister of Revenue Canada because it would be totally unfair for all those Mutual Insurance workers slaving away at their petty occupations wishing they were in their dream job at Revenue Canada.

Shwa · June 2, 2011

Believe me, I know this all too well. I worked three summer student positions in three different large departments with the federal government and it was enough for me to know that I definitely didn't want a career in the public sector. I couldn't stand the thought of spending all that money on an education just to, as you so aptly put it, play office for 30-40yrs.

Then I suggest the next time your tax refund is late or misplaced, or your EI check is cut off, or your business is audited for fraud, you simple tell the government workers that they are just playing office. I mean, you should "know" because you spend three summers working in the government and figured it all out.

The funny thing is that I had also worked quite a few menial minimum wage jobs in the private sector during high school and they were actually much more challenging (and less boring) than the government jobs.

It's good to know that there will be no shortage of poorly paid ditch diggers and broom pushers.

bloodyminded · June 2, 2011

Excellent! Someone who actually provides some data. Let's take a look:

So the low end "gap" is about $86.00 per week salary difference and the higher end works out to be about $150.00 per week difference. Before taxes of course. Seems pretty comparable to me all within a reasonable range. In other words, no real big differences here. I am sure there are some companies that pay more for their workers than are being paid in the government. Software application developers for example. I wonder what the disparity is there?

And I wonder Guyser, from your detailed reading of the report, does it mention that since public sector employees might tend to stay in their jobs longer, that this might have an influence on the reported pay? Probably not I bet, because that might skew the numbers a bit. Just like this does:

Of course you simply can't make a comparison between a "director general" or any other government executive class employee now could you? Because if they did, then the "average" would be way off the scale wouldn't it? Don't dare compare the pay scale of a national or multinational CEO or CFO with "similar" "skill sets" of Deputy Ministers or departmental CFO's because then the difference would be in the range of a piddly few grand a year, it would be in the order of hundreds of grand per year and, in some cases, over a million.

Why on earth wouldn't the 'Canadian Federation of Independent Business' make the same comparisons of private executives with public sector executives. Can you rationalize this obvious ommission from their data? CFIB don't lobby do they?

Really? They are "living large" on $86.00 to $150.00 extra per week before taxes? Are they buying Porches and mansions and eating caviar every week?

No, it seems if anyone is living large it is the executive class of private industry where the wage gap between the top earners and the low level workers fuels "reports" from "idependent businessmen" that say it all isn't fair because the low level public sectors employees make slightly more than their own workers. The absence of this data is very telling.

So, since there is no real difference in wages, then the problem really must be all those benefits - you know - those extras - that were negotiated in good faith by unions and government management (i.e. director generals and above) through a perfectly legal process called 'collective bargaining.' What does the CFIB report have to say about this?

OMG! 2%-13% difference! Fire them all! They get an extra couple of days leave! Nevermind that services to Canadians are legislated by law, that greedy clerk in Revenue Canada handling tax payments to Canadians likely makes $86.00 more per week and has a couple more days off than the clerk at Mutual Insurance who is trying to find a way to avoid paying their client an insurance payout.

And let's not forget, we simply cannot compare the wages and benefits of that CEO of Mutual Insurance with the Deputy Minister of Revenue Canada because it would be totally unfair for all those Mutual Insurance workers slaving away at their petty occupations wishing they were in their dream job at Revenue Canada.

I tip my hat. Conventional pieties proposed, and now demolished.

Edited June 2, 2011 by bloodyminded

Scotty · June 2, 2011

Why should government pay more than a mom and pop operation?

Large organizations generally require more out of people in the way of credentials, education and in the complexity of work.

Could be but we need to agree that the industry average is the appropriate reference point.

Government IS an industry, in fact, if you want to put it that way. Why should it pay the same as the retail industry when the jobs aren't necessarily comparable?

Scotty · June 2, 2011

Well, it depends what job the person is doing. Many government employees probably are overpaid, and their retirement compensation is definitely out of line.

I'm willing to bet almost none of you know what government retirement benefits are, or what benefits are for non-government unionized employees either. How many people were aware, for example, that the autoworkers contributed essentially nothing to their pension plans? Government workers at least have always had a substantial sum deducted from their cheques every two weeks going into their retirements.

Scotty · June 2, 2011

They cried quietly, Markel gave out in excess of 70 Billion Euros in 08-09 in stimulus spending to protect many sectors.

Not to mention Germany stagnated in 2001 to 2005.Unemployment was very high then too.

Germany has had ongoing economic issues since its absorption of east Germany following the collapse of Communism. And despite pouring billions into helping sustain less economical EEC partners, their unemployment rate is currently on a 19 year low.

Smallc · June 2, 2011

How many people were aware, for example, that the autoworkers contributed essentially nothing to their pension plans?

Do you think I'm going to defence that? The fact remains that the retirement benefits (much of it, defined benefit), vacation, and benefit packages (many of which continue into retirement at subsidized rate) are out of line with much of the private sector. Of course, people like my grandmother, who worked less than 3/4 time because of the position that she had, gets none of that, but most people do.

Scotty · June 2, 2011

You know, not all of us who are managers in the private sector are rich assholes stinking it to the little guy. The fact that someone at the bottom of Canada post will, in most years, make more than me, is outrageous. It isn't so bad in the case of Canada post, since they are mostly self sufficient, but it is a problem that permeates government. People are paid well in their work lives, and that isn't so bad. The real problem comes in retirement. They can spend all of their working money (unlike me) and not save anything, because they have a generous guaranteed pension. They also, often, get to continue benefits in retirement that many in the private sector (businesses small or large) can't even access in their working lives.

No, you just don't know what you're talking about.

I think it's probably you who doesn't know what you're talking about. I will agree that compensation is sometimes too generous for government employees. Why do bus drivers, for example, make more than managers in the public service? In fact, at the municipal level, virtually all jobs seem overpaid. It's not as bad at the provincial level, nor at the federal level. For federal public servants, lower level employees probably get somewhat better pay than counterparts in the private sector. However, medium high to higher level public servants earn considerably less than their private sector counterparts. They accept this in no small part because of the added security and benefits. As far as I'm aware, a public servant, after 25 years of work is entitled to a 50% pension. Their pension tops out at 70% for 35 years of work, which can be pretty decent, if you can get that many years in. Federal public servants don't get the Canada Pension Plan, or rather, the entirety of what they are entitled to (they make payments into CPP their entire careers in addition to their own pension plans) is deducted from their own pension cheques. That strikes me as quite the deduction, and lowers their actual government pension amount considerably. For example, if you paid into CPP all your life, at the maximum rate, you are entitled to $960 a month CPP. That ENTIRE amount will be deducted from whatever your government pension cheque amount is supposed to be.

Scotty · June 2, 2011

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2008/05/01/f-cp-census-income.html

"B..B..But Teh Communist Broadcasting Corporation...'

No wonder Conservatives scum like yourself want the census gone.

"between 1980 and 2005". How is the Conservative government responsible for that?

bloodyminded · June 2, 2011

I don't think we've quite concluded exactly why private sector pay is the benchmark by which all remuneration is to be measured, anyway. Sounds pretty close to a religious belief (and so, suitably, requires no consideration, aside from hokum about "free markets" tied to "Natural Law"...think about that for a second, because it's at the core of the argument.)

At any rate, even if we accept the parameters as laid out here (parameters to be determined by adherents of "private sector pay is fair" hypotheses, for...some reason, unstated), it seems to me that Shwa's excellent post has laid waste at least to the more hyperbolic assertions.

Edited June 2, 2011 by bloodyminded

Scotty · June 2, 2011

From the Fed of Independant Business? Sure I can !

Given the nature of the statements made by Catherine Swift over the last year or so I'm in no doubt that if she had her way all public service unions would be banned, and all public servants would be working for minimum wages with no benefits. She's openly anti-union, public or private, and can best be described as an American style Republican wannabee, one of those bozos who wants to ban unions and any worker rights for the good of 'business'. I trust nothing she says and nothing that comes out of her organization.

Because an accoutant is an accountant.

That's bloody nonsense. I suppose you think the guys who play single A ball are of the same caliber as those playing in the major leagues, too, and ought to earn the same salaries.

A purchasing clerk is a purchasing clerk. Some private sector ones handle millions, some govt ones handle millions.

Yes, but the way anti-union organizations like the CFIB make comparisons, they don't compare the big government clerk to the big private sector organization clerk. They compare the big government clerk to a whole host of private sector clerks, many of whom have minimal responsibilities, experience and skills. This gives them the figures they want to wave around.

So what? Same job .Same hardware , same policies

Then it's a wonder the private sector manages to hire any workers, given they could all easily get into the public service and do the exact same job with the same skill and education but for vastly greater remuneration, eh? :rolleyes:

CPCFTW · June 2, 2011

OMG! 2%-13% difference! Fire them all! They get an extra couple of days leave! Nevermind that services to Canadians are legislated by law, that greedy clerk in Revenue Canada handling tax payments to Canadians likely makes $86.00 more per week and has a couple more days off than the clerk at Mutual Insurance who is trying to find a way to avoid paying their client an insurance payout.

And let's not forget, we simply cannot compare the wages and benefits of that CEO of Mutual Insurance with the Deputy Minister of Revenue Canada because it would be totally unfair for all those Mutual Insurance workers slaving away at their petty occupations wishing they were in their dream job at Revenue Canada.

Lol.. Only in Canada is the tax collection authority labelled the good guy. :lol:

"Mutual Insurance"... You sure sound like you know what your talking about. There's just so many mutual insurance companies in Canada! :lol:

bush_cheney2004 · June 2, 2011

...She's openly anti-union, public or private, and can best be described as an American style Republican wannabee, one of those bozos who wants to ban unions and any worker rights for the good of 'business'.

LOL! When all else fails, invoke the Republican (American) bogeyman.

Scotty · June 2, 2011

Do you think I'm going to defence that? The fact remains that the retirement benefits (much of it, defined benefit), vacation, and benefit packages (many of which continue into retirement at subsidized rate) are out of line with much of the private sector. Of course, people like my grandmother, who worked less than 3/4 time because of the position that she had, gets none of that, but most people do.

Then the thing to do is to bring the private sector up, not the public sector down. Private sector employees in most European countries are entitled to far better benefits, vacations, pensions, etc, than in the Canadian public service. Maybe the answer is to expand unions into more areas of the private sector.

CPCFTW · June 2, 2011

That's bloody nonsense. I suppose you think the guys who play single A ball are of the same caliber as those playing in the major leagues, too, and ought to earn the same salaries.

The public sector is the big leagues now? When do I get my call-up? :lol:

Yes, but the way anti-union organizations like the CFIB make comparisons, they don't compare the big government clerk to the big private sector organization clerk. They compare the big government clerk to a whole host of private sector clerks, many of whom have minimal responsibilities, experience and skills. This gives them the figures they want to wave around.

Hate to break it to you, but clerks don't make a hell of a lot in any private organization. The "big private sector organization clerk" isn't driving around in a Ferrari spitting on you. :lol:

Then it's a wonder the private sector manages to hire any workers, given they could all easily get into the public service and do the exact same job with the same skill and education but for vastly greater remuneration, eh?

Some people don't want to work 2 hours a day and surf the internet / talk about their kids / take extended breaks / go to the gym for six hours a day for 35 years. And they don't want other people to get paid from their tax dollars for doing so either. :lol:

Do you really think you possess such a unique skillset that people in the private sector couldn't fill it? I'd love to hear it. :lol:

CPCFTW · June 2, 2011

Then the thing to do is to bring the private sector up, not the public sector down. Private sector employees in most European countries are entitled to far better benefits, vacations, pensions, etc, than in the Canadian public service. Maybe the answer is to expand unions into more areas of the private sector.

Anything to keep that gravy train flowing! Maybe the answer is to give everyone in the public and private sector 50 sick days a year, 5 months vacation, and 150% of their salaries as pension!! :lol:

Scotty · June 2, 2011

Some people don't want to work 2 hours a day and surf the internet / talk about their kids / take extended breaks / go to the gym for six hours a day for 35 years. And they don't want other people to get paid from their tax dollars for doing so either.

I'd really like you to shadow a friend or two of mine who works for the government, but I think you'd be exhausted just from watching, and certainly couldn't handle the long hours and stress. Government managers, for example, who don't get overtime, often put in 60-70hrs a week. One I know hasn't managed to get in under 50 hours in over a year, and that's while working through lunches and breaks.

Scotty · June 2, 2011

Anything to keep that gravy train flowing! Maybe the answer is to give everyone in the public and private sector 50 sick days a year, 5 months vacation, and 150% of their salaries as pension!!

Why do you think it's better to live in a country where most workers get almost no vacations, no sick leave, and no pensions, as well as poor pay, instead of living in a country where most workers get good vacations, good sick leave coverage, good pensions, and healthy salaries?

bush_cheney2004 · June 2, 2011

Why do you think it's better to live in a country where most workers get almost no vacations, no sick leave, and no pensions, as well as poor pay, instead of living in a country where most workers get good vacations, good sick leave coverage, good pensions, and healthy salaries?

Krikey....no wonder Canadian worker productivity is so low!

CPCFTW · June 2, 2011

I'd really like you to shadow a friend or two of mine who works for the government, but I think you'd be exhausted just from watching, and certainly couldn't handle the long hours and stress. Government managers, for example, who don't get overtime, often put in 60-70hrs a week. One I know hasn't managed to get in under 50 hours in over a year, and that's while working through lunches and breaks.

Managers don't get overtime pay in either sector. :lol:

The problem has never been the managers. The problem is that the managers themselves can do most of the job, but they hire 20 people to sit around and play office for 50k/yr so that they can meet their budget allocation and not face any cutbacks. :lol:

CPCFTW · June 2, 2011

Why do you think it's better to live in a country where most workers get almost no vacations, no sick leave, and no pensions, as well as poor pay, instead of living in a country where most workers get good vacations, good sick leave coverage, good pensions, and healthy salaries?

Why do you think it's better to live in a country where the government doesn't just print us all a million billion dollars? :lol:

Edited June 2, 2011 by CPCFTW

Smallc · June 2, 2011

I don't think we've quite concluded exactly why private sector pay is the benchmark by which all remuneration is to be measured, anyway.

It's quite simple. People in the private sector are paying the salaries of those in the public sector. We need to be able to support our government.

Smallc · June 2, 2011

Then the thing to do is to bring the private sector up, not the public sector down.

There is only so much money in an economy to be had, you know.

Smallc · June 2, 2011

I'd really like you to shadow a friend or two of mine who works for the government, but I think you'd be exhausted just from watching, and certainly couldn't handle the long hours and stress.

I worked in quasi the public sector for a short time (at the management level), and I can tell you, that it was much less demanding than what I do now.

bloodyminded · June 2, 2011

Then it's a wonder the private sector manages to hire any workers, given they could all easily get into the public service and do the exact same job with the same skill and education but for vastly greater remuneration, eh?

Must be altruism, and a determination not to be part of tax-funded employment.

Edit: I just read a post which literally makes this claim! Too good.

Edited June 2, 2011 by bloodyminded