One Last Kick at the Liberals

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Wouldn't you think it's time you got over all of that? We have a similar chapter now - the Liberals are in their death throes and the party has fallen into the hands of Bob Rae. Who knows what will come out the other side - but it will not look the same as the "old" Liberal Party. Times change - people move on - the world changes - and Parties have to change with them. The Liberals never did and look what happened to them. Let it go Molly....if you're an old PC advocate, you should be starting to be pleased with Harper's slow and steady, incrementalist approach to bringing the Party back to the Center.

The PC's were never about the centre and neither is the CPC. By design there gravitate toward the right. That is like saying the NDP is inching toward the centre, but in reality they just hang out on the left side of the equation. The Liberals were designed in the centre of our political spectrum, and there they remain. The last election and the three or four before it were about leadership and vision, not partisan policy. The majority of citizens don't give a damn about the political parties. Most of them simply don't vote at all. Canada has for the most part had governments with far less than a majority of popular support. Our politics have always been fractured by public opinion, and likely always will.

I will suggest that a unite the "left" front will be formed over the next few years. Just prior to the next election the NDP and the Liberals will form a united front to unseat the government of the day. A coalition WILL form because the time is right, and the Conservatives cannot gainsay the effort having done the same thing themselves. Things are going to get interesting.

[Molly]

Let it go Molly....if you're an old PC advocate, you should be starting to be pleased with Harper's slow and steady, incrementalist approach to bringing the Party back to the Center.

That's pretty funny.

Anti-women; anti-science; anti-parliamentary; anti-peace; anti-accountability; anti-democratic; (anti-truthtelling); anti-informed-decision-making..... That's not 'bringing the Party (back to) the Centre' so far as I can see.

(And what Freudian quirk is betrayed by your capitalization of 'Party' and (U.S.A. spelling)'Center'?)

[Saipan]

Anti-women; anti-science; anti-parliamentary; anti-peace; anti-accountability; anti-democratic; (anti-truthtelling); anti-informed-decision-making..... That's not 'bringing the Party (back to) the Centre' so far as I can see.

Hard to see anything inside that old socialist cardboard box.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Saipan

[Evening Star]

Molly: Tbh a lot of those things are probably pretty close to the political centre, at least by now.

Are you looking for a Red Tory-style party concerned with social justice and collective institutions? The NDP is probably as close to that as any party now, although I would maintain reservations about their attitude towards Quebec nationalism and parliamentary institutions. (But is the former that different from Clark's 'community of communities'?)

It makes me hate myself a little, but increasingly, when I catch Power and Politics, I find myself agreeing with Liberals more than anyone else. When it comes to the Senate, for example, Martha Hall Findlay's suggestion of a more rigourous nomination process seems so much more sensible than either abolition or some sort of US-style elected Senate.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Evening Star

[Wild Bill]

That's pretty funny.

Anti-women; anti-science; anti-parliamentary; anti-peace; anti-accountability; anti-democratic; (anti-truthtelling); anti-informed-decision-making..... That's not 'bringing the Party (back to) the Centre' so far as I can see.

(And what Freudian quirk is betrayed by your capitalization of 'Party' and (U.S.A. spelling)'Center'?)

As opposed to the ideal of truth and transparency - Brian Mulroney?

I think the real reason you're so disappointed with Harper is that he's not a Liberal! I don't happen to like him myself and we share some reasons why. Still, I never understood how anyone could consider the old PC party to be conservative!

What did you lose when the PCs ended, Molly? You could still vote Liberal and it would have been very nearly the same.

[Evening Star]

Yeah, I think Mulroney himself actually said something to the effect that the Chretien-era Liberals threw out all their old principles and completed his agenda istead.

[Keepitsimple]

The Liberals were designed in the centre of our political spectrum, and there they remain.

There's the achilles heel of Liberal partisans. They measure the center through their own political lens - not understanding - or accepting - that more and more Canadians are simply passing them by - waving to them as they stand stupified, wondering what the heck has happened.....which reminds me of the old Phyllis Diller joke - she looks in the mirror and says "What the hell happened"....and while I'm on a bit of a Phyllis Diller roll, she also said "My cooking was so bad even the flies chipped in to buy a screen".

Edited June 4, 2011 by Keepitsimple

[Tilter]

One Last Kick at the Liberals

damn--- you think it's our last chance to do that?

Just think how bad the drubbing would have been if that pillar of honesty and truth Mr Kreetin hadn't came forth to shore up the defenses of his pal Iggy altho it would seem that Iggy didn't do too well being tarred with the same brush as Kreetin has been from time to time since golf Courses were sold on the Paper match container

[Molly]

As opposed to the ideal of truth and transparency - Brian Mulroney?

I think the real reason you're so disappointed with Harper is that he's not a Liberal! I don't happen to like him myself and we share some reasons why. Still, I never understood how anyone could consider the old PC party to be conservative!

What did you lose when the PCs ended, Molly? You could still vote Liberal and it would have been very nearly the same.

Now, Mulroney deeply underwhelmed me on his first kick at the leadership. My assessment of his character and worldview has subsequently been proved very precisely accurate.

The old PC party had 'Progressive' tied to the name for solid reasons. They did indeed have a social concience, along with a little lot of respect for taxpayers pockets and taxpayers privacy (and taxpayers analytical capacity too, though that was proved to be trust misplaced). One of the really great things they had going for them was a reluctance to place all (ever-increasing) authourity in the PMO. (While I like a fairly strong central government, that tendency to crown an individual despot was one big thing I held against Trudeau.) Another was a willingness to tell the truth even when the truth was unpleasant. (Jack Horner was great. He could be counted on to tolerate fools badly, blow a fuse and spell out the way the real world worked.)

As you say, Bill, I could vote for the Liberals (of the last decade) and have the thing most similar to the pre-Mulroney Red Tories, but I do like 'em a little bluer than that,and never was fond of the Liberal failure to commit to an idea. Depending on the leader, they fluttered in the wind forever pandering for a vote, not making a decision. The CPC would have had my vote the first time but for offering me a completely unacceptable candidate. They have subsequently proved to be a social experiment gone horribly wrong... I'm hard-pressed to think of much that I hold any general agreement with them about... just arctic sovereignty and the long gun registry, both of which they seem eager to brag about, but unwilling to spend any political capital to accomplish.

Evening Star... ... when you put it that way....

The NDP is a hard sell. That fundamental disrespect for parliamentary institutions doesn't fly well with me, and neither does their doubtable attitude to money, and to collectivism. I would call myself and much of my lifes work a victim of Roy Romanow, so federal NDP has a lot of proving up to do.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Molly

[Tilter]

I see you couldn't comprehend the simple concept. I'll try one more time.

Hypothetical:

Next election Quebec votes 100% NDP, they pick up 2.1m votes, or +14.5% of the vote. The rest of the country votes the same way.

End result:

NDP 6.6m votes, 45% of the vote, 119 seats

Cons 5.2m votes, 35.6% of the vote, 161 seats

Conservative Majority.

Come on, you're a big boy, surely you can figure this one out now.

The NDP needs to gain popularity OUTSIDE of Quebec. With around 50% of voters choosing CPC, they are unlikely to swing to the NDP. That was my point.

Can you keep up yet?

All they have to do is take Alberta HA HA HA HA HA HA. Sask has been NDP--- don't want them federally. Manitoba Ditto, Ontario-- Been there done that------ BC--- vacillates between all 3 parties with the odd weird party thrown in every now & again Crazy enuf to do anything. Quebec will go back to it's French roots & dump the NDP--The far east seems to wobble between Tory & Grit -- who knows No one wants to see the Libs anywhere but the toilet-- Big Tory majority in 2015

Edited June 5, 2011 by Tilter

[punked]

All they have to do is take Alberta HA HA HA HA HA HA. Sask has been NDP--- don't want them federally. Manitoba Ditto, Ontario-- Been there done that------ BC--- vacillates between all 3 parties with the odd weird party thrown in every now & again Crazy enuf to do anything. Quebec will go back to it's French roots & dump the NDP--The far east seems to wobble between Tory & Grit -- who knows No one wants to see the Libs anywhere but the toilet-- Big Tory majority in 2015

I think this election proved anyone who predicts the electoral future by looking at the past is bound to look like an idiot. Keep it up though I am sure you can't look any worse.

[Evening Star]

His analysis didn't even make sense to me on its own terms. Provincial NDP governments have been very successful in SK and MB. If they're fading a bit now (after years of government), that doesn't make them comparable to the situation in ON. NS and NL both sent NDP members to Parliament.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Evening Star

[kitt]

Before the last kick can land on the Liberals, one will have to observe their actions and the results the next 12-18 months. If the old guard is swept out, the party will revert back to its roots. Not a good thing for NDP or CPC. Good for Canada though.

[Saipan]

Before the last kick can land on the Liberals, one will have to observe their actions and the results the next 12-18 months. If the old guard is swept out, the party will revert back to its roots.

They can't go back. Mao and Castro are dead.

OK the last one still moves, but I don't see any Liberal leader coming to him for advise again.

[kitt]

They can't go back. Mao and Castro are dead.

OK the last one still moves, but I don't see any Liberal leader coming to him for advise again.

Funny. I remember Harper attacking that Liberal leader unmercifully because he refused to deregulate the banks - which is what really saved Canada these past years.

[Saipan]

Funny. I remember Harper attacking that Liberal leader unmercifully because he refused to deregulate the banks - which is what really saved Canada these past years.

What saved Canada was actually the GST and NAFTA both of which Chretien promised to kill. But kept longer than anyone.

[kitt]

What saved Canada was actually the GST and NAFTA both of which Chretien promised to kill. But kept longer than anyone.

The GST was lowered and became a useless source of revenue since purchases were way down and the USA was not buying our products so NAFTA was of no use either. Plus with the dollar at a record high, our goods became too expensive for the US and manufacturing tanked. The banks remained healthy and were able to keep the interest rates low so people could survive. IF the banks had been deregulated like Harper wanted, Canada would have been in a mess. Mortgages, real estate, car loans, business loans were able to continue as the banks kept and followed regulations left in place by Liberal governments, although at a more moderate pace.

The gst was not such a saviour as it mostly replaced the hidden 13% excise tax, plus Mulroney and Harper added the gst to more goods and services even while Harper lowered it. Chretien couldn't get rid of the gst without putting the hidden excise tax onto goods and services. He made a mistake and was smart enough not to make another one and get rid of the gst.