what the hell is wrong with the israeli government?

[bud]

why can't they do the right thing and recognize and support a palestinian state?

[scouterjim]

why can't they do the right thing and recognize and support a palestinian state?

Does the school bully recognize the rights of the little kid?

[dre]

why can't they do the right thing and recognize and support a palestinian state?

Probably roughly the same reason why European settlers didnt recognize North America as a "first nations" state. We needed/wanted some of that land and the resources on it.

Israel gets roughly 2/3's of its fresh water from the occupied territories. This is a vital resource in an area where water is scarce (and getting scarcer) and they could not provide food for their populous without it. If Israel was to give up the Golan Heights, and the West Bank and completely retreat from these areas they would almost immediately face a major crisis. These arent guesses, these are facts. NO other nation in Israels position would act much differently. Not Canada, not the US, not France. Doesnt mean they are "right"... without a doubt much of what they do is wrong and unjust... but if youre the Israeli government charged with representing the interests of Israeli citizens then their course of actions makes pretty good sense. The Status Quo is actually pretty good for Israel. They can plunder the occupied territories for vital resources while facing very little in terms of resistance from eithe r the occupied populations or the international community.

Nation States dont make moral judgements they make VALUE judgements and Israels actions make sense in this context. Isreal has built crucial national infrastructure in the west bank, and in the Golan Heights... a vast network of piplines, wells, pumping stations, and settlements. It makes no sense for them to surrender all that stuff when they can keep it without any real consequences.

Edited May 4, 2011 by dre

[Shwa]

Probably roughly the same reason why European settlers didnt recognize North America as a "first nations" state. We needed/wanted some of that land and the resources on it.

Israel gets roughly 2/3's of its fresh water from the occupied territories. This is a vital resource in an area where water is scarce (and getting scarcer) and they could not provide food for their populous without it. If Israel was to give up the Golan Heights, and the West Bank and completely retreat from these areas they would almost immediately face a major crisis. These arent guesses, these are facts. NO other nation in Israels position would act much differently. Not Canada, not the US, not France. Doesnt mean they are "right"... without a doubt much of what they do is wrong and unjust... but if youre the Israeli government charged with representing the interests of Israeli citizens then their course of actions makes pretty good sense. The Status Quo is actually pretty good for Israel. They can plunder the occupied territories for vital resources while facing very little in terms of resistance from eithe r the occupied populations or the international community.

Nation States dont make moral judgements they make VALUE judgements and Israels actions make sense in this context. Isreal has built crucial national infrastructure in the west bank, and in the Golan Heights... a vast network of piplines, wells, pumping stations, and settlements. It makes no sense for them to surrender all that stuff when they can keep it without any real consequences.

Excellent post!

But it begs the question, why aren't the enemies of Israel targetting the "...vast network of piplines, wells, pumping stations..." and leaving the people out of it?

[Retired Taxe Payer]

Probably roughly the same reason why European settlers didnt recognize North America as a "first nations" state. We needed/wanted some of that land and the resources on it.

Israel gets roughly 2/3's of its fresh water from the occupied territories. This is a vital resource in an area where water is scarce (and getting scarcer) and they could not provide food for their populous without it. If Israel was to give up the Golan Heights, and the West Bank and completely retreat from these areas they would almost immediately face a major crisis. These arent guesses, these are facts. NO other nation in Israels position would act much differently. Not Canada, not the US, not France. Doesnt mean they are "right"... without a doubt much of what they do is wrong and unjust... but if youre the Israeli government charged with representing the interests of Israeli citizens then their course of actions makes pretty good sense. The Status Quo is actually pretty good for Israel. They can plunder the occupied territories for vital resources while facing very little in terms of resistance from eithe r the occupied populations or the international community.

Nation States dont make moral judgements they make VALUE judgements and Israels actions make sense in this context. Isreal has built crucial national infrastructure in the west bank, and in the Golan Heights... a vast network of piplines, wells, pumping stations, and settlements. It makes no sense for them to surrender all that stuff when they can keep it without any real consequences.

Well your explanation makes a lots of sense and I would like it if someone could provide us with factual data references.

I guess that has to do when commercial and industrial development is left unchecked and with a short term view. Imagine the day the US needs most of the fresh water in the great lakes! There are no trade agreeements nor reasonning that would stop them from taking it. Even if it was to be devastating to the Canadian St Lawrence Seaway.

Andre

[bush_cheney2004]

....There are no trade agreeements nor reasonning that would stop them from taking it. Even if it was to be devastating to the Canadian St Lawrence Seaway.

Agreed, not even when such agreements are in place, the same way that Canada mismanaged Atlantic and Pacific fisheries.

[Shwa]

Well your explanation makes a lots of sense and I would like it if someone could provide us with factual data references.

I guess that has to do when commercial and industrial development is left unchecked and with a short term view. Imagine the day the US needs most of the fresh water in the great lakes! There are no trade agreeements nor reasonning that would stop them from taking it. Even if it was to be devastating to the Canadian St Lawrence Seaway.

Andre

It would be devastating to the American St Lawrence Seaway too. So... why would they do that?

[dre]

Excellent post!

But it begs the question, why aren't the enemies of Israel targetting the "...vast network of piplines, wells, pumping stations..." and leaving the people out of it?

Neither side is "leaving the people out of it". Israel has militarized water resources in the west bank and they enforce strict quotas on Palestinians use of their own water that make it almost impossible for them to build an agrarian economy. Israeli's use 5 times as much water per person as they allow palestinians to use. This kind of situation makes violence between the two sides a forgone conclusion.

[dre]

Well your explanation makes a lots of sense and I would like it if someone could provide us with factual data references.

I guess that has to do when commercial and industrial development is left unchecked and with a short term view. Imagine the day the US needs most of the fresh water in the great lakes! There are no trade agreeements nor reasonning that would stop them from taking it. Even if it was to be devastating to the Canadian St Lawrence Seaway.

Andre

Im not sure what references you want to see.

Heres a map that shows all that water infrastructure in the occupied territories.

http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/mideast/info/maps/israel-water-systems-map.html

Imagine the day the US needs most of the fresh water in the great lakes! There are no trade agreeements nor reasonning that would stop them from taking it. Even if it was to be devastating to the Canadian St Lawrence Seaway.

I dont know if the St Lawrence will ever become a flash point or not, but those kind of resource access issues have caused conflicts all throughout history, and especially in the Is/Pal conflict.

[bud]

Probably roughly the same reason why European settlers didnt recognize North America as a "first nations" state. We needed/wanted some of that land and the resources on it.

Israel gets roughly 2/3's of its fresh water from the occupied territories. This is a vital resource in an area where water is scarce (and getting scarcer) and they could not provide food for their populous without it. If Israel was to give up the Golan Heights, and the West Bank and completely retreat from these areas they would almost immediately face a major crisis. These arent guesses, these are facts. NO other nation in Israels position would act much differently. Not Canada, not the US, not France. Doesnt mean they are "right"... without a doubt much of what they do is wrong and unjust... but if youre the Israeli government charged with representing the interests of Israeli citizens then their course of actions makes pretty good sense. The Status Quo is actually pretty good for Israel. They can plunder the occupied territories for vital resources while facing very little in terms of resistance from eithe r the occupied populations or the international community.

Nation States dont make moral judgements they make VALUE judgements and Israels actions make sense in this context. Isreal has built crucial national infrastructure in the west bank, and in the Golan Heights... a vast network of piplines, wells, pumping stations, and settlements. It makes no sense for them to surrender all that stuff when they can keep it without any real consequences.

some very good points in your post. i'd have to disagree in regards to pressure from the international community. a momentum has been building in favour of a palestinian state by both the international community and those living inside israel. jews who live abroad and support israel have become vocal in regards to their support for a palestinian state. something will need to give. perhaps israel will have to end up paying for the resources they're taking from palestinian land.

[Bob]

Neither side is "leaving the people out of it". Israel has militarized water resources in the west bank and they enforce strict quotas on Palestinians use of their own water that make it almost impossible for them to build an agrarian economy. Israeli's use 5 times as much water per person as they allow palestinians to use. This kind of situation makes violence between the two sides a forgone conclusion.

There are a lot of things you're overlooking. First of all, Israeli needs for water are much higher given our industry, that's why you're seeing the proportional disparity (although I don't know if it's fivefold). Second, why should be put at risk our water security by giving the Arabs more access? This is a zero-sum game. There's a fixed amount of fresh water available in the underground aquifers. Also, who do you think built the water carriers and the infrastructure? It sure wasn't the Arabs. They also steal water by connecting to underground pipes and not paying for their consumption. There is no way Israel will compromise its water security in order to appease the enemy.

It's just another reason by the prospects for a Palestinian state are dim.

[Bonam]

There are a lot of things you're overlooking. First of all, Israeli needs for water are much higher given our industry, that's why you're seeing the proportional disparity (although I don't know if it's fivefold). Second, why should be put at risk our water security by giving the Arabs more access? This is a zero-sum game. There's a fixed amount of fresh water available in the underground aquifers.

It's true that there's a fixed amount of fresh water available in the underground aquifers, or in the lakes and rivers. But those are not the only sources of water. Water can be obtained using desalination plants, condensers, and as a product (along with CO2) from the combustion of hydrocarbons. Since they first began settling in Israel, Jews have excelled at using innovative technology to overcome the relative inhospitability of the harsh middle eastern landscape. Israel is already a world leader in desalination technology and continues to rapidly build more of these plants.

Even if the Palestinians did not exist and Israel had sole and unchallenged control of all the occupied territories in perpetuity, natural fresh water resources would run short in the not too distant future, as Israel's growing economy and population continued to use more water. The future of Israel's water security is the Mediterranean Sea, not the West Bank.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Bonam

[Bob]

It's true that there's a fixed amount of fresh water available in the underground aquifers, or in the lakes and rivers. But those are not the only sources of water. Water can be obtained using desalination plants, condensers, and as a product (along with CO2) from the combustion of hydrocarbons. Since they first began settling in Israel, Jews have excelled at using innovative technology to overcome the relative inhospitability of the harsh middle eastern landscape. Israel is already a world leader in desalination technology and continues to rapidly build more of these plants.

Even if the Palestinians did not exist and Israel had sole and unchallenged control of all the occupied territories in perpetuity, natural fresh water resources would run short in the not too distant future, as Israel's growing economy and population continued to use more water. The future of Israel's water security is the Mediterranean Sea, not the West Bank.

You're right, but I don't know what proportion of Israel and Palestinian water comes from desalination technology. It's also expensive, partly in terms of up-front costs (from what I've read), but primarily in terms of ongoing energy/maintenance demands. It's certainly the future, but as things stand now the majority of our water is coming from the limited freshwater sources in the area.

[Saipan]

why can't they do the right thing and recognize and support a palestinian state?

Why can't the UN recognize and support real country, Tibet?