Good Faith

[Pliny]

There is more to it than simple enjoyment...what you are witnessing is the beginning of the Obama/Biden campaign for 2012. He has taken a perceived political liability and turned it upside down for advantage. Most Americans can relate to a birth certificate and/or certificate of live birth at a personal level, so it works quite well. All that was missing were his little infant footprints in black ink! Contrast this with forged military service documents that Dan Rather and his CBS producer (Mary Mapes) paraded against President Bush, who could not redirect with such comical aplomb.

A bit different as the MSM made up the facts. President Bush could have joked about it with just as much comical aplomb. The MSM wanted it buried.

Several states have pending legislation to prove natural born citizenship for presidential candidates, and frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't been required before, along with the minimum 35 year age requirement.

I am surprised as well. I thought it would be part of the vetting porcess. I note that the Governemor of Arizona skipped the legislation in her State. More important issues it seems and more of a federal than State oversight.

[Pliny]

Agreed. They saw this would remain an issue in the 2012 campaign, so they nipped it in the bud. Issue over, except for the obsessed conspiracy types.

It aint' over two hard lefties brought it up in the Bin Laden thread already. I'm certain the MSM will mention it a few times over the course of th ecampaign with appropriate comment from the White House. I hope I'm wrong though.

[BubberMiley]

I hope I'm wrong though.

Because you're really, really embarrassed by how stupid "the right" looks right now?

[bloodyminded]

I wasn't talking about you in particular. Your proclivity is to exclude or include yourself in the left claiming neutrality and the centrist position at your convenience. You are obviously on the left side of this issue. Of course, you never claimed to be and I am just putting words in your mouth.

I am only responding to your own words:

Or one of your favoirite media types - Michael Moore.

That's not about me in particular?

You made an erroneous assumption. I corrected it.

Your next sentence is the usual boilerplate about what "the left" does or doesn't do, so perhaps you could make the "you" as general signifier argument. But it doesn't wash. Rhetorically, it's clearly directed, or else you would have used "their" to avoid the obvious confusion of "your."

"Your" only works as a general signifier when the speaker himself could conceivably be included.

It's the difference between my saying, "Your favourite commentator is Mark Steyn" (in which you'd legtimately know I was directing it to you, at the exclusion of myself), and "your income is taxed by the government," which is undirected.

Edited May 2, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Pliny]

Because you're really, really embarrassed by how stupid "the right" looks right now?

That's the illusion the MSM has tried to paint, the right are loons. Birthers are loons. Some prominent ones are Democrats or have fromerly been democrats, such as Donald Trump, Lou Dobbs, Chris Mathews, etc. They all wanted to see his Birth Certificate.

Why would I feel embarrassed? I would be happy if it were over but I think you will, as you are showing now, still going to want to have fun with it trying to make the label stick to include all the "right".

[Oleg Bach]

Hat tip to Donald Trump for forcing him to finally release it.

Trump the dump. This bankruptcy artist is no hero. He does not pay his debts. How can you respect a guy that is incapable of getting a good hair cut. The good faith shown by Obama is minimal. The idea that this white guy from Chicago pretended to be black in order to get elected is still unsavory in my mind. Biden understood that America was NOT going to elect another rich overly privledged white guy...so Biden and the boys in a clever attempt to keep power got themselves a surrogate...Obama. A man who cut a deal with the upper class and sold out America for a bit of glory and a ride in air force one. Obama is the greatest fraud perpetrated on the American public since the declaration of independence - from Britian which never really happened. The clever founding fathers kept up their British buisness connections and dupe the people - Just like today where the relationship with supposed enemies is strickly theatrical in nature - designed to appease and confuse the people - Obama is part of a long time practice of rule by deception.

[Pliny]

You made an erroneous assumption. I corrected it.

I think the assumption stands. You certainly aren't a centrist.

Your next sentence is the usual boilerplate about what "the left" does or doesn't do, so perhaps you could make the "you" as general signifier argument. But it doesn't wash. Rhetorically, it's clearly directed, or else you would have used "their" to avoid the obvious confusion of "your."

"Your" only works as a general signifier when the speaker himself could conceivably be included.

It's the difference between my saying, "Your favourite commentator is Mark Steyn" (in which you'd legtimately know I was directing it to you, at the exclusion of myself), and "your income is taxed by the government," which is undirected.

Firstly, "general signifier"? How about a plural and singular pronoun.

You have never said to me that Michael Moore is one of your favourite mouthpieces. So when I say, "One of your favourite mouthpieces - Michael Moore." I clearly mean the left in general and that would include you as you are a part of the left, who I know Michael Moore is a favourite mouthpiece for. I wouldn't use "their" because then you would be excluded. You, being a lefty - he is your mouthpiece - the mouthpiece of the left. How could I mean that he is "your"(singular)mouthpiece for you alone.

You will have to excuse me for forgetting you don't consider yourself a lefty. What you write always throws me off.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm a Democrat. I definitely lean left. Yet Michael Moore isn't my mouthpiece, and I would correct anyone who claimed that he was.

Your mistake is in thinking that everyone from the left shares the same thoughts, ideas, and views on every issue. We don't. It would, therefore, be best not to speak in general terms when responding to posters whose political standing tends to lean one way or the other. Why would you assume that someone like Michael Moore, because his ideas are left-wing, speaks for everyone from the left? Do fundamentalist Christians speak for everyone on the right? I would think not.

[bloodyminded]

I think the assumption stands. You certainly aren't a centrist.

Your assumption to which I objected wasn't about your perception of my political stance--although that remains simultaneously confused and irelevant--but about specific things which I believe or admire...and do not.

Firstly, "general signifier"? How about a plural and singular pronoun.

If that helps you.

You have never said to me that Michael Moore is one of your favourite mouthpieces. So when I say, "One of your favourite mouthpieces - Michael Moore." I clearly mean the left in general and that would include you as you are a part of the left, who I know Michael Moore is a favourite mouthpiece for.

This doesn't even make sense.

don't get me wrong--I understand you believe it does. But no.

I wouldn't use "their" because then you would be excluded.

No, it wouldn't necessitate any such thing.

At any rate, to claim that "Michael Moore is a mouthpiece for the Left" is wrongheaed even on its own merits, with myself subtracted from the discussion.

You, being a lefty - he is your mouthpiece - the mouthpiece of the left. How could I mean that he is "your"(singular)mouthpiece for you alone.

You will have to excuse me for forgetting you don't consider yourself a lefty. What you write always throws me off.

Perhaps you should read American Woman's reply on this.

[bloodyminded]

I think the assumption stands. You certainly aren't a centrist.

No, as the term is relatively useless, and most self-described "centrists" could as easily be deemed left or right of "centre." But that's not what we were discussing.

Honestly, I believe I'm closer to the wobbly, shifting "centre" than you are; that's not a criticism, but an observation.

Firstly, "general signifier"? How about a plural and singular pronoun.

If that helps you.

You have never said to me that Michael Moore is one of your favourite mouthpieces. So when I say, "One of your favourite mouthpieces - Michael Moore." I clearly mean the left in general and that would include you as you are a part of the left, who I know Michael Moore is a favourite mouthpiece for. I wouldn't use "their" because then you would be excluded. You, being a lefty - he is your mouthpiece - the mouthpiece of the left. How could I mean that he is "your"(singular)mouthpiece for you alone.

You will have to excuse me for forgetting you don't consider yourself a lefty. What you write always throws me off.

Perhaps you should read American Woman's reply on this. There simply is no singular entity called "the Left"; no square peg for you to pound into a round hole.