aww, the poor prisoners of Ontario

[bloodyminded]

So, a guy breaks into your home, rapes your wife and daughter, kills your son, and you would stand and say, "Well, I'm going to do nothing about it!"? Me? I'd hunt the SOB down, and do him in!

So you didn't read my post about the the bar for violence and the legitimacy of it in certain cases?

Why did you quote it if you didn't read it?

[guyser]

So, a guy breaks into your home, rapes your wife and daughter, kills your son, and you would stand and say, "Well, I'm going to do nothing about it!"? Me? I'd hunt the SOB down, and do him in!

Ahhh....the old emotional ploy. Bring in the rape and daughter angle when we are talking about an ATV , real people vs an object and some idiot trying to shoot a scumbag in the back.

Well done !

[guyser]

He was misguided; equally hostile to thought are his supporters, who appear to be under the delusion that he's committed an heroic act.

You know, I bet they are under no illusion but the support will help mitigate his sentence, or perhaps they think so anyway. Cant blame them, I might be there to if it was my buddy. Of course I would tell him he was stupid and will play....but if my appearance helps reduce the sentence, then I will go.

The resort to violence is sometimes justified, but the bar should rightfully be set very high, both for individuals and for groups. (Up to and including nations.) If there is a clear need for self-defense (and the defense of others)--or even if the perception of this need is reasonable--then violence can be justified.

Chasing someone who has stolen your property, and then shooting at him, is not reasonable. This is more criminal than the act which has generated the response.

Agreed

Edited April 15, 2011 by guyser

[Sir Bandelot]

Rehabilitation is far more important in the Canadian system than punishment. While incarceration is used it is often a last resort reserved for those who either can't or refuse to be rehabilitated. We don't want American style prisons in Canada primarily because they don't work, and they produce higher rates of recidivism.

I agree that prisoners should not automatically have access to such perks BUT if they work to earn them by demonstrating calm and reasonable behavior, then why not?

I agree with this philosophy and am greatly concerned that this government wants to move away from a policy of meaningful rehabilitation toward a system which is simply punitive in nature. From what I am hearing the CPC intends to remove useful rehab programs in prisons.

Prisoners should be allowed to work in some capacity while in prison, and earn credits if not actual money, allowing them to have certain benefits. This to me seems reasonable. It also gives some encouragement to become productive members of society again, by showing that there are rewards to be had for right action and right behaviour.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Sir Bandelot

[treehugger]

Rehabilitation is far more important in the Canadian system than punishment. While incarceration is used it is often a last resort reserved for those who either can't or refuse to be rehabilitated. We don't want American style prisons in Canada primarily because they don't work, and they produce higher rates of recidivism.

I agree that prisoners should not automatically have access to such perks BUT if they work to earn them by demonstrating calm and reasonable behavior, then why not?

How is premium television channels going to help people that have committed crimes?

[treehugger]

I agree with this philosophy and am greatly concerned that this government wants to move away from a policy of meaningful rehabilitation toward a system which is simply punitive in nature. From what I am hearing the CPC intends to remove useful rehab programs in prisons.

Prisoners should be allowed to work in some capacity while in prison, and earn credits if not actual money, allowing them to have certain benefits. This to me seems reasonable. It also gives some encouragement to become productive members of society again, by showing that there are rewards to be had for right action and right behaviour.

Rehabilitation does gon in some prisons as I have seen it on different shows. Does anyone on here know for sure that prisoners aren't be rehabilitated?

[treehugger]

I take it you two are experts in criminology.

I am not an expert in criminology, nor did I say I was. I just stated a true fact that happened. What's your problem

Is it hitting close to home for you or something?

[Handsome Rob]

How is premium television channels going to help people that have committed crimes?

Prisoner A agrees to work in the cafeteria for rewards such as resources to spend in the prison store, perks in the cell and things such as cable television. Prisoner A helps to keep the prison system functional, reduces labor cost, and builds habits of doing honest work every day for reward. Regardless of whether or not they carry on, it's worth it to try. Bored minds also tend to get destructive.

Prisoner B doesn't have access to such programs, so prisoner B supports him/herself by trying to smuggle drugs into the prison, increasing violence, inputting nothing into the system requiring a greater labor cost to run the prison and generally making things worse.

Which scenario is better?

[Handsome Rob]

Rehabilitation does gon in some prisons as I have seen it on different shows. Does anyone on here know for sure that prisoners aren't be rehabilitated?

Rehabilitation does good in some prisons as I have seen it on different shows. Does anyone here no for sure that prisoner can't be rehabilitated?

^^^^

Is this what you were trying to say?

I would say a great many of Canada's incarcerated are one time offenders, or at least only incarcerated once. I cannot quantify that, it's an opinion. Even if nobody could be rehabilitated, does nobody deserve a second chance for non-violent crimes?

I would also say that for people with 15 prior incarcerations, probably is going to re-offend. And such a person should be kept off the street for no other reason than to remove the burden they place on society.

For discussions sake, lets say the fellow in the discussion above about the ATV & Auto Theft had 15 priors for B&E and Theft, and ended up getting killed in this instance. Wouldn't his further incarceration have prevented a murder?

[treehugger]

Rehabilitation does good in some prisons as I have seen it on different shows. Does anyone here no for sure that prisoner can't be rehabilitated?

^^^^

Is this what you were trying to say?

I would say a great many of Canada's incarcerated are one time offenders, or at least only incarcerated once. I cannot quantify that, it's an opinion. Even if nobody could be rehabilitated, does nobody deserve a second chance for non-violent crimes?

I would also say that for people with 15 prior incarcerations, probably is going to re-offend. And such a person should be kept off the street for no other reason than to remove the burden they place on society.

For discussions sake, lets say the fellow in the discussion above about the ATV & Auto Theft had 15 priors for B&E and Theft, and ended up getting killed in this instance. Wouldn't his further incarceration have prevented a murder?

No that isn't what I said, that is what you said.

[guyser]

No that isn't what I said, that is what you said.

True, he used English.

Can you repeat what you meant in English?

[Scotty]

What kind of fucking loser tries to take a man's life because of stolen property?

That is a more serious crime than theft.

He's a degenerate.

We're talking about the life of a thief. That's not worth very much at all, and certainly not worth anything to a stranger. The stranger's own property is considerably more valuable. He likely worked very hard for it, after all.

[Scotty]

Rehabilitation does gon in some prisons as I have seen it on different shows. Does anyone on here know for sure that prisoners aren't be rehabilitated?

How do you 'rehabilitate' a man? Those prisoners who go on drug and alcohol treatment and stick to it can be changed. But those who are career criminals are not going to change because you chat with them and show them the 'error of their ways'. The only reason they'll ever change is when they get tired of spending so much time in jail.

[Sir Bandelot]

How do you 'rehabilitate' a man? Those prisoners who go on drug and alcohol treatment and stick to it can be changed. But those who are career criminals are not going to change because you chat with them and show them the 'error of their ways'. The only reason they'll ever change is when they get tired of spending so much time in jail.

And yet some even prefer gaol, compared to living under a bridge. Three squares a day, a TV, a gym. What's not to like? Compared to hopeless vagrancy.

Ahh, the insidious nature of mans inhumanity to man.

I would say a great many of Canada's incarcerated are one time offenders, or at least only incarcerated once.

I would say, there's no such thing as a one-time offender incarcerated only once.

All prison terms are life-sentences.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Sir Bandelot

[bloodyminded]

We're talking about the life of a thief. That's not worth very much at all, and certainly not worth anything to a stranger. The stranger's own property is considerably more valuable. He likely worked very hard for it, after all.

Clearly we have a monumental gulf in worldview, here. It could scarcely be larger.

Edited April 16, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Tilter]

Prisoner A agrees to work in the cafeteria for rewards such as resources to spend in the prison store, perks in the cell and things such as cable television. Prisoner A helps to keep the prison system functional, reduces labor cost, and builds habits of doing honest work every day for reward. Regardless of whether or not they carry on, it's worth it to try. Bored minds also tend to get destructive.

Prisoner B doesn't have access to such programs, so prisoner B supports him/herself by trying to smuggle drugs into the prison, increasing violence, inputting nothing into the system requiring a greater labor cost to run the prison and generally making things worse.

Which scenario is better?

BS

We are talking about the rehabilitation of criminals. A lot of prisoners act like A so they can get an early release, get out & act like prisoner B, to return again to prison & start the cycle again.

If a murderer like Homolka was facing a real life term there would be some thot given by the murderers in crimes like the murder of an 11 yr old in Stratford. Yet to be seen but if the Omnibus Crime bill finally passes these 2 killers will get a real life sentence and re'habbed or not, do some serious time for a cruel murder.

[Sir Bandelot]

BS

We are talking about the rehabilitation of criminals. A lot of prisoners act like A so they can get an early release, get out & act like prisoner B, to return again to prison & start the cycle again.

If a murderer like Homolka was facing a real life term there would be some thot given by the murderers in crimes like the murder of an 11 yr old in Stratford. Yet to be seen but if the Omnibus Crime bill finally passes these 2 killers will get a real life sentence and re'habbed or not, do some serious time for a cruel murder.

I agree you've touched on some very serious problems. The thing I really dislike about the omnibus bill and other bills put forth by cpc is that they include too many things in one bill.So while some of the bill is useful and brings the kind of changes I'd like to see, there are other completely unrelated components included that I cannot accept. Those things are not necessary, in my view and go too far. But they are part of an effort to bring a change or ideology of the right wing. I'm pretty sure the exact same criticism of CPC bills was raised in the english debate, by Mr. Duceppe.

[Handsome Rob]

BS

We are talking about the rehabilitation of criminals. A lot of prisoners act like A so they can get an early release, get out & act like prisoner B, to return again to prison & start the cycle again.

If a murderer like Homolka was facing a real life term there would be some thot given by the murderers in crimes like the murder of an 11 yr old in Stratford. Yet to be seen but if the Omnibus Crime bill finally passes these 2 killers will get a real life sentence and re'habbed or not, do some serious time for a cruel murder.

OK, but you have to come to terms with the fact that 99% of our prison population is not Paul Bernardo/Carla Homolka/Robert Picton.

[scouterjim]

All the bleeding hearts here should take all those poor criminals into their own homes if they feel so sorry for them.

[bloodyminded]

OK, but you have to come to terms with the fact that 99% of our prison population is not Paul Bernardo/Carla Homolka/Robert Picton.

Just so. The notion of a single entity called "criminals" tends to sort of psychologically erase profound distinctions. The average prison inmate is as far from these specimen as is the average person on the street.

[scouterjim]

OK, but you have to come to terms with the fact that 99% of our prison population is not Paul Bernardo/Carla Homolka/Robert Picton.

Nobody claims they are all in the same category as those three, but I, for one, still believe that ìf you do the crime, you do the time`, and you DON`T get treated like the prison is a holiday resort.

[Handsome Rob]

Nobody claims they are all in the same category as those three, but I, for one, still believe that ìf you do the crime, you do the time`, and you DON`T get treated like the prison is a holiday resort.

I quite agree.

-I don't think we ought to be throwing out harsh sentences for drug possession, shop lifting, etc. From criminology in 2002, this was the overwhelming majority of provincial 2 years less a day prisons. Don't know if this is still the case or the validity of that.

-From what the headlines lead one to believe, our sentencing for aggravated assault, racketeering, drug production and smuggling, B&E, etc are a joke. The headlines can be misleading, so I won't park an opinion.

-It goes without saying that some people should stay in prison. Carla Hamolka and co. I don't believe in 3 strikes, but I think when we hit 15 strikes or some such arbitrary number, it ought to be considered.

I don't see why non-serious offenders shouldn't be able to earn perks in prison for working to build a better life. Even if it doesn't go past the prison walls, it's better than the alternative (IE watching lockdown on Nat Geo). I don't see our prisons quite like that, but we have quite literally nothing to lose and much to gain.

[dre]

BS

We are talking about the rehabilitation of criminals. A lot of prisoners act like A so they can get an early release, get out & act like prisoner B, to return again to prison & start the cycle again.

If a murderer like Homolka was facing a real life term there would be some thot given by the murderers in crimes like the murder of an 11 yr old in Stratford. Yet to be seen but if the Omnibus Crime bill finally passes these 2 killers will get a real life sentence and re'habbed or not, do some serious time for a cruel murder.

Iv never seen any evidence at all that heavy sentences act as a deterent for murderers and other ultra violent criminals.

[guyser]

All the bleeding hearts here should take all those poor criminals into their own homes if they feel so sorry for them.

Aw thanks scooter. But no one has mentioned "feeling sorry" for criminals.

Posters who invite emotion in to the debate yes, but you likely know that already.

[bloodyminded]

Aw thanks scooter. But no one has mentioned "feeling sorry" for criminals.

Posters who invite emotion in to the debate yes, but you likely know that already.

You said it. When I object to the idea of someone shooting a thief in the back as he's running away, I'm invited to speculate on what I'd do if someone raped and murdered my family.

...the fuck are these people talking about?