The Nature of Evil

[bloodyminded]

If you're going to keep insisting, in your sanctimonious little shouty-voice, that all who are not opposed to abortion are "evil" and should aptly be compared to Hitler....

....well, I invite you to perform a difficult and potentially dangerous sex act upon your own person. Enjoy.

[betsy]

http://www.google.cat/imgres?imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_V09RaSn5H04/S_sNt6cSHLI/AAAAAAAAAP0/S_J5Lc6FFcU/s640/Malachi.jpg&imgrefurl=http://perpetualrose.blogspot.com/2010/05/believe-in-abortion-this-will-change.html&usg=__alKk6S0VGEJg9bID4dn6VkW7kWE=&h=355&w=400&sz=25&hl=en&start=10&zoom=1&tbnid=s0_QTPamJZSxMM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=129&ei=eKdzTY6oKs-Ctgelr6GEDw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dabortion%2Bpictures%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D1362%26bih%3D513%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=361&oei=D6dzTbntAoep8AaVjdmCDw&page=2&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:10&tx=83&ty=57

then -- 1873

"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."

-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, organizer of the first Women's Convention, Seneca Falls, N.Y., 1848

Now...

"We really need to get over this love affair with the fetus ..."

-- Dr. Joycelyn Elders, former U.S. Surgeon General*

"My Body, My Choice"

-- NOW (National Organization for Women)

Edited March 6, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

bloodyminded, you must not have read the forum guidelines. Typing in bold and/or enlarged font means you're WINNING and have tigerblood and adonis DNA.

[betsy]

Now...

"We really need to get over this love affair with the fetus ..."

-- Dr. Joycelyn Elders, former U.S. Surgeon General*

"My Body, My Choice" -- NOW (National Organization for Women)

Get over this love affair with your self.

[WIP]

Since betsy has resorted to quoting herself to keep talking about abortion...on a thread intended to discuss the philosophical problem of evil no less...I want to add in some recent stories in the news about the resurgence of blackmarket abortion drugs in the U.S.:

Cytotec: Rebirth of The "Coat Hanger" Abortion?...A New Drug Sold Online Is Used For "DIY" Abortions At Home

The title and subtitle pretty much explains it all. What this report is trying to study is a growing unknown in American society -- why there has been a surge in online sales of this drug, which is intended for treating ulcers, and has strong warning labels about the dangers of miscarriage for pregnant women.

Also:

The Edge of Shadow: Abortion Prohibition and the Black Market

Medical News Today reports:

Several recent studies suggest that U.S. women are increasingly seeking methods for self-induced abortions instead of visiting legal clinics that have become "embattled, increasingly costly and geographically inaccessible," The Nation reports. The article profiles a woman from Brownsville, Texas, to illustrate a common experience among women in the state’s Rio Grande Valley, where women, seeking to avoid social stigma and unable to afford medical care, travel to Mexico for cheap drugs to end their pregnancies. An ongoing Guttmacher Institute study shows that 79% of women who attempt self-induced abortions are from the U.S., with the women spread across 20 states.

As with practically any good or service that consumers want but find to be criminalized or in low supply, the black market will supply demand.

Dan Grossman of Ibis Reproductive Health, who has studied the topic of self-induced abortion, said, "I think our findings suggest that there are still significant barriers to abortion care in the United States," including the "high cost of abortion care — and in most states Medicaid cannot be used to cover abortion care." A bottle of misoprostol in a Mexican pharmacy can cost $87 to $167, while an uninsured woman in Texas can pay $450 to more than $900 for an abortion. According to Guttmacher, 75% of women who have an abortion say they cannot afford a child, and 42% of women who obtain the procedure have incomes below the federal poverty level.

While abortion is legal in the US, the lack of reasonable availability, both financial and actual accessibility leads to a de facto ban as long as the pregnant woman can afford to bypass the ban. Society can make this the case as much as it wants to and people have the right to place a stigma on abortion all they want – it is a first amendment right, after all – however that stigma and the high price attached to abortion procedures and medicine will lead people to a black market to meet their needs.

Now, it's not as if the rightwing theocrats haven't already considered this problem, even if they refuse to discuss it openly; you can bet that the absurd legislation being proposed in states across the U.S. lately to make women who suffer miscarriage the subject of criminal investigation, is motivated by the realization that abortion has already largely gone underground in the U.S.. This is already the situation further south in Catholic bastion - El Salvador, where NGO's have reported on several instances of women and girls being shackled to hospital beds to await forensic examination if they went in suffering internal bleeding, and were suspected of having a fetus aborted. The message should be simple to understand: when abortion is illegal it doesn't go away, it just goes to the blackmarket, just as it did 40 years ago before legalization. The difference is that now, with all of the information available on the internet, and the easy access to pharmaceutical drugs, blackmarket abortion will be easier to get than it was back then....although the dangers to women's health won't likely be much different.

It's a good time for any sane, rational person who believes that the rights of personhood should begin at conception (if there are any!) to pick up a copy of Margaret Atwood's near future sci fi classic: The Handmaid's Tale. That book was written at a time when the Christian Reconstructionist Movement was still largely hiding in the shadows of fundamentalist churches, but it provides a good glimpse of what sort of government Christian theocrats would run if and when they have the chance to carry out everything on their wish list.

[betsy]

Since betsy has resorted to quoting herself to keep talking about abortion...on a thread intended to discuss the philosophical problem of evil no less...

Yes, the discusssion of evil. The philosophical premise that.....no movement set out to say "we're going to do something evil. Period."

Thus the parallel between the evil of Hitler's Third Reich and Feminists' Abortion was brought up.

WIP:

I want to add in some recent stories in the news about the resurgence of blackmarket abortion drugs in the U.S.:

Cytotec: Rebirth of The "Coat Hanger" Abortion?...A New Drug Sold Online Is Used For "DIY" Abortions At Home

The title and subtitle pretty much explains it all. What this report is trying to study is a growing unknown in American society -- why there has been a surge in online sales of this drug, which is intended for treating ulcers, and has strong warning labels about the dangers of miscarriage for pregnant women.

There's still no excuse for the senseless killings of innocents.

Edited March 7, 2011 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

bloodyminded, you must not have read the forum guidelines. Typing in bold and/or enlarged font means you're WINNING and have tigerblood and adonis DNA.

There's a little bit of Charlie in everyone. But especially in the pornstars.

Edited March 6, 2011 by bloodyminded

[betsy]

Medical News Today reports:

Several recent studies suggest that U.S. women are increasingly seeking methods for self-induced abortions instead of visiting legal clinics that have become "embattled, increasingly costly and geographically inaccessible," The Nation reports. The article profiles a woman from Brownsville, Texas, to illustrate a common experience among women in the state’s Rio Grande Valley, where women, seeking to avoid social stigma and unable to afford medical care, travel to Mexico for cheap drugs to end their pregnancies. An ongoing Guttmacher Institute study shows that 79% of women who attempt self-induced abortions are from the U.S., with the women spread across 20 states.

As with practically any good or service that consumers want but find to be criminalized or in low supply, the black market will supply demand.

Dan Grossman of Ibis Reproductive Health, who has studied the topic of self-induced abortion, said, "I think our findings suggest that there are still significant barriers to abortion care in the United States," including the "high cost of abortion care — and in most states Medicaid cannot be used to cover abortion care." A bottle of misoprostol in a Mexican pharmacy can cost $87 to $167, while an uninsured woman in Texas can pay $450 to more than $900 for an abortion. According to Guttmacher, 75% of women who have an abortion say they cannot afford a child, and 42% of women who obtain the procedure have incomes below the federal poverty level.

While abortion is legal in the US, the lack of reasonable availability, both financial and actual accessibility leads to a de facto ban as long as the pregnant woman can afford to bypass the ban. Society can make this the case as much as it wants to and people have the right to place a stigma on abortion all they want – it is a first amendment right, after all – however that stigma and the high price attached to abortion procedures and medicine will lead people to a black market to meet their needs.

With all the birth control devices and pills available nowadays...including morning-after pills.... there's no excuse for having an unwanted pregnancy.

Those hollywood films cited in that link and the "plight" of women being thrown back to the "coat hanger" days of ancient past - the very usage of "coat hanger" is evidence enough - are nothing more than propaganda to promote the "good" in the evil of killing babies.

The fact is: we're no longer in the "coat-hanger" ages.

Birth control pills and condoms are reasonably priced. Society even give them away for free.

Should I cry for the girl who had options prior to getting pregnant.....or for the fetus who had no say or option at all?

Edited March 7, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

It's a good time for any sane, rational person who believes that the rights of personhood should begin at conception (if there are any!) to pick up a copy of Margaret Atwood's near future sci fi classic: The Handmaid's Tale. That book was written at a time when the Christian Reconstructionist Movement was still largely hiding in the shadows of fundamentalist churches, but it provides a good glimpse of what sort of government Christian theocrats would run if and when they have the chance to carry out everything on their wish list.

I don't think we need to resort to Margaret Atwood for our inspiration. Margaret Atwood's is a liberal relativist's fantasy.

George Orwell's vision became a reality.

[bloodyminded]

I don't think we need to resort to Margaret Atwood for our inspiration. Margaret Atwood's is a liberal relativist's fantasy.

George Orwell's vision became a reality.

George Orwell was more leftish-inclined than the self-described "Red Tory" Atwood, I should think.

Edited March 6, 2011 by bloodyminded

[betsy]

Since betsy has resorted to quoting herself to keep talking about abortion...on a thread intended to discuss the philosophical problem of evil no less...I want to add in some recent stories in the news about the resurgence of blackmarket abortion drugs in the U.S.:

Cytotec: Rebirth of The "Coat Hanger" Abortion?...A New Drug Sold Online Is Used For "DIY" Abortions At Home

The title and subtitle pretty much explains it all. What this report is trying to study is a growing unknown in American society -- why there has been a surge in online sales of this drug, which is intended for treating ulcers, and has strong warning labels about the dangers of miscarriage for pregnant women.

Also:

The Edge of Shadow: Abortion Prohibition and the Black Market

Medical News Today reports:

Several recent studies suggest that U.S. women are increasingly seeking methods for self-induced abortions instead of visiting legal clinics that have become "embattled, increasingly costly and geographically inaccessible," The Nation reports. The article profiles a woman from Brownsville, Texas, to illustrate a common experience among women in the state’s Rio Grande Valley, where women, seeking to avoid social stigma and unable to afford medical care, travel to Mexico for cheap drugs to end their pregnancies. An ongoing Guttmacher Institute study shows that 79% of women who attempt self-induced abortions are from the U.S., with the women spread across 20 states.

As with practically any good or service that consumers want but find to be criminalized or in low supply, the black market will supply demand.

Dan Grossman of Ibis Reproductive Health, who has studied the topic of self-induced abortion, said, "I think our findings suggest that there are still significant barriers to abortion care in the United States," including the "high cost of abortion care — and in most states Medicaid cannot be used to cover abortion care." A bottle of misoprostol in a Mexican pharmacy can cost $87 to $167, while an uninsured woman in Texas can pay $450 to more than $900 for an abortion. According to Guttmacher, 75% of women who have an abortion say they cannot afford a child, and 42% of women who obtain the procedure have incomes below the federal poverty level.

While abortion is legal in the US, the lack of reasonable availability, both financial and actual accessibility leads to a de facto ban as long as the pregnant woman can afford to bypass the ban. Society can make this the case as much as it wants to and people have the right to place a stigma on abortion all they want – it is a first amendment right, after all – however that stigma and the high price attached to abortion procedures and medicine will lead people to a black market to meet their needs.

Now, it's not as if the rightwing theocrats haven't already considered this problem, even if they refuse to discuss it openly; you can bet that the absurd legislation being proposed in states across the U.S. lately to make women who suffer miscarriage the subject of criminal investigation, is motivated by the realization that abortion has already largely gone underground in the U.S.. This is already the situation further south in Catholic bastion - El Salvador, where NGO's have reported on several instances of women and girls being shackled to hospital beds to await forensic examination if they went in suffering internal bleeding, and were suspected of having a fetus aborted. The message should be simple to understand: when abortion is illegal it doesn't go away, it just goes to the blackmarket, just as it did 40 years ago before legalization. The difference is that now, with all of the information available on the internet, and the easy access to pharmaceutical drugs, blackmarket abortion will be easier to get than it was back then....although the dangers to women's health won't likely be much different.

It's a good time for any sane, rational person who believes that the rights of personhood should begin at conception (if there are any!) to pick up a copy of Margaret Atwood's near future sci fi classic: The Handmaid's Tale. That book was written at a time when the Christian Reconstructionist Movement was still largely hiding in the shadows of fundamentalist churches, but it provides a good glimpse of what sort of government Christian theocrats would run if and when they have the chance to carry out everything on their wish list.

Instead of Atwood, here's what our wish should be:

If all the resources, passion and energy of the left is concentrated more in the full-scale propaganda of promoting the usage of condoms....there would hardly be any unwanted pregnancies, and AIDS, HIV, HPV etc..,

After all if propaganda to anti-smoking worked, why should we think it wouldn't in promotion of condoms? If we made the smoker feel like a "phariah" for lighting up, and eliminated the places where he could light up....I guess outright banning of abortion should drive the message to use the condom!

That propaganda would also help - from the leftist perspective - with the population explosion in the third world, and food shortage!

And no fetus needlessly die.

Edited March 6, 2011 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

If all the resources, passion and energy of the left is concentrated more in the full-scale propaganda of promoting the usage of condoms....there would hardly be any unwanted pregnancies, and AIDS, HIV, HPV etc..,

That would also help - from the leftist perspective - with the population explosion in the third world, and food shortage!

And no fetus needlessly die.

If it weren't for the left, I daresay there wouldn't be the widespread use of birth control devices that we currently enjoy.

Your argument is with the Catholics, who would rather watch Africans die of AIDS than go against their retrograde, hostile to birth control dogma.

[betsy]

If it weren't for the left, I daresay there wouldn't be the widespread use of birth control devices that we currently enjoy.

And it should stop there.

If it weren't for the left we wouldn't have the widespread use of abortion as a birth control method of last resort either. Not to suggest that abortion hasn't evolved beyond last resorts.

Your argument is with the Catholics, who would rather watch Africans die of AIDS than go against their retrograde, hostile to birth control dogma.

Never mind the Catholics. We're not talking about the Catholics. My argument is with the pro-abortionists. We're talking about abortion.

Edited March 6, 2011 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

And it should stop there.

If it weren't for the left we wouldn't have the widespread use of abortion as a birth control method of last resort either. Not to suggest that abortion hasn't evolved beyond last resorts.

Never mind the Catholics. We're not talking about the Catholics. My argument is with the pro-abortionists. We're talking about abortion.

No, you wish to shift the conversation around as it pleases you; but you've determined that you are the sole arbiter of what the parameters of the discussion should be.

Not all of us agree.

You brought up "the left" and "birth control"; I answered the point that you brought up; and now you're declaring it off topic.

[betsy]

No, you wish to shift the conversation around as it pleases you; but you've determined that you are the sole arbiter of what the parameters of the discussion should be.

Not all of us agree.

You brought up "the left" and "birth control"; I answered the point that you brought up; and now you're declaring it off topic.

I'm just stating a fact. The topic is about evil, not about the Catholic Church, regardless of your opinion of Roman Catholicism. Don't you change the topic. The topic is evil. The topic is abortion.

Edited March 6, 2011 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

I'm just stating a fact. The topic is about evil, not about the Catholic Church, regardless of your opinion of Roman Catholicism. Don't you change the topic. The topic is evil. The topic is abortion.

The topic--which you raised--is also how the "left" hasn't done enough about promoting birth control.

I countered that the Left has done most of the promotion of birth control.

The Right has done...well, more or less nothing, though they're enjoying the fruits of the Left's labours in this regard.

But ok, you want to drop the topic you raised, and go back to abortion. That's fine. But don't pretend I'm going off-track, simply because I mentioned the words "Catholic Church."

When talking about ignoring birth control, and then blaming "the left" for this ( I still can't believe it!)...mentioning the Catholic church seems a pretty obvious and organic step in the discussion, don't you think?

Edited March 6, 2011 by bloodyminded

[GostHacked]

Won't someone think of the children that are already alive and need our help. Plenty of good kids need a home (adoption). Until we solve that evil, abort as many pregnancies as we can. OH sure I'll get flack for that, but man, the people who cry out against abortion are the same ones who won't do anything for the child once they are born.

Tell me who is really evil?

[scorpio]

There's still no excuse for the senseless killings of innocents.

Okay Betsy, let's say abortion was outlawed. Are you and your conservative cronies going to be the first in line to adopt all the unwanted babies?? Didn't think so.

[betsy]

Okay Betsy, let's say abortion was outlawed. Are you and your conservative cronies going to be the first in line to adopt all the unwanted babies?? Didn't think so.

You don't think so? How do you know?

Btw, you seem to suggest that kids should be murdered since there will be nobody to adopt them. Talk about slippery slopes! With your kind of thinking, children in orphanages should start trembling in their boots. Children at full term are already not seeing the light of day because of that type of thinking.

Anyway, don't worry if abortion is outlawed, those who are self-centered enough to have an abortion in the first place wouldn't hesitate to have one anyway, and futhermore they'd be far more likely to make sure they didn't get themselves into the position of needing to have one. The most logical for them is not to get pregnant!

Edited March 7, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

deleted. double posting.

Edited March 7, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

double posting.

Edited March 7, 2011 by betsy

[jbg]

If I understand correctly, those of faith believe that Satan/Lucifer/etc was a cherub made perfect in God's image, but because Lucifer was so beautiful it went to is head and corrupted himself to the extent that he wanted to be God. Of course God would have none of that, so he threw out his once perfect creation, along with 30% of the other perfect creations and cast them into hell. And thus Lucifer began a war for the souls of mankind. And from this we have Satan spreading evil. Like evil is something you can catch.

My religion doesn't have Satan or Lucifer so either we have no evil or there must be another source.

[cybercoma]

There's still no excuse for the senseless killings of innocents.

There is an excuse. She doesn't want to be pregnant, give birth or become a mother. It's not senseless. It actually makes a lot of sense. Just not to you.

[cybercoma]

You don't think so? How do you know?

Because there's a shortage of foster parents around the country, so you guys are definitely not doing your part.

[GostHacked]

You don't think so? How do you know?

Btw, you seem to suggest that kids should be murdered since there will be nobody to adopt them. Talk about slippery slopes! With your kind of thinking, children in orphanages should start trembling in their boots. Children at full term are already not seeing the light of day because of that type of thinking.

Not one person on this forum thinks kids should be killed because no one wants to adopt them.

those who are self-centered enough to have an abortion in the first place wouldn't hesitate to have one anyway,

My sister at 15 had no choice but to get an abortion. My parents made that decision. It was the right thing to do. I don't even know all the specifics, but that is what happened. Why ruin two lives.

and futhermore they'd be far more likely to make sure they didn't get themselves into the position of needing to have one. The most logical for them is not to get pregnant!

Well, can't argue with that kind of logic. The only way not to get fat is to stop eating. And we can take all the precautions regarding birth control and pregnancies still occurr.

You are still my fave troll Betsy.

Edited March 7, 2011 by GostHacked