Jack Weber Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 When will the lockout start? I suspect before training camp opens...In the middle of July... And again,lockout is the correct term becuase this will be job action by the employer,not the other way around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 The thing going for the Steelers is that they have had a week off,Roethlesberger has had an extra week to rest his foot,and,Polamalu has has a week to rest his Achilles?(I know he's a little banged up and I think that was the problem.)For all of Polamalu's ability,I have to disagree...Not on his ability,but his contribution to the Steeler defence...Personally,the key to the Steeler defence is their Linebacker play,particularily James Harrison,Larry Foote,and,James Farrior.It's the speed and yackling ability of those three that determine how the Steelers do because of the 3-4 D that Dick LeBeau plays.Remember,it was Harrison's INT for a touchdown that won the Super Bowl 2 years ago.It was also Polamalu vacating his Safety position that allowed Larry Fitzgerald to score what looked like the winning TD on a relatively short pass and run. My point is this: a health Troy Polamalu is going to turn a mediocre defence into a good one and what he does at safety opens quite a few doors with respect to what linebackers can do. Sure, the Steeler LB core is very good, but they are better because Polamalu is there. They wouldn't be getting the same looks with Donte Whitner or TJ Ward. Of course, everyone makes mistakes. Even James Farrior. I would also say that this is the reason for the Packer success...Clay Mathews and A.J.Hawke are the reason that the Packers D is so effective. Add in a Charles Woodson,who I think is a better all around defensive player than Polamalu,and you've got a recipe for success. My beef about Woodson is that when he is off his game he is terrible. When Polamalu is off he is average or injured. Ray Lewis???PPPfffftttt... Ray Lewis can only be judged by the Gold Standard for all Linebackers.And he comes up short! There's Butkus,and then there's everybody else! Yeah, Butkus was pretty good, even playing on horribly mediocre teams. In fact, he WAS the Bears D for years. Ray Lewis has only one Super Bowl win + MVP and then some 7 playoff appearances. Heck, even LT played for only 2 Super Bowl teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think comparing players across generations is a sign of idiocy more than anything else. Hell, comparing players between positions, safety and linebacker and cornerback (I mean, seriously?), is almost as idiotic. Sure, Ray and Troy and Charles may be a bit more freewheeling than others in their positions but this is getting absolutely ridiculous. You guys do realize that there are differences in team defense schemes, that it is doubtful that you have watched these guys in more than a few snaps (i.e. small sample size), and often you don't even necessarily see what they are doing due to poor TV angles (i.e. we're not getting the all-22 point of view)? For an example of this see this article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) I think comparing players across generations is a sign of idiocy more than anything else. Hell, comparing players between positions, safety and linebacker and cornerback (I mean, seriously?), is almost as idiotic. Sure, Ray and Troy and Charles may be a bit more freewheeling than others in their positions but this is getting absolutely ridiculous. You guys do realize that there are differences in team defense schemes, that it is doubtful that you have watched these guys in more than a few snaps (i.e. small sample size), and often you don't even necessarily see what they are doing due to poor TV angles (i.e. we're not getting the all-22 point of view)? For an example of this see this article. You do realize that Dom Capers (GB DC) is a Dick LeBeau (Pitt DC) disciple,right. You do realize that both teams run a 3-4 defensive alignment that demands virtually the same athletic skills out of the same positions,right? You do realize,for example,that Clay Mathews (GB OLB) plays James Harrison's(Pitt OLB) position in Dom Capers defrense,right... The comparison is easy... Dick Butkus was a Middle Linebacker who was 6"3" and over 250 lb's at a time when most LB's were much smaller...Essentially a "Jim Brown' type of player at his position,if you know what I mean.There's no doubt that,physically he could easily play with today's larger and faster players... The REAL question is that,with the unmitigated violence he brought to the position,would he have any money left at the end of the year because of the fines that he would have incurred on himself in today's "nice guy" NFL?!? As far as my comprehension of the game goes,I played it for 11 years,my Dad coached me for 3 of those years,and,his Uncle has his name on the grey Cup 4 times and is in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame.I'm one of these strange people that actually pays to go to football games and does'nt watch the QB!I usually watch how the defence lines up and flows to the ball carrier(mainly because I played defence)I'm one of these people who does'nt have to think about the terms "Weak Side" or "Strong Side" Linebacker (Or in Canada,a SAM or a WILL Linebacker) etc... Edited January 15, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think comparing players across generations is a sign of idiocy more than anything else. I think automatically dismissing a generational comparison or discussion of players without any backing argument or proof is a sign of idiocy. Hell, comparing players between positions, safety and linebacker and cornerback (I mean, seriously?), is almost as idiotic. What a dumb thing to say. Let's never compare receivers with cornerbacks. Duh. Sure, Ray and Troy and Charles may be a bit more freewheeling than others in their positions but this is getting absolutely ridiculous. Only because you say so which, without any corresponding reasons for saying so, asserts that you are an idiot. You guys do realize that there are differences in team defense schemes, that it is doubtful that you have watched these guys in more than a few snaps (i.e. small sample size), and often you don't even necessarily see what they are doing due to poor TV angles (i.e. we're not getting the all-22 point of view)? No shit Sherlock, let me guess, Bills fan right? I think that is why they have "analysts" on TV -many of them coaches that have access to illustrate different angles. Etc. For an example of this see this article. If it’s frustrating that you can’t discern such things, you’re not alone, and that’s not just a fan-centric issue. I discovered this while talking to Hugh Millen, the former NFL quarterback who now analyzes the Seahawks for KCPQ (television) and KJR (radio). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 You do realize that Dom Capers (GB DC) is a Dick LeBeau (Pitt DC) disciple,right. You do realize that both teams run a 3-4 defensive alignment that demands virtually the same athletic skills out of the same positions,right? You do realize,for example,that Clay Mathews (GB OLB) plays James Harrison's(Pitt OLB) position in Dom Capers defrense,right... The comparison is easy... Dick Butkus was a Middle Linebacker who was 6"3" and over 250 lb's at a time when most LB's were much smaller...Essentially a "Jim Brown' type of player at his position,if you know what I mean.There's no doubt that,physically he could easily play with today's larger and faster players... The REAL question is that,with the unmitigated violence he brought to the position,would he have any money left at the end of the year because of the fines that he would have incurred on himself in today's "nice guy" NFL?!? As far as my comprehension of the game goes,I played it for 11 years,my Dad coached me for 3 of those years,and,his Uncle has his name on the grey Cup 4 times and is in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame.I'm one of these strange people that actually pays to go to football games and does'nt watch the QB!I usually watch how the defence lines up and flows to the ball carrier(mainly because I played defence)I'm one of these people who does'nt have to think about the terms "Weak Side" or "Strong Side" Linebacker (Or in Canada,a SAM or a WILL Linebacker) etc... Yeah, so... what do you know? I've only been watching - on TV and in the stands - football for about 40 years now. Of course, I turn the sound off on broadcasts so I can make up my own analysis because the guys on TV have no clue. Back to Butkus - yeah, I think he would be fined alot, but in comparison to LT (a player from another generation) - not a whole lot more. Well not on the field maybe. Plus they never really kept stats on Butkus' ability to force fumbles, you know like Giants DE Umenyiora who forced 10 this year. OMG Jack, I just compared a DE to a generational LB! O-M-G!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Sacrelidge!!!! By the way,Lawrence Taylor redifned the Outside Linebacker position,but he had a spectacular supporting cast on those Giants defences...Can you name anyone on those Bear D's around Butkus other than maybe O'Bradovitch,J.C.Caroline,and,Doug Buffone?Doug Atkins,a truly great Defensive End,left in '67??? Man...The Pack looks great right about now.... Edited January 16, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Packers!!!! Yesssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Packers-Bears would be an awesome game. Edited January 16, 2011 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 Ray Lewis is the best ILB ever to play the game. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 Ray Lewis is the best ILB ever to play the game. Period. Please back that statement up...And I notice that you deftly put ILB instead of MLB... I don't think Lewis was better than Sam Huff, Ray Nitschke,or,Chuck Bednarik and neither of those were better than Butkus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 Sam Huff, Ray Nitschke,or,Chuck Bednarik and neither of those were better than Butkus... If those players had to play in today's NFL, they'd be a lot different. Ray Lewis plays in an era when the league continues to chage rules in order to favour offenses. Which means overall, Lewis is definitely better than all of them. Not to mention he's faster, stronger, bigger, and a better athlete as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) If those players had to play in today's NFL, they'd be a lot different. Ray Lewis plays in an era when the league continues to chage rules in order to favour offenses. Which means overall, Lewis is definitely better than all of them. Not to mention he's faster, stronger, bigger, and a better athlete as well. And Lewis plays in an era where there are more teams and larger rosters.This has had the unfortuate effect of allowing marginal players roster spots when they would'nt have made a practice roster 45 years ago. The rules that are enforced to allow for more offence relate to contact on recevers downfield.As an aside,I have more respect for the career's of the likes of Charlie Taylor,Paul Warfield,and,Steve Largent tna mose receivers today. Ray Lewis is 6'1" and about 250 lb's... When playing,Dick Butkus was 6'3" and 245 lb's.. Those are very comparable physical numbers... While Lewis is a very good tackler,there are tw key area's where he follows Butkus in a fairly obvious fashion... 1.Butkus had the uncanny ability to almost never be blocked cleanly and remain agressive.Lewis' agressiveness has carried him out of plays and and got him blocked more easily... 2.Butkus was very good at reading a play and getting back into coverage.Lewis in not as good at this...Partly because he's played with a very good secondary (guys like Ed Reed and Chris McAllister) and partly because he's fairly weak at this part of his game. I would put Lewis in the category of a Willie Lanier,who played for the Chiefs.A very good linebacker with very good instincts,sze,and,speed but just a cut below Butkus... I agree with you that the likes of Butkus,Bednarik,Huff,and,Nitschke really could'nt play their game today.Mainly because pro football has become sissified.I've heared Butkus say that there's no way he could play today because he would be considered far to violent and he would'nt make any money because he would fined into poverty! Edited January 16, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 Cheeseheads vs The Monsters of the Midway at Soldier Field next Sunday!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) For Shwa and Jack Weber: I really don't want to get into some chest thumping pissing match, and, in the interests of brevity, I will respond to both of you as follows: 1) I have not automatically dismissed a generational comparison. Yes, they are interesting. However, due to perception, memory, and bias, they are completely worthless unless you are willing to sit down and watch hundreds of snaps for each player being compared. Even then, even a knowledgeable viewer (such as Tim Ryan in the article I linked to) doesn't know the play call and does not know to what extent the players screwed up (sure, more of a problem for plays as indicated in that article, but still, it is a factor in all plays). 2) The analysts on Tee Vee are usually complete idiots who get many things wrong. To rely on them is a sure sign of idiocy. The only sure way to judge defenders (particularly safeties and cornerbacks) is to have a wide angle view of the entire field. Ordinary people like us rarely get to see these views. And even when we do (such as when we get to go to a live game) the action is so fast that it is unlikely that we can truly judge players on the field against a player we saw on TV last week/month/year. 3) I think that since the offense has opened up (especially since the 1978 rule changes) passing has become a greater part of the game which makes intergenerational comparisons more difficult (to varying degrees depending on position, of course). Defence has evolved to keep up with offense and various blocking schemes today did not exist at all in Butkus' day due to many changes made in 1978 and since then. 4) Players are faster, bigger (well, Butkus and Lewis are about the same size) and more intelligent (subjective I know, but given that younger generations have a higher IQ than previous generations I am extrapolating this to football players too - despite the existence of Vince Young). For Lewis to play at a high level for as long as he has is simply incredible. Does it make him better than Butkus? I don't know and don't care as I think any comparison is idiotic since it is so subjective (though interesting). I would like to know what the average size of the linemen and running backs are in the past 10 years vs the years that Butkus played for Chicago. 5) Notice that? I want facts - size of players, views of the entire defence to see what role other players and the defensive call play, a large sample of snaps to be viewed to ensure that enough snaps are viewed within a decent amount of time to ensure memory is not compromised (although recency effect has to be controlled for) etc.... 6) I have never doubted anyone's comprehension of the game. In fact, given that we are talking about perception, memory and bias, it is psychology that is being discussed. I don't care if you can spot weak side and strong side quickly. What's relevant to this discussion is if one can let go of their biases, some of which may have nothing to do with the play on the field (for example, against Ray Lewis - the alleged murderer), and understand that perception and memory are very poor when it comes down to being able to rate players. Edited January 17, 2011 by msj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 For Shwa and Jack Weber: I really don't want to get into some chest thumping pissing match, and, in the interests of brevity, I will respond to both of you as follows: Chirp and run is your style then is it? 1) I have not automatically dismissed a generational comparison. Yes, they are interesting. However, due to perception, memory, and bias, they are completely worthless unless you are willing to sit down and watch hundreds of snaps for each player being compared. There are interesting, period. No one is trying to develop the ultimate science of football or turn into a pro coach. The whole point of fans discussion is "...perception, memory and bias..." So you got your idea of worth turned around son. 2) The analysts on Tee Vee are usually complete idiots who get many things wrong. To rely on them is a sure sign of idiocy. Rely on them for what? Some sort of objective datasets that can be input into a determinative algorithm to sort rankings? Some sort of objective quality system? Let's put it this way - I would trust the opionion of a Championship winning coach over what you have to say about his opinion - any day. The only sure way to judge defenders (particularly safeties and cornerbacks) is to have a wide angle view of the entire field. Ordinary people like us rarely get to see these views. And even when we do (such as when we get to go to a live game) the action is so fast that it is unlikely that we can truly judge players on the field against a player we saw on TV last week/month/year. "Judge them" for what purpose? For a discussion on an Internet forum we need to see 400 angles of film, slow motion and determinative calculations? LOFL! 3) I think that since the offense has opened up (especially since the 1978 rule changes) passing has become a greater part of the game which makes intergenerational comparisons more difficult (to varying degrees depending on position, of course).Defence has evolved to keep up with offense and various blocking schemes today did not exist at all in Butkus' day due to many changes made in 1978 and since then. Really? This is what you think?? Based on what? Sounds like a bunch of "...perception, memory and bias..." to me. LOFL! blah, blah, blah.5) Notice that? I want facts - size of players, views of the entire defence to see what role other players and the defensive call play, a large sample of snaps to be viewed to ensure that enough snaps are viewed within a decent amount of time to ensure memory is not compromised (although recency effect has to be controlled for) etc.... Then why don't you bring some "facts" to the discussion instead of your opinion of the discussion itself? Yeah, I can see why psychology would be so important to you when discussing football. It's because you're nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 [snip a bunch of drivel] It's because you're nuts. I guess I am for thinking that I could have any kind of intelligent discussion on this issue with the likes of you or Jack. Lets just wallow in our own little subjective opinions on things and not even attempt to establish logic or reason as a basis to make an interesting discussion somewhat more coherent, logical and more objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I guess I am for thinking that I could have any kind of intelligent discussion on this issue with the likes of you or Jack. I am calling you on your horsehit. According to your logic, one is disallowed from meaningful discussion because it doesn't fit with some form of legitimacy framed by your opinion of what the form is. You even suggest that Super Bowl winning coaches are idiots. Good God, you failed the "intelligent discussion" test right there. Lets just wallow in our own little subjective opinions on things and not even attempt to establish logic or reason as a basis to make an interesting discussion somewhat more coherent, logical and more objective. According to your logic fans cannot have meaningful discussion because they didn't see all the game films and the all the snaps from 36 different angles. Oh, the psychology! Gimme a break. Seriously, if you got something to add, go for it. Just try not be a douche while doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Cheeseheads vs The Monsters of the Midway at Soldier Field next Sunday!!! Which is perfect. Now if the Steelers can get by those pesky Jets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 If those players had to play in today's NFL, they'd be a lot different. Ray Lewis plays in an era when the league continues to chage rules in order to favour offenses. Which means overall, Lewis is definitely better than all of them. Not to mention he's faster, stronger, bigger, and a better athlete as well. From Pro Football Reference.com Butkus Lambert Taylor Lewis The interesting stat box is their 'Similar Players' box near the bottom of the page... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Butkus Lewis The interesting stat box is their 'Similar Players' box near the bottom of the page... I find it interesting that in his first 9 seasons Ray Lewis got 128 AV points to Butkus' 117. Overall, Lewis leads (due to longer career) 188 to 117. I have had differences of opinion over the methodology used by PFR and will not go over that with a Dick (pun intended) like Shwa (because it would be a mutual waste of time). I have always enjoyed the "similar players" table which is always fun. Unsurprisingly, I still think such a comparison is idiotic: Butkus was the greatest of his time, Lewis likely is the greatest for the past 10 or 11 years. I don't want to come across as a defender of Lewis - I don't really care if he is objectively greater than or lesser than Butkus. I just want the level of debate over such things to be raised above "I saw Butkus 40 years ago and saw Lewis yesterday and Butkus is way better" and "Championship coach X said this about player Y and player Z so therefore it must be true." Appealing to subjective perception/memory and appealing to authority, respectively, are very poor ways to conduct an argument. Edited January 17, 2011 by msj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 "Judge them" for what purpose? For a discussion on an Internet forum we need to see 400 angles of film, slow motion and determinative calculations? I'm coining the term "Shwazinger." (Bold the last two syllables for clarity, if needed, but I prefer the relative subtlety of it as is.) My term. Intellectual Property rights. See The Social Network for an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I just want the level of debate over such things to be raised above "I saw Butkus 40 years ago and saw Lewis yesterday and Butkus is way better" and "Championship coach X said this about player Y and player Z so therefore it must be true." Appealing to subjective perception/memory and appealing to authority, respectively, are very poor ways to conduct an argument. So is the strawman, which you have done here - rather clumsily too, I might add. So you argue for decorum all the while wallowing in the muck yourself. Very douche-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I'm coining the term "Shwazinger." (Bold the last two syllables for clarity, if needed, but I prefer the relative subtlety of it as is.) My term. Intellectual Property rights. See The Social Network for an example. Fair enough, but I demand a suitable pension for my efforts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 So is the strawman, which you have done here - rather clumsily too, I might add. So you argue for decorum all the while wallowing in the muck yourself. Very douche-like. Sure, I can call a spade a spade while adding substance (and even the odd link to articles backing up my POV too). My apologies for offending you for preferring statistical methods over your preference for subjective viewpoints. I still think it is idiotic to rate players based on one's own perceptions of how they play/played when the players have played the game 20 or more years apart. At least PFR has laid down a methodology using stats but even that has weaknesses. There are other outlets on the internet for people like me and people like you to discuss such things in our preferred ways so I will leave it at that. And I know few people enjoy puns but I was just having a bit of fun because the opportunity presented itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I find it interesting that in his first 9 seasons Ray Lewis got 128 AV points to Butkus' 117. Overall, Lewis leads (due to longer career) 188 to 117. I have had differences of opinion over the methodology used by PFR and will not go over that with a Dick (pun intended) like Shwa (because it would be a mutual waste of time). I have always enjoyed the "similar players" table which is always fun. Unsurprisingly, I still think such a comparison is idiotic: Butkus was the greatest of his time, Lewis likely is the greatest for the past 10 or 11 years. I don't want to come across as a defender of Lewis - I don't really care if he is objectively greater than or lesser than Butkus. I just want the level of debate over such things to be raised above "I saw Butkus 40 years ago and saw Lewis yesterday and Butkus is way better" and "Championship coach X said this about player Y and player Z so therefore it must be true." Appealing to subjective perception/memory and appealing to authority, respectively, are very poor ways to conduct an argument. Well,being born in 1970,I can say I never saw Butkus play...Or if I did,I don't remember it! As I stated before,from what I've seen of film,I put Butkus ahead of Lewis in two(2) categories... 1.The ability to shed a block and get to the ball carrier.This is key to playing the Middle Linebacker position... 2.The ability to read a play and get back into pass coverage These are the two areas of defensive play that Butkus was superior to Ray Lewis. To your point about AV points over a 9 year span...I think it would be instructive to realize that Butkus played in an era of the 14 game season and Lewis played in a 16 game season era.In otherwords,Lewis in that time span,played in 18 more football games.That's where that discrepancy(sp) comes into play Again,I think it's alos instructive to realize the cast of characters surrounding each player.I would wager that excellect ballplayers like Chris McAllister,Ed Reed,Bart Scott,Terrell Suggs,and,Tony Siragusa could only enhance Lewis'play.I defy anyone to point out to me,or anyone else,a cast of players that talented that surrounded Butkus from '65 to '73? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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