First Nations governance and compensation

[charter.rights]

You completely ignored my main point. If we lost in the World Court, why should we care? What mechanism would force us to accept their ruling? Why on earth would any Canadian politician accede to a World Court ruling if it was unpopular with the majority of potential voters here in Canada?

I didn't ignore your point. It would make a difference if the government told FN to go there and accepted the outcome. In any case we would probably be in the middle of a native revolution if Canada ignore our responsibilities. So your point is moot. It was Jerry's suggestion that it was a viable option. I merely suggested it wasn't.

[charter.rights]

I'm just saying that CR's financial claim is so far out into orbit as to be a mathematical impossibility. This makes his position useless for opening negotiations...

I get it now. You can't count that high. But don't believe for a second that the Feds can't count hat high. They are well aware at how much everything is worth...and even though they have tried to minimize it they can't convince much smarter FN accountants that $25 million even comes close to a $500 million value.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Charter recognizes that First Nations are not Canadians and protects them from unscrupulous dealings. Hence Sect. 25, and 35 provides that we cannot remove those rights, or reduce them in favour of other rights we may have, as well as recognizing that the existing treaties are still valid. My argument if still intact. It is your ignorance that is killing your argument.

Jerry, we can't change our relationship with First Nations without also destroying what Canada has become. Canada does not want to go to international court, either. Just take a read of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Not only would we lose, but we would end up having to pay out what we owe immediately putting us in peril. No, your ignorant solution would destroy Canada (which may not be a bad thing) and open the doors for unregulated corruption, and take-over by the US. I'm sure you wouldn't want that, now would you.....

Yes I do want this. Its time to put this argument to bed, the First Nations need closure on this even more than this nation does, and the time is right to do something about it. I don't think it would put the country in peril, just think of the precedent involved. No functional judicial system will allow a nation to be torn up about this or anything else. The reality is that there would be some beatings to take and some crow to eat on both sides of the fence, but in the end the peoples would be free. That is the only important thing to consider, its either that or the entire argument is without foundation. So the question is this, should justice be done or not? If yes, then why has it taken centuries to resolve, and does that mitigate either guilt or responsibility? If no, then the fabric of our society has always been compromised and below an acceptable grade value.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Withdraw our support, give them all their lands back and you can buy the boat tickets back to England. Or France as your surname suggests. Parlez vous francais?

What I said was give them control of their own lands, the reserves, and cut the purse strings. Either they are Canadian or not, let them pick and choose. Give these folks the right to speak on their own behalf. Let them setup their own systems of governance with all that goes with it.

Heck, with all this landbase, why the courts? They could rent Calgary out to some Asian tourists and get the place spruced up at the same time. Win-win for the Indians!

You can already see the legal First Nations land holdings on any road map. Those lands represent what you claim is a "land base". Big deal. Care to dispute it? Then bring it on in a sanctioned venue and get it done. Its time to crap or get off the pot and podium at the same time.

[charter.rights]

What I said was give them control of their own lands, the reserves, and cut the purse strings. Either they are Canadian or not, let them pick and choose. Give these folks the right to speak on their own behalf. Let them setup their own systems of governance with all that goes with it.

You can already see the legal First Nations land holdings on any road map. Those lands represent what you claim is a "land base". Big deal. Care to dispute it? Then bring it on in a sanctioned venue and get it done. Its time to crap or get off the pot and podium at the same time.

Wars were fought over less.

International court would be good if Canada would comply with its rulings. They won't because they would lose most land claims.

You do also understand that all of Canada is First Nations land? Treaties did not give us the land. All they gave us was a usufruct to certain parts of it, and legally all the land is still theirs. So what would YOU do when the government tells you to get lost in order that all the treaties are dissolved and all the land reverts back to exclusive FN land. Would you comply?

[Saipan]

Well, let me take you seriously then. Who said that the amounts owed need to be paid back in cash? How about lands and assets?

Post Treaty showing anything is owed.

The whole enchilada, with Casinos, free post secondary education - the works.

[Shwa]

What I said was give them control of their own lands, the reserves, and cut the purse strings. Either they are Canadian or not, let them pick and choose. Give these folks the right to speak on their own behalf. Let them setup their own systems of governance with all that goes with it.

The "own lands" once the "purse strings" are cut, by definition is practically the whole country since the "purse strings" is the rights and guarantees of the the treaties. So givng them their lands back, essentialy allowing them to become our collective landlords, would be giving them governance over you.

You can already see the legal First Nations land holdings on any road map. Those lands represent what you claim is a "land base". Big deal. Care to dispute it? Then bring it on in a sanctioned venue and get it done. Its time to crap or get off the pot and podium at the same time.

You don't know what a treaty is do you?

[Shwa]

Post Treaty showing anything is owed.

The whole enchilada, with Casinos, free post secondary education - the works.

Do own research. Get back to us with result.

[Shwa]

If you're implying that some sort of negotiation and quid pro quo is possible I would agree that is a rational option. I'm just saying that CR's financial claim is so far out into orbit as to be a mathematical impossibility.

Well, since I am taking you seriously, are you saying the sum total of lands, assets, property and such in Canada is irrational math?

[Wild Bill]

Well, since I am taking you seriously, are you saying the sum total of lands, assets, property and such in Canada is irrational math?

I said nothing of the sort!

What I DID say is that CR's estimate of trillions is such a huge sum that Canada could never possibly pay it!

Did you actually read anything I posted or do I have to keep quoting myself for your benefit? I got other things to do!

[charter.rights]

I said nothing of the sort!

What I DID say is that CR's estimate of trillions is such a huge sum that Canada could never possibly pay it!

Did you actually read anything I posted or do I have to keep quoting myself for your benefit? I got other things to do!

Here is what you followed up with:

I'm just saying that CR's financial claim is so far out into orbit as to be a mathematical impossibility.

So are you saying the sum of the value of lands, assets, properties and resources cannot be equated mathematically?

There is a price on everything in Canada even if it means we owe most of it to First Nations. Our debt can't be wiped out just because you think it might be difficult to come up with the payments.

However, in lieu of taking land in lieu of cash owed, Six Nations as recently as last year proposed a perpetual care agreement that would see annual payments made to them (far in excess of what they are receiving from us now) along with full health care, education (including full post secondary education to anyone that wants it), continuous access to capital for infrastructure and support services etc. The federal government turned them down outright. Do you think that they are trying to steal money and land by not acknowledging our debt?

Edited December 5, 2010 by charter.rights

[Saipan]

Do own research. Get back to us with result.

I did. There's no mention in treaties anything about free post secondary education (even for half indians) no mention of casinos.......... and most of what indians claim today.

And I found (some) treaties are already invalid because of drinking on reserves.

And now do own research. Get back to us with result.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Saipan

[Shwa]

I said nothing of the sort!

What I DID say is that CR's estimate of trillions is such a huge sum that Canada could never possibly pay it!

Did you actually read anything I posted or do I have to keep quoting myself for your benefit? I got other things to do!

How much is Alberta worth do you think? Or Nunavut?

[Shwa]

I did. There's no mention in treaties anything about free post secondary education (even for half indians) no mention of casinos.......... and most of what indians claim today.

And I found (some) treaties are already invalid because of drinking on reserves.

And now do own research. Get back to us with result.

Your research was incomplete, try again.

[Saipan]

Your research was incomplete, try again.

You're free to prove it.

[Shwa]

You're free to prove it.

Considering who I am talking to, I think I just did.

[Saipan]

Considering who I am talking to, I think I just did.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has it.

[Shwa]

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has it.

As long as you are self-aware, you should do fine.

[Saipan]

Well, since I am taking you seriously, are you saying the sum total of lands, assets, property and such in Canada is irrational math?

You have no more lands, assets, property than Neanderthals or Cro-Magnons.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Wars were fought over less.

International court would be good if Canada would comply with its rulings. They won't because they would lose most land claims.

You do also understand that all of Canada is First Nations land? Treaties did not give us the land. All they gave us was a usufruct to certain parts of it, and legally all the land is still theirs. So what would YOU do when the government tells you to get lost in order that all the treaties are dissolved and all the land reverts back to exclusive FN land. Would you comply?

There we go, you think that all the land belongs to the First Nations. That is simply not the case, the crown owns all the land. The First Nations do have specific rights, on land their retain in their control. Yet no treaty gives them any rights off the reserves. There are lands in dispute, has been for years, and case by case they are getting into our own court systems and are slowly being resolved. Yet this process is slow, and its time to speed it up.

First Nations have what they have, that is a legal fact. AS to what they claim, that has yet to be proven in court. We need to give them their freedom. Let them declare they are not Canadian and cut them off, give them their reserves and let them challenge the nation in a court of law.

It is a crime against the rest of the citizens to continue as we do now. No other citizens get from the government what the First Nations folks do. Enough is enough, its time to solve the problem.

[charter.rights]

There we go, you think that all the land belongs to the First Nations. That is simply not the case, the crown owns all the land. The First Nations do have specific rights, on land their retain in their control. Yet no treaty gives them any rights off the reserves. There are lands in dispute, has been for years, and case by case they are getting into our own court systems and are slowly being resolved. Yet this process is slow, and its time to speed it up.

First Nations have what they have, that is a legal fact. AS to what they claim, that has yet to be proven in court. We need to give them their freedom. Let them declare they are not Canadian and cut them off, give them their reserves and let them challenge the nation in a court of law.

It is a crime against the rest of the citizens to continue as we do now. No other citizens get from the government what the First Nations folks do. Enough is enough, its time to solve the problem.

Incorrect. First Nations own superior title. Treaties merely surrendered native usufruct (as it has been defined by the SCoC that Indians hold a personal and usufructary right) and therefore could not surrender the land as fee simple. The ownership and claim by the government is a sham. However treaties did convey a right to use the land, the promises that natives would continue to be allowed to hunt and fish form part of the treaties....according to the SCoC.

The Royal Proclamation 1763 prohibited the surrender of lands by natives to anyone but the Crown. When someone else sought a surrender, or the surrender activities did not meet the specific requirements for surrender (as now defined under Chippewas of Sarnia v. Canada) the land remains under First Nation title:

“That judgement was given at a time when, in constitutional law, the Crown was single and indivisible. In view of it , and in later cases, I think that the Indian title (by which I mean the ‘personal and ususfructary right’ of the Indians in respect of ‘lands reserved to the Indians’) was a title superior to all others save and in so far as the Indians themselves surrendered or ceded it to the Crown. That title was guaranteed to them by the Crown. Then by treaties which covered much of Canada the Indians did cede and surrender their right to some lands to the Crown and in return the Crown undertook to full the obligations set out in the treaties. Those treaty obligations were obligations of the Crown, the single and indivisible Crown which was at that time the Crown of the United Kingdom.

"1982 Lord Denning, British High Court. just months prior to the repatriation of the Constitution.

Take note that the title was "superior" to all others, and the Indians surrendered "their right" to some of the lands but that does not imply that title was rendered to the Crown. In fact many of their rights were still with the land in the form of hunting and fishing rights, and travel over the land freely as guaranteed by the Proclamation 1763.

There is no court that can hear First Nation case. Canadian Courts only rule according to Canadian law and what we are dealing with is international law, and principles. If the government decided to comply with the World Court for a decision, they would lose and we would be exactly where we are today, only 10 years later and approximately $500 billion in interest more in debt.

Where there are lands claims where sovereignty and title are in dispute, the SCoC has recommended that only negotiation can take place. If they had ruled on some very important land claims the government would not win. As WB suggested the payout would be astronomical.So negotiation is the only path to a solution.

Now if the government only complied with its own laws, we might get somewhere. But since they are inherently corrupt these issues will continue for along time to come. You simplistic argument aside, if YOU think it has merit then YOU take a First Nation to court and see where you get. Just be prepared to spend about $1 billion and waiting for 20 years to see if you have a valid idea. Can't do that you say. Then stop wasting everyone's time with silly and childish suggestions.

[charter.rights]

BTW. Are you willing to give up southern Ontario? It has never been surrendered by Six Nations. The Crown has recognized this and giving them their reserves would mean vacating all of Ontario south of the Ottawa River since under the law -the Royal Proclamation 1763 - these are lands reserved for them, superior title and all.

[Smallc]

Except for, you know, the Crown. Don't let that stop you though.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Except for, you know, the Crown. Don't let that stop you though.

He doesn't get it. Likes to take things out of context a lot I see as well.

[g_bambino]

Likes to take things out of context a lot I see as well.

That's all his beliefs are built on.