"War criminals" leak strikes at heart of Israeli society

[bud]

i read an interesting article in regards to the leaking of 200 names of IDF members. paul larudee talks about the significance of the names being released and how it impacts the average israeli. so far, high ranking israeli officials have been able to escape being prosecuted in other countries due to their connections. however, now, the release of the lower ranking IDF soldiers' names, who don't have the privileges of their superiors, has started to create panic in the israeli society.

The publication of the list of 200 changes everything. The list contains the names of a few high-ranking officers, but many of those named are in the lower ranks, all the way down to sergeant. The effect is to make ordinary Israelis concerned that they, too, may be subject to arrest abroad, and without the protection that well-connected higher officials might enjoy. They know what they have done, or been ordered to do, or have ordered others to do, and they suspect that they may be held accountable by foreign laws, over which their government has little control.

Many Israelis already fear that an anti-Semitic world is looking for an excuse to shut down the Zionist experiment. It is therefore not a great leap to believe that they could become pawns -- or scapegoats -- in the rising chorus of voices speaking out for Palestinian rights and against Israeli abuses.

Coupled with this is the Israeli addiction to vacationing abroad, which is a national obsession and almost a right, in the mind of many. The result is that suddenly, with the release of the list of 200, the prospect of being held accountable outside Israel is no longer an abstraction, to be dealt with at the level of diplomats, government policy and the news stories. It hits home.

link

Edited November 23, 2010 by bud

[bud]

the israeli government is trying their best to keep the names from going viral. they have so far been able to shutdown sites and take down the list of names from sites such as facebook. but the names keep popping up in a new place.

[Bonam]

...The effect is to make ordinary Israelis concerned that they, too, may be subject to arrest abroad, and without the protection that well-connected higher officials might enjoy.

...

Many Israelis already fear that an anti-Semitic world is looking for an excuse to shut down the Zionist experiment. It is therefore not a great leap to believe that they could become pawns -- or scapegoats -- in the rising chorus of voices speaking out for Palestinian rights and against Israeli abuses.

So you're gleefully savoring the rising tide of antisemitism and discrimination that Jews and in particular Israelis may face around the world. Good to know where you stand.

[bud]

So you're gleefully savoring the rising tide of antisemitism and discrimination that Jews and in particular Israelis may face around the world. Good to know where you stand.

i haven't said one thing that would insinuate such a thing. people who see things that are not there are known to be mentally unstable.

not only that, but the part of the article you have quoted is giving the perspective of many israelis who live in the world where they see themselves as eternal victims. those are the people who translate any criticism or resistance to the policy of the zionist regime into anti-semitism.

Edited November 23, 2010 by bud

[Bonam]

i haven't said one thing that would insinuate such a thing. people who see things that are not there are known to be mentally unstable

Yes, people who don't agree with your blind condemnation of Israel and its people are obviously "mentally unstable". Pro tip: you said everything that was necessary to "insinuate such a thing".

[Bob]

It's a non-story. Soldiers or ex-soldiers who were involved in Cast Lead will continue to live their lives, travelling or not. There was a few great op-eds responding to this story within the past few week, with several higher-ranking officials coming out in solidarity with their fellow soldiers and stating their names and their role.

The only crimes committed in Cast Lead were Israel not defending its people strongly enough. Way too many ROE restrictions that needlessly put our brave soldiers in increased danger, all for the benefit of the enemy. That's the real war crime.

[M.Dancer]

The list is bogus.

What is so special about the list? As several critics have pointed out, it doesn't even state the crimes that the listed individuals are alleged to have committed.

The root of the problem, according to the sources in Israel, is a poorly kept secret -- namely, that it is hard to serve in the Israeli military without committing war crimes, because such crimes are a matter of policy

Basically the charge is, if you were involved in Cast Lead, you are a war criminal.

This thread is just an attempt at a viral smear.

[bud]

The list is bogus.

Basically the charge is, if you were involved in Cast Lead, you are a war criminal.

This thread is just an attempt at a viral smear.

several high ranking israeli officials have had to turn away from entering different countries because of arrest warrants due to their involvement in cast lead. so yeah, if you were involved with cast lead, you are a war criminal. very good.

nazi soldiers are still being hunted to this day because they were involved with the nazi war crimes.

you know richard goldstone? of course you do. he helped hunt down hundreds of former nazi soldiers who escaped to argentina. it's nice to see that he's not blinded by nationalism and is not selective when it comes to justice and identifying war crimes.

[bud]

Yes, people who don't agree with your blind condemnation of Israel and its people are obviously "mentally unstable". Pro tip: you said everything that was necessary to "insinuate such a thing".

i'm not surprised that you're also stuck in this eternal victim mode where any criticism of israel automatically becomes anti-semitism. it's a sickness.

your sickness can only be cured once you're able to accept that you or anyone else in your tribe don't need to be treated any different than any other person and that everyone deserves equal justice.

[M.Dancer]

you know richard goldstone? of course you do. he helped hunt down hundreds of former nazi soldiers who escaped to argentina. it's nice to see that he's not blinded by nationalism and is not selective when it comes to justice and identifying war crimes.

The Goldstone thingy, something he said was not up to legal standards has nothing to do with a list of random israeli names.

[bud]

The Goldstone thingy, something he said was not up to legal standards has nothing to do with a list of random israeli names.

israeli officials are still scared to travel to some european countries because they might get arrested and prosecuted.

[M.Dancer]

israeli officials are still scared to travel to some european countries because they might get arrested and prosecuted.

....and so? Jews are afraid to travel to Afghansistan...

[bud]

....and so? Jews are afraid to travel to Afghansistan...

?

this could lead to the idf soldiers facing arrests and prosecution when/if they visit certain countries. unfortunately for them, they will not have the luxury of connections that their superiors have had when they were faced with such arrests while visiting some european countries.

here is more from the article:

The debate is already taking place around the question, “Can I be held responsible?”

The answer to that question could potentially determine whether it will be possible to mount a massive offensive against a population that has no effective military forces, as in Gaza, or where saturation bombing, cluster munitions and depleted uranium might be used, as in Lebanon. This is potentially a daunting prospect for Israeli military commanders, and some sources in Israel believe that the publication of the 200 has already had that effect.

More likely, however, it is premature to make such a call. It seems unlikely that Israel will succeed in putting the genie back in the bottle with regard to the list of 200. It is already leaping from one place to another in cyberspace, via website and email (although Israel seems to have been temporarily successful in banning it from Facebook). However, will it generate further research and release of information on the potential offences committed by the named individuals, and will it lead to further publication of such lists?

[Bonam]

?

this could lead to the idf soldiers facing arrests and prosecution when/if they visit certain countries.

Israelis, soldiers or otherwise, already face restrictions from visiting certain countries and face threat of violence in others.

[Bonam]

unfortunately for them, they will not have the luxury of connections that their superiors have had when they were faced with such arrests while visiting some european countries.

European countries that have fallen so low as to arrest Israeli soldiers for defending their nation are in a lot worse trouble than Israel, and their people deserve only our pity.

[M.Dancer]

?

this could lead to the idf soldiers facing arrests and prosecution when/if they visit certain countries. unfortunately for them, they will not have the luxury of connections that their superiors have had when they were faced with such arrests while visiting some european countries.

And so? It's not like these charges are credible...in fact, they are quite embarrassing for the nations where the charges have been filed. In Europe for instance, it isn't the governments filing thses charges but activists bent on perverting the legal system in order to persecute israel.

Israel is postponing "strategic dialogue" with Britain over defence and security issues, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman has said.

The move is a protest over attempts to use British law to prosecute visiting Israeli officials, the spokesman added.

The news comes on the first day of an official visit to Israel by the UK's Foreign Secretary William Hague.

The Foreign Office said the British government was moving to curb the use of "mischievous" arrest warrants.

Mr Hague will also be visiting the occupied territories during his visit.

An arrest warrant was issued through UK courts for Israeli former Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni in December last year. The warrant was granted by a London court at the request of Palestinian plaintiffs, provoking Israeli anger

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11681989

[bud]

European countries that have fallen so low as to arrest Israeli soldiers for defending their nation are in a lot worse trouble than Israel, and their people deserve only our pity.

it has already been concluded by several human rights organizations and experts (like richard goldstone who hunted nazis in argentina) that israel went beyond defending itself and committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.

[bud]

the link to the list is at the bottom of this page:

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/11/17/idf-cast-lead-dirty-200/

[M.Dancer]

it has already been concluded by several human rights organizations and experts (like richard goldstone who hunted nazis in argentina) that israel went beyond defending itself and committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.

He did not "hunt" nazis in argentina and his fact finding mission (which he admits is flawed and would not stand in any court) only proved that mediocrity can set in at any age.

[M.Dancer]

the link to the list is at the bottom of this page:

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/11/17/idf-cast-lead-dirty-200/

If my name was on that list I would sue everyone who posted it for libel.

[bud]

And so? It's not like these charges are credible...in fact, they are quite embarrassing for the nations where the charges have been filed. In Europe for instance, it isn't the governments filing thses charges but activists bent on perverting the legal system in order to persecute israel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11681989

you say the charges are not credible. your problem is that you are the one who has no credibility.

any honest and realistic person would admit that there is no plot between human rights organization and an internationally respected expert on international law (who happens to be jewish and who was part of a commission to capture nazis) to fake their conclusion about the legality of israel's actions during the attack on gaza.

Edited November 24, 2010 by bud

[bud]

He did not "hunt" nazis in argentina

He was a member of the International Panel of the Commission of Enquiry into the Activities of Nazism in Argentina (CEANA) which was established in 1997 to identify Nazi war criminals who had emigrated to Argentina, and transferred victim assets (Nazi gold) there wiki

[M.Dancer]

He was a member of the International Panel of the Commission of Enquiry into the Activities of Nazism in Argentina (CEANA) which was established in 1997 to identify Nazi war criminals who had emigrated to Argentina, and transferred victim assets (Nazi gold) there wiki

Yes I am not saying he wasn't a member of the panel. I am saying he did not "hunt nazis". He, as his experiance in Gaza shows, is not an investigator. He is a lawyer. He is good at sorting documents.

And like the GAZA fact finding thingy, CEANA is believed to have done a piss poor job.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1998/nov/18/ukigoni

Edited November 24, 2010 by M.Dancer

[bud]

Yes I am not saying he wasn't a member of the panel. I am saying he did not "hunt nazis". He, as his experiance in Gaza shows, is not an investigator. He is a lawyer. He is good at sorting documents.

And like the GAZA fact finding thingy, CEANA is believed to have done a piss poor job.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1998/nov/18/ukigoni

you're taking a comment made by one person, before the first report was even released as "CEANA is believed to have done a piss poor job".

richard goldstone has participated in some of the biggest international investigations and and prosecutions in the past 3 decades, yet you're still trying discredit him and his ability to handle the job. you are simply pathetic.

you and your approach to debating are an embarrassment.

[dre]

European countries that have fallen so low as to arrest Israeli soldiers for defending their nation are in a lot worse trouble than Israel, and their people deserve only our pity.

Theres nothing necessarily "low" about arresting war criminals.

defending their nation

First of all, that characterization is debatable in some circumstances. But even if it were accurate you can still commit war crimes in "defense of your nation". That just seems like sloganeering on your part. Israel has signed various treaties and by doing so has assumed legal responsibilities. They should be held to account if they fail to deliver, just like anyone else should.

Edited November 24, 2010 by dre