Natives have right too says Canada

[Saipan]

Goes to prove that the education by the government sponsored kiddie-diddling priests really doesn't work. They are to blame for the state of reserves today.

Who is running them TODAY? The "Elders", and they are calling police to help them because "Elders" run their system into the ground.

Like the Caribbean criminal gangs in Toronto blaming their crime on "slavery"

[Shwa]

I stand corrected! And I am impressed! Forgive me for my false assumption but after been instructed so many times the past few years by posters like CR who tell me that the native "Cosmic All with Nature" approach to education and life is superior to the white man's education surely you can understand why I was so mistaken! I'm sure I recall him lecturing us about traditional medicine a time or two, or it could have been one of his precessors. It wasn't that long ago he told us that logic was merely a delusion. No one gets through engineering school with that sort of a belief.

So are you saying that Chinese students who drink green tea for medicinal benefits can't be engineers and neither can Catholics?

So I retract what I said and what's more, heartily approve! Hopefully, CR will show up and agree with the two of us! Perhaps one of those firms will be kind enough to give him a job and teach him something practical. As a techie myself I admit I have my biases.

How do you know he isn't an engineer already?

Meanwhile, I have to ask if these firms are staffed by people EDUCATED in their trade on reserves? IOW, are there schools on reserves that teach such engineering or do students have to study off-reserve for this education?

You are unfamiliar with off-reserve native populations too aren't you?

Lastly, how does Six Nations stack up on your list of such links? As a reserve, are they as progressive as the others that you cited? If so, I owe them an apology as well.

I think you are 'techie' enough to do your own Google searches now.

[Saipan]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

YOU have no idea what I'm talking about.

This is one of the most racist comments I have ever read on this forum.

That shyte doesn't work with me. I always call it as I see it. Most racist comments come from indians.

[CANADIEN]

Perhaps it was, but there is a grain of truth buried beneath the insult, Melanie.

How many computer lathe operators, software engineers, engineers of ANY kind!, or similarly highly educated professionals are graduating from schools on native reserves?

How many aboriginal engineers were involved in the Apollo program? When's the last time an aboriginal university discovered a better way for gene splicing?

The resrouces given elementary schools on the reserve would make school children in some African countries feel priviledged in comparison. They are under funded, and most importantly, under managed. In essence, they are operated the way single-school rural school boards were in the rest of the country before the 1960`s.

Not surprisingly, there is a lack of administrative, curriculum and teaching resources. This is one of the main reasons most students in these schools won't even complete high schools.

We are not talking about forming engineers, astronauts, doctors, but about the basics - elementary and early secondary education. The issue is not traditional ways vs university education. It's an education system that fits the needs of its population instead of the ill-managed under-funded one that we have now and that puts this country to shame.

Edited November 19, 2010 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

That shyte doesn't work with me.

The shyte is what you are posting.

There is no doubt that tremendous, horrific problems face First Nations, off and on reserve. There is also no doubt that the solution to these problems will not come from blaming and blaming and blaming.

Most importantly, the best solutions are likely to come from the First Nations themselves. Because if they wait for the likes of you, all they will get is the same type of racist garbage we get from CharterRight every third posting. Neither him our you want real solutions, so why don't you both step out of the way.

[Wild Bill]

How do you know he isn't an engineer already?

It would be impossible to become an engineer and believe that "logic is a mere delusion". Engineering does NOT work by some sort of shamanistic, magical view of the Universe.

More likely he's some sort of ultraleftwing lawyer. That's an incompatible skill set with engineering.

You can't fix a computer motherboard by waving a rattle at it made out of a turtle shell.

I formed this opinion from things he specifically told us. I'm simply taking him at his word.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Wild Bill

[AngusThermopyle]

How do you know he isn't an engineer already?

Actually I can answer that one. Charter has told us many times that he is a "consultant". Further to that I myself worked in the engineering field for nine years and based upon that experience can tell from Charters posts that he does not have the skills necessary to be an engineer. After all it was Charter who once argued that over 50% can fit into half as I'm sure some here will recall. If one does not even have a grasp of the most basic mathematical skills then one cannot function as an Engineer.

As an aside, in another thread you asked me what the names of the two reserves bordering Fort Macleod were. Off the top of my head I can't remember, I think one was the Blood reserve but wouldn't swear to it. If I get time I'll call a friend out there this weekend and ask him for you. I do recall being told that one of them was the reserve where Crazy Horse went at the end of his life as it straddles the Canadian/US border. If I recall correctly he actually died in Canada.

Fort Macleod is also the location of Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump and the birth place of the RCMP. A very historic locale.

[charter.rights]

Alas all thing Wiki-experts, who spend their time speculating have failed again.

I guess I am to admit that 5wl^4/384EI is really just gibberish to me? Jeez....and here I always thought that it meant Wild Bill was bent way out of shape....

Bill has trouble taking things in and holding a though longer than a second or too. He is so filled with delusions of what he thinks is going on that he often misses the real point. Thus his logic is also his delusion. So for clarification, others may recall that I said:

"Logic is a delusion."

I also said "it has its place at times".

Engineering is not logical. In fact it requires quite an abstract and fantastical point of view - especially in the application of organic architecture (or what many of us call "blobatecture").

But this too is nothing more than WB's wild distractions and since he in incapable of following the thread subject, he instead falls into drift where he is an expert.

[charter.rights]

Who is running them TODAY?

Lest you REALLY look stupid I cut off your suppositions so that I could answer your questions without you having to defend your racist opinions....

Who is running them TODAY?

The Reserves are run by federally approved Band Councils,that are elected in many cases with less than 10% of the eligible voters, and are controlled through Indian Affairs directed funding that can only be spent where they say it can. They use a council model, and an administrative model that we have imposed on them.

So the answer to your retarded tirade, is that WE are responsible for the state of the reserves today. It is our interference in their governance and underfunding that causes poor education, substandard health care and lack of addiction counseling. So stand up and be a man, and accept that your racist thinking solves nothing, and actually makes things worse.

[AngusThermopyle]

Engineering is not logical. In fact it requires quite an abstract and fantastical point of view

Spoken as someone who truly does not have a clue what they are talking about. Engineering is totally based upon logic, cause and effect and intractible laws and rules. Perhaps you are confusing concept and design with engineering? The designers come up with fantastical concepts and then pass them to the Engineers who have to figure out how to make them work within the confines of well defined rules and capabilities. Materials also play a paramount role within this process. You really do have a knack for saying the most absurd things with the utmost confidence don't you.

Now, back to my question, were those comments rascist or not?

[Shwa]

It would be impossible to become an engineer and believe that "logic is a mere delusion".

Why do you assume that the thought: "logic is a mere delusion" came before he achieved his engineer credentials? You are being illogical.

Engineering does NOT work by some sort of shamanistic, magical view of the Universe.

And yet the Egyptians built the pyramids thousands of years ago and they still stand. Your assumption that the beliefs of any given engineer must be holistically tuned towards math - and only math - is not only wrong, but illogical.

More likely he's some sort of ultraleftwing lawyer. That's an incompatible skill set with engineering.

I know a Queens engineer who also obtained his medical doctor degree at RMC. You saying that a ultraleftwing lawyer cannot also be an engineer is, well, illogical.

You can't fix a computer motherboard by waving a rattle at it made out of a turtle shell.

Are you sure? Waving a turtle rattle might be a ritual to prepare one's mind to tackle complex problems. Other notable engineers have undergone similar rituals; Sir Isaac Newton for instance, went to Church and believed in God. And let's not forget those ancient Egyptians...

I formed this opinion from things he specifically told us. I'm simply taking him at his word.

You did? From all of the above, it seems to me that you developed your opinion based upon your understanding of "his word." And some of these understandings appear quite specious to me.

So tell me then, how can a person - who makes such obvious mistakes in basic logic - possibly have the skillset to fix a motherboard? Or do you sometimes act on guesses or hunches too?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Shwa

[Wild Bill]

Why do you assume that the thought: "logic is a mere delusion" came before he achieved his engineer credentials? You are being illogical.

Oh dear! Now I feel quite guilty! Of course that's what must have happened! He was a logical human being and then suffered some sort of traumatic brain injury to the side of his brain responsible for logic and cause and effect.

I feel sorry that he suffered so and apologize for picking on a clear handicap.

[Shwa]

Oh dear! Now I feel quite guilty! Of course that's what must have happened! He was a logical human being and then suffered some sort of traumatic brain injury to the side of his brain responsible for logic and cause and effect.

I feel sorry that he suffered so and apologize for picking on a clear handicap.

What you should feel sorry for is the complete arse you made of yourself by posting spurious personal opinions of someone based upon your own faulty reasoning. But seeing how messed up your logic fuctioning is, a messed up sense of self-righteousness is not unexpected now is it?

[Wild Bill]

What you should feel sorry for is the complete arse you made of yourself by posting spurious personal opinions of someone based upon your own faulty reasoning. But seeing how messed up your logic fuctioning is, a messed up sense of self-righteousness is not unexpected now is it?

Touchy! The concept of "sauce for the goose..." obviously offends you. I firmly believe that "we should do unto others as they have done unto you". It's the only way to teach some people manners.

Still, it's interesting how you are so fervent to defend someone ELSE!

One might almost suspect that someone is using two personas on the same board...

[AngusThermopyle]

In fact Shwa, Bill is correct in that engineering cannot function or work unless based upon very inflexible rules. The laws of Physics and Mathematics (to a lesser but still esential degree Chemistry and Thermodynamics)are not subject to change based upon bias or wishfull thinking. Engineering is based upon the application of these laws given various designs and materials availlable. That is to say you can not build a bridge out of paper no matter how much you may wish to do so. Nor can you use wet noodles to manutacture a drive shaft.

In our daily lives we can not just adjust these laws to suit our taste. Even the Ancient Egyptians were forced to work within the confines of these laws. They did not build gravity defying structures for instance. Nor did they build load bearing structures that defied the basic Mathematical rules.

[charter.rights]

Engineering is not logical. In fact it requires quite an abstract and fantastical point of view

Spoken as someone who truly does not have a clue what they are talking about. Engineering is totally based upon logic, cause and effect and intractible laws and rules.

Only to someone who has experience with box engineering. In reality engineering is abstract and illogical...given that '0' is not a real number, and unreal things do not existing in the natural world.

"The roof is a complex catenary post-tensioned reinforced concrete shell, constructed with cables and mesh used as the integral form as well as the reinforcing. It is amorphous in composition, serving as a canopy over the people"

Douglas Cardinal is Cree. The roof of the St. Mary's Church above, was a conundrum to the engineers. Its concave, and oblique shape defied conventional thinking and was solved, not by calculation and classical engineering methodologies. Rather Cardinal went away for a week to the bush and he built a sweat lodge, and he sweated and fasted for 4 days. The solution came as a result of nature - of observation, not engineering analysis. A spider web.

The engineering design of the reinforcing and concrete bending stresses didn't come from mathematical calculation. It came from modeling and then testing the model against scalable forces. The result was something that is holding up the roof of St. Mary's that the engineers said couldn't be done.

Not all engineering is through mathematical deduction. Modeling is an acceptable form of analysis in engineer, albeit an expensive and lengthy process. But we must not forget that engineering is at its root an abstract explanation of natural world concepts. And BTW, since you are completely baffled by the formula that I presented in the previous post it appears you don't have the capacity to judge who I am or what I do for a living. I said I was a consultant....now think about the many ways that can have a real life application....

Perhaps you are confusing concept and design with engineering? The designers come up with fantastical concepts and then pass them to the Engineers who have to figure out how to make them work within the confines of well defined rules and capabilities. Materials also play a paramount role within this process. You really do have a knack for saying the most absurd things with the utmost confidence don't you.

Now, back to my question, were those comments rascist or not?

I answered your question in the other thread.

It the statement was:

"Go back to where you came from you limey"

Then no it is not racist. Limey is not a race. It is a pejorative.

Edited November 19, 2010 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

DP

Edited November 19, 2010 by charter.rights

[Shwa]

One might almost suspect that someone is using two personas on the same board...

I would expect someone with your capacity for logic to come to this conclusion.

[charter.rights]

In fact Shwa, Bill is correct in that engineering cannot function or work unless based upon very inflexible rules. The laws of Physics and Mathematics (to a lesser but still esential degree Chemistry and Thermodynamics)are not subject to change based upon bias or wishfull thinking. Engineering is based upon the application of these laws given various designs and materials availlable. That is to say you can not build a bridge out of paper no matter how much you may wish to do so. Nor can you use wet noodles to manutacture a drive shaft.

In our daily lives we can not just adjust these laws to suit our taste. Even the Ancient Egyptians were forced to work within the confines of these laws. They did not build gravity defying structures for instance. Nor did they build load bearing structures that defied the basic Mathematical rules.

You might want to rethink that position.

Scientists Look to Put Their Bacteria in Concrete's Dirty Cracks

They are working on making concrete out of bacteria. Funny how that both defies your limited logic and sophomoric position.

[AngusThermopyle]

A spider web.

And if you actually knew what you were talking about instead of googling furiously in an attempt to bolster your ridiculous claims you would know that a spider web can be explained in purely mathematical terms. You would also realise that modelling does not only refer to physical modeling but also mathematical modeling. Feel free to continue being disingenuous though. Keep digging that hole deeper.

[AngusThermopyle]

They are working on making concrete out of bacteria. Funny how that both defies your limited logic and sophomoric position.

And in what way does this defy the physical laws? The bacteria are merely another material to be utilised. I'm afraid your oh so clever points are no point at all. Keep googling.

[charter.rights]

And in what way does this defy the physical laws? The bacteria are merely another material to be utilised. I'm afraid your oh so clever points are no point at all. Keep googling.

No they are not. They are a living entity that is turning into silca carbonate, a glue or a strand depending on how they are stressed in reaction to their natural environment.

[Shwa]

In fact Shwa, Bill is correct in that engineering cannot function or work unless based upon very inflexible rules. The laws of Physics and Mathematics (to a lesser but still esential degree Chemistry and Thermodynamics)are not subject to change based upon bias or wishfull thinking. Engineering is based upon the application of these laws given various designs and materials availlable. That is to say you can not build a bridge out of paper no matter how much you may wish to do so. Nor can you use wet noodles to manutacture a drive shaft.

My kid is a Queens physics engineering grad Angus, I am well aware of the basic principles of engineering. But engineers cannot live on math alone and that is what Bill is completely off the mark about. He is also wildly off the mark about engineers not being able to have skillsets in other areas of life. My kid, above, minored in computer science and is well on his way in classical philosophy. His wife is a Queens civil engineer grad who teaches ESL and counsels the abused in women's shelters. Now, if you were to question their credentials they would jam an iron ring in your face.

Do you know why they give out iron rings for engineers at a special University ritual? If you do, please explain it to me in mathematical notation.

In our daily lives we can not just adjust these laws to suit our taste. Even the Ancient Egyptians were forced to work within the confines of these laws. They did not build gravity defying structures for instance. Nor did they build load bearing structures that defied the basic Mathematical rules.

Nor did they give up their belief in Ra or the pharoah as being "divine."

[charter.rights]

What you should feel sorry for is the complete arse you made of yourself by posting spurious personal opinions of someone based upon your own faulty reasoning. But seeing how messed up your logic fuctioning is, a messed up sense of self-righteousness is not unexpected now is it?

As I said, Wild Bill amply demonstrates not only that logic is a delusion, but that the extent of delusion can be so warped by poor intelligence that it is not discernible from mental illness.

Now back to the subject matter.

A number of lawyers I know have been washing over the declaration and have been "logically" trying to understand its implications. While I wouldn't go so far as some of them, it appears that the Declaration may push the government into a Constitutional amendment that will strengthen and not weaken aboriginal people rights along the lines of ownership / stewardship / governance over lands and resources outside of the Constitutional Orders that some claim ownership over aboriginal people. The result would be that aboriginal people would have absolute control over resources, and over lands not ceded to the Crown in formal verifiable (non-coerced) treaties. Those that do not meet the test would then be ruled unconstitutional and would be reverted to the pre-contact ownership / control of aboriginal people and we would have to enter into a whole new round of negotiations to continue to allow settlement. Mind you, this is educated speculation.

It is however, highly likely that the next few years will determine whether or not the Supreme Court feels bound to comply with the Declaration, given the fact that they have already ruled that the interpretation of treaties and history must always be in favour of the way the Indians would have understood it at the time the agreements were made. If they do set the path in this direction then what we have experienced in the last 20 years - the protests, the occupations and escalating violence - could easily be accelerated and compressed into the next 5 to 10 years, given that the government and corporations have been reluctant to compley with the letter of the law, as it stands today. Thus we can expect more delays, and more shut down of major roads and bridges as experienced in the past.

The problem is that there are many people (like the ill-informed here) that cry that native people are racists looking for special treatment, when the reality is that these are international agreements just like the Jay Treaty, that we can no more ignore than we can change to suit our own privilege. And if that means that the treaties promoted the recognition of aboriginal rights over ours, then so be it

. We always have the option of renegotiating the terms of treaties, however we cannot just ignore them without consequences to our own livelihood and enjoyment of property.

On another note I read today the the Province of Ontario have strengthen the requirements around archaeological surveys being prepared before development takes place. This will not only mean delays in development but increases in the costs of developments being passed on to consumers.

New rules will help preserve archeological sites

Edited November 19, 2010 by charter.rights

[Shady]

Mind you, this is educated speculation.

More like uneducated hyperbole.