Harper blames Israeli stance for UN snub

[Bob]

Are you claiming gays weren't put in concentration camps? Because that's completely false. They went through the same thing in lesser numbers.

link

link 2 (more on Nazi persecution of homosexuals)

I'm quite certain you're in no position to be teaching jbg about Holocaust facts. He's quite aware that many homosexuals were also sent to labour and death camps. The difference, however, is the degree of persecution and the almost singular focus of Nazi Germany and its collaborators towards the extermination of my people. I know I shouldn't expect this to be common knowledge, as I think non-Jews are, generally speaking, much more detached from the history of the Holocaust than Jewish people. The propaganda and focus and plans for extermination, however, were intensely focused on my people. I am not saying this to marginalize the suffering of many millions of other non-Jews in the events of the Holocaust and WWII, but what you seem to be trying to do is to marginalize the special attention put towards the eradication of the Jewish people. Moreover, there is a much deeper connection between the Jewish people than between homosexuals. Homosexuals have one thing in common: their homosexuality. The connection between the Jewish people is quite a bit deeper than that. Shouldn't this be obvious?

[jbg]

Harper has said that Jews are the only people who are under threat.

For whatever reason, if one looks through history, Jews have had the roughest time of any surviving minority group. And this goes back through recorded history, back to, but not limited to, the Bible.

As Harper was implicitly pointing out Jews were the object of persecution even during the Moorish "Golden Era" of Spain, and certainly during the bloody Christian era that followed. Their exit from Spain and Portugal didn't solve the problem as the Jews suffered multiple expulsions from (and readmittances to) England, and well-known bloodbaths in the Russian Empire. France was, to some extent, an equal opportunity persecutor, as the Hugenots were first tolerated under the Edict of Nantes, and then discriminated against and sometimes slaughtered after its revocation. Then,of course, there was the Shoah, or Holocaust.

One wonders often how things in history would have differed if different choices had been made. It is well known that the Americas quickly surpassed Europe in prosperity during the 1600's and early 1700's. Perhaps if Europe had spent less time in persecutions and slaughters of religious minorities it would have gotten to work and prospered mightily.

And perhaps the re-creation of the State of Israel would not have been needed. But it was, and is.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I'm quite certain you're in no position to be teaching jbg about Holocaust facts. He's quite aware that many homosexuals were also sent to labour and death camps. The difference, however, is the degree of persecution and the almost singular focus of Nazi Germany and its collaborators towards the extermination of my people. I know I shouldn't expect this to be common knowledge, as I think non-Jews are, generally speaking, much more detached from the history of the Holocaust than Jewish people. The propaganda and focus and plans for extermination, however, were intensely focused on my people. I am not saying this to marginalize the suffering of many millions of other non-Jews in the events of the Holocaust and WWII, but what you seem to be trying to do is to marginalize the special attention put towards the eradication of the Jewish people. Moreover, there is a much deeper connection between the Jewish people than between homosexuals. Homosexuals have one thing in common: their homosexuality. The connection between the Jewish people is quite a bit deeper than that. Shouldn't this be obvious?

Ignoring for a moment that is not possible to quantify focus there was plenty of propaganda and plans for extermination leveled against other groups in Nazi Germany. I'm not marginalizing Jews I pointing out the other groups gays, blacks, gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped people. The only difference between Jews and these other groups is there were more Jews.

[jbg]

Come on Argus. Don't you know those freedom fighting child loving suicide murderers use the special non child killing bomb vests?

Sure. The same way Isaac was slaughtered by his father but the surrounding peoples' children were not sacrificed.

[jbg]

Clearly this is yet another attempt to marginalize the history of my people, as well as to denigrate and to demonize Israel. From the obscure references to the "Jewish lobby" in Canada and their (our?) imagined power and influence (we're the most powerful lobby group in Canada!), to the making light of the threats against the Jewish people and our homeland, to actually questioning the guilt of Samir Kuntar. It's just ignorant statements followed by deceitful statements, all with a clear intention.

As a side note, can I just say that I am really surprised as well as thankful for the seemingly large volume of Canadians in here who are clearly on the right side of the issues regarding the Israeli-Arab conflict.

Thanks for the praise. I want to make two things clear: 1) I am Jewish; and 2) I am not Canadian. I am a left-wing attorney in the New York area, in the grand tradition of William Kunstler and Ron Kuby, and non-lawyer Noam Chomsky. Edited November 14, 2010 by jbg

[Bob]

Ignoring for a moment that is not possible to quantify focus there was plenty of propaganda and plans for extermination leveled against other groups in Nazi Germany. I'm not marginalizing Jews I pointing out the other groups gays, blacks, gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped people. The only difference between Jews and these other groups is there were more Jews.

No, the difference is the degree to which demonization and persecution took place. The Nuremberg laws, as one of the most well-known examples, specifically targeted Jews. Jews alone were forced to wear identification stars on their arms in public. The targeting of Jews was particularly more widespread and vicious than the targeting of any other group. You are marginalizing the specific focus of the Holocaust towards my people by overstating the parallels in persecution with other groups such as gays and disabled people.

Again, homosexuals and disabled people are unified in one dimension. The Jewish people, on the other hand, are connected by far more than simply genetic inheritance. We share a history, a way of life, a language, a faith, a culture (music, food, art, dance, etc). Homosexuals and disabled people are not a nation, they are groups of people with a common denominator. I will not continue this discussion as it's quite obvious what road you are trying to take this thread towards. I am more than confident that you are in no position to educate me about the Holocaust, and I'll leave it at that.

[Bob]

Thanks for the praise. I want to make two things clear: 1) Am am Jewish; and 2) I am not Canadian. I am a left-wing attorney in the New York area, in the grand tradition of William Kunstler and Ron Kuby, and non-lawyer Noam Chomsky.

No problem, it's always nice to see people taking the moral positions, even if they are unpopular in the sea of ignorance. Somewhere I did read that you are Jewish (one of your posts, perhaps?) as well as the fact that your a middle-aged lawyer. By virtue of that, I assumed that you naturally are more familiar with the Holocaust than the Johnnie-come-latelys whose knowledge of the Holocaust is exclusively rooted in Wikipedia.

[jbg]

No problem, it's always nice to see people taking the moral positions, even if they are unpopular in the sea of ignorance. Somewhere I did read that you are Jewish (one of your posts, perhaps?) as well as the fact that your a middle-aged lawyer. By virtue of that, I assumed that you naturally are more familiar with the Holocaust than the Johnnie-come-latelys whose knowledge of the Holocaust is exclusively rooted in Wikipedia.

After seeing a show called "Wallenberg" on Thursday night in White Plains (quite a powerful show) I stayed for the "talk-back". I asked how we should be imparting to our children the uniqueness of the Holocaust and the targeting of Jews.

Yesterday morning at Torah study I came up with the phrase "Holocaust fatigue". It is simple; our children are being educated to be equally concerned with Dharfur, Pol Pots' atrocities, the treatment of the First Nations and other travails in history, on a level equal to the Holocaust. If everything's equally bad nothing is particularly bad.

This is a spurious and dubious equality.

[Guest TrueMetis]

No, the difference is the degree to which demonization and persecution took place. The Nuremberg laws, as one of the most well-known examples, specifically targeted Jews. Jews alone were forced to wear identification stars on their arms in public. The targeting of Jews was particularly more widespread and vicious than the targeting of any other group. You are marginalizing the specific focus of the Holocaust towards my people by overstating the parallels in persecution with other groups such as gays and disabled people.

Do you need to go back to school. Many other groups had to wear identification patches as well.

link

link

Again, homosexuals and disabled people are unified in one dimension. The Jewish people, on the other hand, are connected by far more than simply genetic inheritance. We share a history, a way of life, a language, a faith, a culture (music, food, art, dance, etc). Homosexuals and disabled people are not a nation, they are groups of people with a common denominator. I will not continue this discussion as it's quite obvious what road you are trying to take this thread towards. I am more than confident that you are in no position to educate me about the Holocaust, and I'll leave it at that.

You know who do have all that? The Romani but lets just ignore them because they don't fit your viewpoint. You know what screw it I'm not doing this again have your little victim complex.

Edited November 14, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Bob]

Do you need to go back to school. Many other groups had to wear identification patches as well.

link

link

You know who do have all that? The Romani but lets just ignore them because they don't fit your viewpoint. You know what screw it I'm not doing this again have your little victim complex.

The badges you're listing of were worn in concentration camps. Jews, on the other hand, had to wear such badges in occupied countries outside of concentration camps. That's what I was talking about. Do you really think someone like yourself is in a position to educate me about the Holocaust? Get real. I grew up with this and have a deeply personal stake in it. You, on the other hand, run to Wikipedia to look for debate ammo to waste time on something that's trivial to you.

You're just trying to marginalize the unique Jewish component of the Holocaust, it's so transparent and pathetic.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

After seeing a show called "Wallenberg" on Thursday night in White Plains (quite a powerful show) I stayed for the "talk-back". I asked how we should be imparting to our children the uniqueness of the Holocaust and the targeting of Jews.

Yesterday morning at Torah study I came up with the phrase "Holocaust fatigue". It is simple; our children are being educated to be equally concerned with Dharfur, Pol Pots' atrocities, the treatment of the First Nations and other travails in history, on a level equal to the Holocaust. If everything's equally bad nothing is particularly bad.

This is a spurious and dubious equality.

Although this is ethnocentric, Jewish children should focus on our own history. Of course, the more knowledge the better, but if time, resources, and attention are limited resources (and they are), the educational focus from Jewish children should be their own history. Do you really think the history of early French and English pioneers in Canada is going to resonate with Jewish Canadian children whose parents emigrated from Europe in the 1970s or 1980s? It's not their history, but the history of the country in which they now live.

[jbg]

Do you really think the history of early French and English pioneers in Canada is going to resonate with Jewish Canadian children whose parents emigrated from Europe in the 1970s or 1980s? It's not their history, but the history of the country in which they now live.

My view is that the "two histories" that matter for Jewish Canadian children whose parents emigrated from Europe in the 1970s or 1980s is:

1. Jewish history; and
   
2. the history of early French and English pioneers in Canada
   

I personally insist that my children learn, of course, American history as well as Jewish history.

[Guest TrueMetis]

The badges you're listing of were worn in concentration camps. Jews, on the other hand, had to wear such badges in occupied countries outside of concentration camps. That's what I was talking about. Do you really think someone like yourself is in a position to educate me about the Holocaust? Get real. I grew up with this and have a deeply personal stake in it. You, on the other hand, run to Wikipedia to look for debate ammo to waste time on something that's trivial to you.

You're just trying to marginalize the unique Jewish component of the Holocaust, it's so transparent and pathetic.

Holy crap they had to wear a piece of cloth. You could at least go with something really substantive like the attacks that were committed on them.

This isn't a trivial matter none of it is. You just don't want to acknowledge that other groups where prosecuted just as much, if you think that lessens what the Jewish people had went through you've got issues. So far the only "unique" thing you've proven about the Jews was before they went to the concentration camps they had to wear an extra piece of cloth.

[jbg]

Holy crap they had to wear a piece of cloth. You could at least go with something really substantive like the attacks that were committed on them.

The "cloth" was worn for the purpose of allowing others to kick them and spit at them with impunity. The police were not about to protect a person wearing a "piece of cloth" that was a yellow star.

[Guest TrueMetis]

The "cloth" was worn for the purpose of allowing others to kick them and spit at them with impunity. The police were not about to protect a person wearing a "piece of cloth" that was a yellow star.

Sounds a lot like what the Romani went through.

[Bob]

Holy crap they had to wear a piece of cloth. You could at least go with something really substantive like the attacks that were committed on them.

This isn't a trivial matter none of it is. You just don't want to acknowledge that other groups where prosecuted just as much, if you think that lessens what the Jewish people had went through you've got issues. So far the only "unique" thing you've proven about the Jews was before they went to the concentration camps they had to wear an extra piece of cloth.

What I'm rejecting is your continued assertion that the persecution of Jewish people in the Holocaust was not at a significantly higher, more intense, more vicious, and more intricate level than the persecution of other groups. I am well aware and personally connected to the suffering of non-Jews (both those who were specifically targeted and those who weren't) via both non-Jewish family and friends and their stories. Still, it is not the same as the intensity of the persecution against Jews.

I don't need to prove anything. I know what I know, and it is irrelevant to me what someone thinks who has absolutely no connection to the Holocaust or the events of WWII, and whose knowledge of the Holocaust begins and ends with excerpts from Wikipedia.

[Bob]

Sounds a lot like what the Romani went through.

It was not the same intensity, though. You need to let go of your illusions of equal targeting and persecution of Jews and other groups during the Holocaust. It was not the same.

[Guest TrueMetis]

What I'm rejecting is your continued assertion that the persecution of Jewish people in the Holocaust was not at a significantly higher, more intense, more vicious, and more intricate level than the persecution of other groups. I am well aware and personally connected to the suffering of non-Jews (both those who were specifically targeted and those who weren't) via both non-Jewish family and friends and their stories. Still, it is not the same as the intensity of the persecution against Jews.

More Jews died, everything else is unquantifiable. Seriously how do you quantify intensity, viciousness, or a more intricate level?

I don't need to prove anything. I know what I know, and it is irrelevant to me what someone thinks who has absolutely no connection to the Holocaust or the events of WWII, and whose knowledge of the Holocaust begins and ends with excerpts from Wikipedia.

All you've done here is make assumptions.

[DogOnPorch]

It was not the same intensity, though. You need to let go of your illusions of equal targeting and persecution of Jews and other groups during the Holocaust. It was not the same.

The Nuremburg Laws were for Jews...not Gypsies.

[DogOnPorch]

More Jews died, everything else is unquantifiable. Seriously how do you quantify intensity, viciousness, or a more intricate level?

All you've done here is make assumptions.

The Wannsee Conference was specifically about Jews...not Roma...not JWs...not homosexuals...not Soviet POWs.

[Guest TrueMetis]

The Nuremburg Laws were for Jews...not Gypsies.

They started that way yes, until November 14, 1935 when they where extended. So for 2 months it was for only Jews.

link

[DogOnPorch]

They started that way yes, until November 14, 1935 when they where extended. So for 2 months it was for only Jews.

link

So really...the Holocaust wasn't about the Jews at all.

[Bob]

More Jews died, everything else is unquantifiable. Seriously how do you quantify intensity, viciousness, or a more intricate level?

All you've done here is make assumptions.

Just because it cannot be measured with a thermometer doesn't mean we can't use honest judgement to assess it. Don't pretend to a robot. Just because something requires some heart and honesty to gauge doesn't make it illegitimate. If we measure the guilt of criminals based on context, we can do the same here. Don't be so obtuse.

[Guest TrueMetis]

So really...the Holocaust wasn't about the Jews at all.

No the holocaust was about Germany killing off all those they considered undesirable. Jews, Black, Romani, the Mentally and Physically handicapped, etc.

Just because it cannot be measured with a thermometer doesn't mean we can't use honest judgement to assess it. Don't pretend to a robot. Just because something requires some heart and honesty to gauge doesn't make it illegitimate. If we measure the guilt of criminals based on context, we can do the same here. Don't be so obtuse.

Last I checked there was a way to quantify a criminals actions. How much they stole, how much repairing the damage they did cost, etc.

Edited November 14, 2010 by TrueMetis

[DogOnPorch]

No the holocaust was about Germany killing off all those they considered undesirable. Jews, Black, Romani, the Mentally and Physically handicapped, etc.

But not specifically about the Jews...correct?