Harper blames Israeli stance for UN snub

[dre]

And for the forth time, this conflict isn't about the Jordan River or some dusty well. It's about killing Jews...always has been.

And for the forth time, this conflict isn't about the Jordan River or some dusty well. It's about killing Jews...always has been.

Thats what you might think if you knew absolutely nothing I guess.

But history paints a different picture. The events that lead the current situation are not disputed... virtually ALL of the violence between the signing of the armistice and 1967 was over water, and the biggest clashes were over competing jewish and arab water diversion projects. Never mind the fact that Israel takes more than 80% of the water in the west bank leaving Palestinians with 20%. Never mind the fact that palestinians cant even drill a well without approval from the IDF. Never mind the fact guys like Ariel Sharon have consistantly said the Israel will not compromise on water issues, and described giving up control of the mountain aquifier as "accepting death". Never mind the fact that Israel is one of the only countries in the world to put their water works under military control, and that this was done days before the 1967 invasion of the west bank, and that Israel troops were given orders to to proceed directly to strategic water sources and secure them.

Never mind the fact that virtually every single person who has ever studied the conflict has concluded water access to be one of the largest causes of the conflict, and one of the biggest obstacles to peace.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11101797

And never mind the fact that jews themselves refer to the period prior to the 67 war as "Ha-Milhama al Ha-Maim" which translated to english means "war over water".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_over_Water

And never mind the IDF's history of destroying palestian wells and cisterns to prevent agriculture.

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57936

And never mind the fact that Israel and Lebanon almost went to war AGAIN over water in 2002.

http://www.albionmonitor.com/0209a/copyright/lebanonisraelwater.html

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1004/S00092.htm

http://www.iasps.org/strategic/wihbeyankara.htm

In the Middle East, water is redefining interstate relations. Mutual reliance on dwindling resources has spurred escalating conflicts along the major waterways of the region. Without viable agreement, the Middle East, historically unstable and factional, stands poised to deteriorate into regional infighting over water allocation and accessibility. Arresting this drift will necessitate implementing a strategic architecture that facilitates access to and guarantees distribution of, this diminishing resource. The integration of water into current regional strategic cooperation initiatives may be the only method by which to reverse the tide of escalating water conflicts.

And then we have Military Order 92 given at the outset of the 67 war that puts the IDF in charge of ALL water resources in the west bank effectively declaring Israeli sovereighty over them.

Heres some other hilarious military orders...

Military Order #818: establishes how Palestinians can plant decorative flowers.

Military Order #998: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to make a withdrawal from their bank account.Military Order #93 and amendment: gives all Palestinian insurance businesses to the Israeli Insurance Syndicate.

Military Order #96: forbids transport or purchase of goods on a donkey.

Military Order #537: removes democratically elected Mayors of West Bank cities from their position.

Military Order #811 and #847: allows Jews to purchase land from unwilling Palestinian sellers by using a “power of attorney.”Military Order #25: forbids public inspection of land transactions.

Military Order #58: makes land transactions immune to review so long as the transaction was carried out by an Israeli “acting in good faith.”

Military Order #58, Article 5: says any land transaction will not be voided even if it is proved the transaction was invalid.

Military Order #101: forbids a gathering of more than 10 people unless the Israeli military receives advance notice with names of all participants.

Military Order #107: bans publications including works on Arabic grammar, histories of the Crusades, and works on Arab nationalism.

Military Order #92 and #158: gives the Israeli military control of all West Bank and Gaza Strip water.

Military Order #128: gives the Israeli military the right to take over any Palestinian business which does not open during regular business hours.Military Order #1015: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to plant and grow fruit trees. Permits expire in one year or each June 15.Military Order #847: declares only Israeli notaries can authenticate signatures.

Gosh! Wonder why palestinians are thrilled with the occupation. When you look at the orders given to the IDF its pretty obvious to anyone with a brain there MUCH MORE going on here, than defensive security concerns. Those orders set the stage for permanent colonization, and the plundering of palestinian water.

But yeah... water has nothing to do with the conflict.

As usually DOP you have absolutely nothing. Your place here to to misrepresent your opponents position, post stupid videos, and regurgitate meaningless one-line talking points, and jump up and down screaming "TERRORIST!!! NAZI!!! ANTISEMITE!!!". You have absolutely no relevance.

Stayed tuned for your next deep post... probably a hamas video where you add absolutely no substantive opinion of your own.

Edited November 13, 2010 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

[dre]

ROFLMAO

Stayed tuned for your next deep post... probably a hamas video where you add absolutely no substantive opinion of your own.

And next to come we have another one-line excersize in abject idiocy that says nothing at all... Wait for it...

Edited November 13, 2010 by dre

[Guest TrueMetis]

Gosh! Wonder why palestinians are thrilled with the occupation. When you look at the orders given to the IDF its pretty obvious to anyone with a brain there MUCH MORE going on here, than defensive security concerns. Those orders set the stage for permanent colonization, and the plundering of palestinian water.

If what you listed is even slightly true I'm surprised Israel isn't attacked by Palestinians more often. Why is a country that calls itself a first world nation allowed to do this?

Stayed tuned for your next deep post... probably a hamas video where you add absolutely no substantive opinion of your own.

Called it. Nice job dre.

[DogOnPorch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgYXB34pP54

[dre]

If what you listed is even slightly true I'm surprised Israel isn't attacked by Palestinians more often. Why is a country that calls itself a first world nation allowed to do this?

Called it. Nice job dre.

Yeah... I called the next one too. 4 minutes ahead. LOL.

And next to come we have another one-line excersize in abject idiocy that says nothing at all... Wait for it...

If what you listed is even slightly true

The list is from here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Orders

and here.

http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/israelmilitaryorders/israelimilitaryorders.htm

[Guest TrueMetis]

Yeah... I called the next one too. 4 minutes ahead. LOL.

Dre I said that, DoP just put up another stupid video.

[DogOnPorch]

Dre I said that, DoP just put up another stupid video.

Videos of Palestinians bitching about water.

[dre]

Dre I said that, DoP just put up another stupid video.

Yeah... the forum clown is rather predictable.

Its too bad, because the conflict is not at all a one-sided thing, and theres a lot of intelligent people around that can offer a very well reasoned case for many of Israels actions. DOP just aint one of them.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah... I called the next one too. 4 minutes ahead. LOL.

I enjoy pressing my enemies' buttons. You the most fun around here these days since your other Jew baiting allies aren't around as much. Maybe TM here can start wearing naiomi's hat.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah... the forum clown is rather predictable.

Its too bad, because the conflict is not at all a one-sided thing, and theres a lot of intelligent people around that can offer a very well reasoned case for many of Israels actions. DOP just aint one of them.

It's your job to bitch about Israel. It's my job to point out your pals' National Socialist past.

[dre]

I enjoy pressing my enemies' buttons. You the most fun around here these days since your other Jew baiting allies aren't around as much. Maybe TM here can start wearing naiomi's hat.

You dont push anyones buttons. Your just a common troll and forum clown. Good for a laugh or two which is why I dont add you to my ignored list, but not much beyond that.

I dont have any "jew baiting" allies btw, and Iv never had a single bad thing to say about the jewish people (which include myself and mothers entire side of our family all of whom except her still live in Israel where both my parents lived until the 70's).

Thats the beauty of it... Israeli jews would laugh as hard at you as everyone else does.

[bloodyminded]

It's true that during Israel's retaliations there have been innocents injured and killed from time to time.

If by "from time to time" you mean that Israel has killed far, far more innocent Palestinians than Palestinian terrorism ahs killed innocent Israelis...then you are correct.

That's unfortunate.

Yes, that you really care seems quite evident.

You talk of moral relativism...but clearly you believe that some victims are...less worthy than others.

It's important to note that often this body count is higher than necessary because groups like Hamas use their own as human shields.

You really think that the majority of civilian Palestinian deaths are the result of the use of human shields?

You should tell this to the Israeli leadership...evidently they are unaware, since even they have made no such preposterous claim.

If you are a woman that doesn't want to walk around with a bag over her head, or a gay who would like to hold his lover's hand during a walk,

The Palestinian territories have covered and uncovered women. That's not even debatable.

I'm sure it's highly risky to be openly gay in the terrotories, yes.

Also in Jamaica, by the way. Very dangerous.

would you rather do it in Israel or an Arab country? Or a woman who wants to drive a car, go to school or even treated by a doctor?

You mistake some Islamic regions for all of them.

why?

To me, trying to make some sort of moral equivalency with both sides makes no sense at all. It's not a case of trying to be liberal and fair. It's simply a cop out from making a moral judgement!

Anyone who says (or implies) that Israel's behaviour is always justifiable is certainly making a moral judgement--an extremely radicalized, fringe-opinion, indoctrinated moral judgement.

Edited November 13, 2010 by bloodyminded

[dre]

It's your job to bitch about Israel. It's my job to point out your pals' National Socialist past.

Far from it. Im actually the only one on here that has made a substantive argument IN SUPPORT of Israels actions. I dont believe any other country would do much different if they found themselves in Israels position. You on the other hand have made no such sustantive argument, or any substantive argument about any other subject... ever.

You know who you are, and what you are. Your a clown, and a troll, and either ignores your opponents posts completely (like you did above), or just labels them as nazis, terrorists, or racists.

Thats your shtick and always will be, and even your philosophical allies know it.

[dre]

Heres another good article, by a US/Israeli think tank, that talks about the strategic importance of water in the region, its increasing scarcity, and the very real possibility it will cause a major regional conflict in the near future.

http://www.iasps.org/strategic/water.htm

[DogOnPorch]

Your a clown,

And you're a liberal ideologue.

[Evening Star]

In point of fact, the only places where gays are under threat from anything other than drunken rednecks - is in the Muslim world. Saudi Arabia alone executed 18 people for homosexuality last year. Yet where are the legions of liberals ranting against the Saudis? Where are all the indignant postings from you oh-so-concerned human rights campaigners about Saudi Arabia's treatment of women, or for that matter, Iran's?

Just want to note that 'liberals' and 'human rights campaigners' do certainly target these issues:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_stoning

http://www.ndp.ca/press/statement-on-situation-in-iran

for instance

Even just a glance at Avaaz's 'highlights' page shows that they focus on issues around the world, without any particular focus on Israel:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/highlights/#human_rights

(I just picked Avaaz because they seem like the sort of 'liberal' group that is usually a target of these kinds of comments.)

When I was more of a human rights activist in the 90s, I focused much more on Burma and East Timor than on Israel.

[bloodyminded]

Just want to note that 'liberals' and 'human rights campaigners' do certainly target these issues:

Of course they do.

Argus's complaint is that they don't restrict their focus specifically to his personal liking.

[dre]

And you're a liberal ideologue.

Great job DOP. Almost a whole sentence! (pats head).

Lets take a quick break to organize all the terrible things I am, so people dont lose track of just how bad a guy I am.

Liberal Ideologue.

Holocaust Denier.

Nazi Sympathizer.

Anti Semite.

Terrorist Supporter.

Hamas Lover.

Jew Baiter.

Racist.

National Socialist.

Hell... those are just the names youve called me this week! (WHILE NEVER PROVIDING A SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A SINGLE ONE).

Anyhow... Ill try to keep that list updated for you. I mean when you have guy like me with SO MANY monstrous attributes I can see it getting a little tough to keep everything organized. Especially when by some amazing coincidence everyone else you argue with just HAPPENS to have those same attributes as well.

If this week is as good as your last week, I think we can probably discover EVEN MORE terrible shit about me. PEDOPHILE! You should get that on there (and probably will). COMMUNIST! That would look good on there too (or have you ALREADY called me that and I just forgot to add it?).

[bloodyminded]

Great job DOP. Almost a whole sentence! (pats head).

Lets take a quick break to organize all the terrible things I am, so people dont lose track of just how bad a guy I am.

Liberal Ideologue.

Holocaust Denier.

Nazi Sympathizer.

Anti Semite.

Terrorist Supporter.

Hamas Lover.

Jew Baiter.

Racist.

National Socialist.

Hell... those are just the names youve called me this week! (WHILE NEVER PROVIDING A SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A SINGLE ONE).

Evidence?

You're asking a lot.

[Bob]

Stephen Harper ought to have a cold shower and come out of the closet of referencing his and his parties beliefs to equate Canada's beliefs. 'Canada' is the people and the country, not whatever he thinks, his job is not dictator, it is Prime Minister - the role of running government not the state, and not the will of the people.

The reason why they don't like you Stephen is because you arn't giving them what they want, why would they put someone in the UNSEC who doesn't help them out? Clue in much?

There is nothing wrong in supporting your allies, but don't expect their enemies to buff you nice and shiny after the fact.

BTW most of the Middle East is SEMITIC. If you mean ANTIJEW say it. If you mean ANTIISRAELI say it, the two are not equal. Israel is not all Jewdom, it is simply a Jewish state. A highly racist Jewish state, that subjects all other citizens to place Jews as the master race. Sound familiar? Not all Jews are Semitic. On the contrary there are many many Jews who are not Semitic and many Semites more than those who are Jews that are not Jews.

If he is trying to win Jewish votes maybe he can make intelligent commentary rather than spouting uneducated nonsense. It shows him as really not having a clue about the people he is trying to be buddy buddy with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Israel should take note.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

http://www.rostau.org.uk/ep/EPAlign/MJPeasant.pdf

read it

That was quite a tangent you just went on. The OP is about Harper making what I would consider quite obvious observations: that there is resistance out there against his government's morally-grounded support for Israel. How long have you been waiting for an opportunity to go on a brief rant in which you attempt to redefine anti-Semitism as not being synonymous with anti-Jewish?

Although it's completely irrelevant, it's false to state that the vast majority of the Jewish people aren't Semitic. Most of us may have been exiled for many centuries, culturally, spiritually, and physically. Most of us never lost our roots, though.

[Bob]

Harper has lots to blame.... Too bad he doesn't blame the real culprit...the guy between his two ears.

Are you saying that Canada's failed bid for a seat on the UNSC was a justified and appropriate response to wrong-headed policies of the Harper government? Instead of infantile little jabs without substance, such as the post of your quoted above, why not actually say what's on your mind? Childish rhetoric such as the garbage displayed your post above only diminish the quality of this forum.

[dre]

That was quite a tangent you just went on. The OP is about Harper making what I would consider quite obvious observations: that there is resistance out there against his government's morally-grounded support for Israel. How long have you been waiting for an opportunity to go on a brief rant in which you attempt to redefine anti-Semitism as not being synonymous with anti-Jewish?

Although it's completely irrelevant, it's false to state that the vast majority of the Jewish people aren't Semitic. Most of us may have been exiled for many centuries, culturally, spiritually, and physically. Most of us never lost our roots, though.

Semitic is a linguistic distinction though. Heres a list of the semitic languages widely spoken today.

Arabic (206 million native speakers)

Amharic (27 million)

Tigrinya (5.8 million)

Hebrew (5 million)

Hes NOT the one redefining words. The actual literal definition of that term is...

Se·mit·ic   /səˈmɪtɪk/ Show Spelled

[suh-mit-ik] Show IPA

–noun

1. a subfamily of Afroasiatic languages that includes Akkadian, arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopic, Hebrew, and Phoenician.

Its people that attempt to use this term ONLY to describe jews that are redefining words.

[Bob]

Keystone, you seem to speak quite a bit about the "Jewish lobby" in Canada. Who are you speaking about? Are you talking about me and my family, and my local Jewish community back in Ottawa? Are you speaking about specific Jewish organizations? Does the Jewish community in Canada primarily vote for the most "pro-Israel" party?

What other lobbies might Harper be alienating as a result of his policies towards Israel? Would you speak so confidently about the "Muslim lobby" in Canada? Do you know that the Muslim population of Canada doubles the Jewish population of Canada? What about prominent Muslim organizations who have distinctly opposing opinions towards the Israeli-Arab conflict when compared to those of the Harper administration?

I find it amusing as well as offensive (I know, a strange blend) to read statements from non-Jews like yourself who seem to know so much about this phantom "Jewish lobby" in Canada.

I'll say one last thing on a personal level. I initially began to see a distinctive increase in support for Israel from the Conservative party a few years ago. I'll share an anecdote: I was at a Jewish community holiday festival in a small Ottawa neighborhood a couple of years ago, and I remember John Baird saying a few words that were very "pro-Israel", as well as very simplistic. I remember being sceptical about this new phenomenon, was the Conservative party simply trying to pander to the pro-Israeli leanings of the Jewish community, all-the-while knowing that the Jewish community of Canada traditionally supports the Liberal party overwhelmingly (unfortunately, just as the Jewish community of the USA traditionally supports the Democratic party overwhelmingly)? It bothered me to think that Israel might be being used as a political football simply to garner votes. After speaking with some close Jewish friends who have had direct communications with high-level officials in both the Conservative and Liberal parties, I was told (and I believe this) that the Conservative party's support for Israel, primarily Harper's as PM, is genuine and rooted in principle, and not in politics. Of course I cannot share the details of these direct contacts, but all I can say is that I trusted the judgement of those who personally told me that this is not a superficial political support, but a principled one. That being said, there are many more votes to be gained in Canada by being anti-Israel, unfortunately. Take a glance at the CBC talkback sections on articles dealing with the Israeli-Arab conflict, and it'll be instantly clear that anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and anti-Semitic sentiment is very prevalent among Canadians.

[Bob]

Semitic is a linguistic distinction though. Heres a list of the semitic languages widely spoken today.

Arabic (206 million native speakers)

Amharic (27 million)

Tigrinya (5.8 million)

Hebrew (5 million)

Hes NOT the one redefining words. The actual literal definition of that term is...

Its people that attempt to use this term ONLY to describe jews that are redefining words.

I really don't want to go off on this tangent, but very often words evolve beyond their simplistic literal understandings. Why do I need to explain to this to you? It's the natural evolution of language. So although the terms "Semites/Semitic" refer to a groups of people much broader than just the Jewish people, the term "anti-Semitism" as it is now understood is a synonym of "anti-Jewish", and has been for quite some time now. Any dictionary will confirm this. There is something very strange about people who bring this subject up and try to attack the meanings of commonly used terminology. Without fail, these types of irrelevant tangents are always brought up by the anti-Israel crowd. Surprise, surprise.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Bob