French nationalists wearing pig masks storm halal restaurant

[Machjo]

Interesting how food has now become a symbol of national identity in France all of a sudden. If a vegetarian restaurant refuses to sell pork, no problem. But if a burger restaurant refuses to, suddenly national identity is threatened?

[wyly]

Interesting how food has now become a symbol of national identity in France all of a sudden. If a vegetarian restaurant refuses to sell pork, no problem. But if a burger restaurant refuses to, suddenly national identity is threatened?

it shouldn't be protested for it's choice of food but how the animals are butchered...kosher meat and halal are both barbaric and allow the animals to suffer needlessly, the method of slaughter should be stopped...there are videos'on the web that demonstrate the killing and suffering of the animlas, it isn't pretty...

[Bonam]

France is being swarmed with Muslims that are rapidaly and radically changing the way of life and the culture of that area. In another generation, going to France to see French culture and the French language will be a quaint notion of days past. Instead, we'll have the Islamic Republic of Frankistan. Understandably, there is a backlash against this mass migration by French people. What do you expect?

Edited September 5, 2010 by Bonam

[Machjo]

it shouldn't be protested for it's choice of food but how the animals are butchered...kosher meat and halal are both barbaric and allow the animals to suffer needlessly, the method of slaughter should be stopped...there are videos'on the web that demonstrate the killing and suffering of the animlas, it isn't pretty...

Prefering a vegan diet myself, far be it from me to defend any unnecessary killing of animals. That said, according to the research alluded to in English translation here, from the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany:

http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halalstudy.htm

Which in its turn is referenced in a German federal judgement referred to in English translatin here:

http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rs20020115_1bvr178399en.html

"The slaughter in the form of ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to the EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions.

During the experiments with captive bolt stunning no indications could be found for proscribing this method for calves.

For sheep, however, there were in parts severe reactions both to the bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli. A proof of the reliable effectiveness of captive bolt stunning could not be provided using the methods applied."

So it would seem that if the concern is with the humane slaughter of animals, then the Islamic method is in fact less painful than the comonly used method in Germany and elsewhere.

And all the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations and Humane Society International have to say about it is:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6909E/x6909e00.HTM

"the animals that are slaughtered according to kosher and halal should be securely restrained, particularly the head and neck, before cutting the throat" as "movements (during slaughter) results in a poor cut, bad bleeding, slow loss of consciousness, if at all, and pain."

Of course as a vegan I'd say that unless you do not have access to a vegan diet, you should not sloughter animals period. But, if one must, then it would appear that in fact the Islamic and Jewish methods are in fact less painful that other commonly used methods.

[Machjo]

France is being swarmed with Muslims that are rapidaly and radically changing the way of life and the culture of that area. In another generation, going to France to see French culture and the French language will be a quaint notion of days past. Instead, we'll have the Islamic Republic of Frankistan. Understandably, there is a backlash against this mass migration by French people. What do you expect?

You don't know your history, do you. Though Algeria was first a French colony, for a period of time it had actually become a French department, an overseas territory and extension of France's borders, with all Algerians being French by birth. For this reason, all Algerians born prior to Algeria's separation from France remained French citizens. This is part of the reason for France's large Muslim comunity today. It has more to do with marriage and children than immigration now; those Algeriens had gone to France long ago.

Now as bad as French colonization of Algeria was, I actually applaud France for at least making Algerians their equals rather than second-class citizens. I'm still not excusing France's imperialism of course, but merely saying that at least they recognized the moral dilemma of making some Frenchmen 'more equal than others', and acted on it accordingly.

Now I'm sure some will say 'that' was a mistake. Well, 'what' was a mistake? The colonization of Algeria or granting Algerians equality with the 'mainlanders in France? I'd answer that yes, colonizing Algeria was indeed a mistake. Had France not colonized Algeria in the first place, it would not be having these problems today. That said, once colonization was done though, then I'd say granting equality for all Frenchmen, whether mainlander or colonist, was a moral imperative.

Now yes, they are paying the price. If they did not want this problem in the first place, then they should have thought about that before going out and colonizing the world.

[Bonam]

Now yes, they are paying the price. If they did not want this problem in the first place, then they should have thought about that before going out and colonizing the world.

Blah blah they are all guilty and should "pay the price" because their ancestors (mostly long dead) did something you find objectionable. Sorry but that argument has no weight with me. And even if they "deserve" it as you wrongly argue, still, why would they take it lying down? Oh and your assertion that modern day immigration doesn't play a major role is completely false:

As of 2006, the French national institute of statistics INSEE estimated that 4.9 million foreign-born immigrants live in France (8% of the country's population)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Today

[bud]

France is being swarmed with Muslims that are rapidaly and radically changing the way of life and the culture of that area.

would you have been okay if these guys had ran into a jewish deli? are the jews changing the french culture with their kosher/no pig diet?

[Machjo]

Blah blah they are all guilty and should "pay the price" because their ancestors (mostly long dead) did something you find objectionable. Sorry but that argument has no weight with me. And even if they "deserve" it as you wrongly argue, still, why would they take it lying down? Oh and your assertion that modern day immigration doesn't play a major role is completely false:

As of 2006, the French national institute of statistics INSEE estimated that 4.9 million foreign-born immigrants live in France (8% of the country's population)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Today

Of course immigration plays a role. What I'm saying is that Algeria was a French colony only in the beginning, later to be reclassified as a French overseas department, thus making all Algerian territory French territory, and thus all who were born in Algeria French citizens. Many of them went to France during that period, most French muslims of today having been born in France. So, what are you suggesting, that they all be sent back to Algeria?

Now if yu're bolde enough to comment in this thread, then I'll have to assume you know about the derogatorily-named 'pieds-noirs', Frenchmen and women who'd moved to Algeria in large numbers, many of whom chose to remain in Algeria after indepence, with their children born after independence having Algerian citizenship only. Yet Algeria has accepted them in spite of the fact that many mainland Frenchmen of the time called them 'pied noirs'. So, should France and Algeria arrange a swap or what? You complain about the 'Islamization' of France. You are aware aren't you that Algeria is also struggling with Francization, with French culture having a significant role in its history? It goes both ways. Why so silent over Francization in Algeria?

[Machjo]

Also, why aren't they protesting vegetarian restaurants, when we consider that all they sell is halal food!

[wyly]

Prefering a vegan diet myself, far be it from me to defend any unnecessary killing of animals. That said, according to the research alluded to in English translation here, from the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany:

http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halalstudy.htm

Which in its turn is referenced in a German federal judgement referred to in English translatin here:

http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rs20020115_1bvr178399en.html

"The slaughter in the form of ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to the EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions.

During the experiments with captive bolt stunning no indications could be found for proscribing this method for calves.

For sheep, however, there were in parts severe reactions both to the bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli. A proof of the reliable effectiveness of captive bolt stunning could not be provided using the methods applied."

So it would seem that if the concern is with the humane slaughter of animals, then the Islamic method is in fact less painful than the comonly used method in Germany and elsewhere.

And all the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations and Humane Society International have to say about it is:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6909E/x6909e00.HTM

"the animals that are slaughtered according to kosher and halal should be securely restrained, particularly the head and neck, before cutting the throat" as "movements (during slaughter) results in a poor cut, bad bleeding, slow loss of consciousness, if at all, and pain."

Of course as a vegan I'd say that unless you do not have access to a vegan diet, you should not sloughter animals period. But, if one must, then it would appear that in fact the Islamic and Jewish methods are in fact less painful that other commonly used methods.

in other words you haven't seen an animal slaughter by the traditional method...

[Machjo]

in other words you haven't seen an animal slaughter by the traditional method...

OK, I'll admit that I'm ignorant of how cattle is slaughtered in Canada. This research was done in Germany, where captive bolt stunning is the common method, where it was found that in some cases it is more painful than the Islamic method. So at least within the German context (though I don't know how it is in France either, I admit), the Islamic method is more humane than the commonly used German method. So looking at it that way, whether the Islamic method is more or less humane will depend on the country being referenced I suppose. In fact in Germany one reason the court did in fact make an exception for the Islamic method was in fact based on this research.

Again, this might not apply in France or Canada, but I'm certainly open to education there. Do we use captive bolt cutting here? And what about in France?

[bill_barilko]

I can't speak pig French-what were the protestors saying?

[Machjo]

I can't speak pig French-what were the protestors saying?

In a nutshell, they're saying French culture is based on Christian traditions, they protest that a French-government department owns shares in the Quick chain, and they oppose the 'Islamization' of France.

About the only two valid points they came up with were:

1. France's Christian tradition (though still a weak argument in that if it's based on Christian 'traditions', then it should also be based on loving our neighbour, no? And Christianity is supposed to be a living Faith, not just a blind 'tradition' pulled out as a wild-card for nationalist causes. And finally, add to that that officially France is supposed to be secular. So which is it?), and

2. that a French-government department owns shares in Quick. Fair enough argument, granted, but like any other corporation, the final decision ought to rest with the company's board of directors. If the government does not like it, it's always free to sell of its shares.

As for Quick going mostly halal in several locations (though it still sells beer) was a strictly commercial decision on the part of the company based on market research, and has nothing to do with any Muslim community having put any political pressure on the company.

[fellowtraveller]

I actually applaud France for at least making Algerians their equals rather than second-class citizens.

You are utterly delusional if you think the French govt or France in general treats Algerians as equals.

Did you know that every written job application requires an accompanying photo of the applicant. Now why do you think that might be? BTW, my knowledge comes from a family member who lives in France longterm.

Without the photos, many persons with brown/black skin and French names would sneak through to the interview stage, when everybody knows there chances of getting the job is nil.

That is not what the law says there, but that is how it works and that includes the civil service. Once quotas are filled, no more non white non French hires.

[M.Dancer]

Did you know that every written job application requires an accompanying photo of the applicant.

I did not know that. I suspect I did not know that because it is not true.

[fellowtraveller]

I did not know that. I suspect I did not know that because it is not true.

I guess that means that my nephew, niece, and sister in law are all chronic liars and the stacks of passport syle photos next to their employment applications on the sideboard in their home near Arras are part of a conspiracy to mislead me.

How disappointing..

[CANADIEN]

Oh my... the candal... a chain of restaurant that sells a mstly halal menu... The French language is about to disappear from France...

Those idiots are free to go eat elswhere.

[Machjo]

You are utterly delusional if you think the French govt or France in general treats Algerians as equals.

Did you know that every written job application requires an accompanying photo of the applicant. Now why do you think that might be? BTW, my knowledge comes from a family member who lives in France longterm.

Without the photos, many persons with brown/black skin and French names would sneak through to the interview stage, when everybody knows there chances of getting the job is nil.

That is not what the law says there, but that is how it works and that includes the civil service. Once quotas are filled, no more non white non French hires.

Pardon me. I wasn't referencing general French culture here, but merely the legal status of Algerians near the end of the colonial period. They were full-fledged French citizens. I do agree though that today France has become extremely xenophobic.

[Machjo]

I should also clarify that when I said France had made Algerians their equal, I was referring strictly in a historical context during the time of empire and only on an official level in that they were all given France citizenship. By no means did I intend to imply that even there Algerians were fully equal in daily life. I'm sure they were likely just as xenophobic as they are now if not more so. One of their intentions then though was to assimilate the Algerians into French culture to make Algeria a permanent French territory. Clearly their intent was to transform Algerians and not just accept them as is. I still admire their willingness at the time to treat the Algerians they ruled over a full-fledged citizens in spite of all those flaws though.

[jbg]

Interesting how food has now become a symbol of national identity in France all of a sudden. If a vegetarian restaurant refuses to sell pork, no problem. But if a burger restaurant refuses to, suddenly national identity is threatened?

That video is too funny even if I couldn't understand a word of it.

[jbg]

would you have been okay if these guys had ran into a jewish deli? are the jews changing the french culture with their kosher/no pig diet?

Is Jew or Israel-hatred part of all your posts?