Gun Control

[Saipan]

This is a looong thread, and I am late to it.

Question...

If we register every single car, and no-one really cares that the Government is being unduly intrusive into our lives to do so, why is it such an invasion of privacy or intrusion on our God Given Rights to register our firearms?

Answer...

Unlike registered firearms, no one is confiscating registered (and even unregistered) cars.

The fact is, the cost is not the reason people object to the registry, it is merely the argument they use to fortify their feelings that the gun registry somehow harms them individually.

Generally speaking, people frown on confiscation and police state mentality.

[guyser]

Answer...

Unlike registered firearms, no one is confiscating registered (and even unregistered) cars.

Sure they are, for the same reasons they confiscate guns, doing something illegal.

Hard to understand?

[Saipan]

If we register every single car

We don't. You can own whole collection of UNREGISTERED cars.

You can even own unregistered, unlicenced tractor and drive it without insurance on public road.

[guyser]

We don't. You can own whole collection of UNREGISTERED cars.

We went over this and you were proven wrong .

If you think you can, explain how and/or provide a link

[Saipan]

Actually you were proven wrong.

What do you think will happen if you have 100 unregistered vehicles?

[guyser]

Actually you were proven wrong.

What do you think will happen if you have 100 unregistered vehicles?

No I wasnt

Tell us how one can obtain an unregistered car?

Edited May 13, 2011 by guyser

[ninjandrew]

No I wasnt

Tell us how one can obtain an unregistered car?

Wouldnt you just by a car from somebody whose registration is expired? I think what saipan is saying is that you can own an uninsured, unregistered vehicle and drive it without it being confiscated. They MAY confiscate it depending on the circumstances of course, and the discretion of the officer that pulls you over. If its an unregistered rifle locked in a gun locker with a trigger lock and the ammo locked up separately, they can, and are perhaps obligated to confiscate it.

[Saipan]

Tell us how one can obtain an unregistered car?

Yes, I'll tell "us". You buy (or get for free) one say for parts.

If you buy a vehicle and don't register then it's not registered. How complicated is that?

You can also turn two unregistered vehicles into one and then register it when it passes safety (and in Toronto emission).

Edited May 13, 2011 by Saipan

[guyser]

Wouldnt you just by a car from somebody whose registration is expired? I think what saipan is saying is that you can own an uninsured, unregistered vehicle and drive it without it being confiscated.

A registration does NOT expire. Plates do.

Any car that ever rolled off an assembly line has what is called a Nivis card attached. A dealer sells the car he has to by law register it. So it is registered and always will be.

If one has 100 cars in the driveway but not reg'd to him, then he is not the owner by law and they can be scooped up legally at anytime.

One cannot legally drive a car on a public road without insurance or equivalent depending on where you are.

He doesnt know a lot of stuff, including gun and ownership. Go back and read, he has been pantsed numerous times.

[guyser]

Yes, I'll tell "us". You buy (or get for free) one say for parts.

Which by the way is registered before you buy it.

If you buy a vehicle and don't register it it's not registered. How complicated is that?

Its already registered before you buy it. If it ever went on the road it was registered. If it ever came off an assembly line it is registered.

You can also turn two unregistered vehicles into one and then register it when it passes safety (and in Toronto emission).

No you cant. Both are already registered.

See, you were taught this before, but you must have forgot............yeah forgot. That must be it.

Bold for the learning disabled.

Edited May 13, 2011 by guyser

[Saipan]

If one has 100 cars in the driveway but not reg'd to him, then he is not the owner by law and they can be scooped up legally at anytime.

Nothing to do with bylaw how many cars you can have in a driveway. Same goes for boats, 'though they too don't have to be registered.

How would one "scoop" cars from someone's private property. I'd like to see that

One cannot legally drive a car on a public road without insurance or equivalent depending on where you are.

No one said you can. I only said you can do it with a tractor.

[ninjandrew]

Nothing to do with bylaw how many cars you can have in a driveway. Same goes for boats, 'though they too don't have to be registered.

How would one "scoop" cars from someone's private property. I'd like to see that

No one said you can. I only said you can do it with a tractor.

My bad on the tractor/vehicle thing.

My girlfriend works for Alberta Registries and according to her you can have as many unregistered vehicles as you like so long as they stay on private property (unlike unregistered rifles). She says the purpose of registering the vehicle is to show that it is in active status, not salvage, stolen or not road worthy.

guyser, when you speak of them being registered off the assembly line I think you're thinking of something else. Perhaps the VIN being registered in the manufacturers database?

Also, regarding the expiring plates; the stickers on your plates which expire ARE your registration. They expire yearly on the month your last name lands on.

[segnosaur]

This is a looong thread, and I am late to it.

Question...

If we register every single car, and no-one really cares that the Government is being unduly intrusive into our lives to do so, why is it such an invasion of privacy or intrusion on our God Given Rights to register our firearms?

Because the expectation is that a car will be used on a public land (i.e. a road) in a frequent basis, and will regularly interact with other individuals in the same environment. On the other hand, your average firearm will likely spend the majority of its existence outside of public view. A significant number may not be used for years, if at all, and when they are used, the usage is tightly restricted (e.g. private land, or areas outside urban areas.)

I could also point out that the number of deaths caused by vehicles is substantially higher than for firearms. There is approximately 1 death for every 7000 vehicles on the road (17-18 million vehicles, ~2,700 deaths). On the other hand, there is 1 death for every 11,000 firearms in the county (~800 deaths, ~9 million firearms). Because the number of deaths is higher for cars than firearms (on a per-item basis), greater attention/intrusion is warranted.

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/Publications/statistics/cvs05/chapter1.cfm?attr=0 (Vehicle count)

http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Sask+leads+provinces+number+deaths+roadways+Transport+Canada/4180411/story.html (vehicle deaths)

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/GunsinCanada.htm (firearm count)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2005/06/28/gun-deaths050628.html (firearm deaths)

The fact is, the cost is not the reason people object to the registry...

What, are you a mind reader? How do you know the reason people might object to the registry?

Some might object to the cost, some may object to the intrusion in their life, and some might object to it based on a combination of the 2 factors.

Unlike registered firearms, no one is confiscating registered (and even unregistered) cars.

Sure they are, for the same reasons they confiscate guns, doing something illegal.

Hard to understand?

But unlike cars, there is also a risk (well, I should say greater risk) that the firearm will be confiscated not because its been used for some illegal purpose, but simply because the simple possession of it is considered illegal.

For example, in 1991 they passed bill C-17, which placed restrictions on the ownership of handguns with a barrel below a certain length. Anyone owning such a firearm, even if they do not have it confiscated, are severely limited in their ability to sell such an item. Given that precedent, some gun owners are concerned that those 'restrictions' will gradually be expanded until they include all firearms.

[guyser]

Nothing to do with bylaw how many cars you can have in a driveway.

Comprehension, I said nothing about 'bylaw' 's whatsoever.

But by law , if those cars are not regoistered to you they can be popped off your property at any time, legally too . If I own any of them I can at any time come and take it. Not a damn thing you can do about it.

Same goes for boats, 'though they too don't have to be registered.

A pleasure craft powered by 10HP or more must be licenced unless it is already registered. Law of canada.

Learn them.

How would one "scoop" cars from someone's private property. I'd like to see that

With a tow truck or use the keys. The rightful owner puts the key in the ignition and turns it. Pretty easy too !

No one said you can. I only said you can do it with a tractor.

Only to go from one farm to another or to a repair facility. Otherwise illegal. Must have lights , SLM triangle and operator must be 16 and over but not necessarily have a DL.

[guyser]

My girlfriend works for Alberta Registries and according to her you can have as many unregistered vehicles as you like so long as they stay on private property (unlike unregistered rifles). She says the purpose of registering the vehicle is to show that it is in active status, not salvage, stolen or not road worthy.

Ask her to check the regs again. She is likely wrong too.

The car is registered when it is first bought. It remains that way forever or when sold, then it is re-registered either with plates or an Unfit Vehicle Permit. All this means is it is registered but not plated for the road or roadworthy.

If your GF was right, how would one ever be able to produce evidence they own it?

guyser, when you speak of them being registered off the assembly line I think you're thinking of something else. Perhaps the VIN being registered in the manufacturers database?

Also, regarding the expiring plates; the stickers on your plates which expire ARE your registration. They expire yearly on the month your last name lands on.

No that is not what I was saying.

A veh coming off the line is not reg'd. It gets shipped with a Nivis card (IIRC) and when the dealer sells it it gets reg'd then.....by law they have to.

In ontario stickers validate the plates and the ownership validates who owns the car. They can even be separate entities too.

Edited May 13, 2011 by guyser

[Saipan]

My girlfriend works for Alberta Registries and according to her you can have as many unregistered vehicles as you like so long as they stay on private property (unlike unregistered rifles).

Seems few people knew that same went for unregistered LONG firearms. Because they were ALWAYS covered by amnesty. First by Liberals (to save face) then by CBC and now soon there won't be need for any amnesty as the registration is being crapped.

guyser, when you speak of them being registered off the assembly line I think you're thinking of something else. Perhaps the VIN being registered in the manufacturers database?

He forgot the OWNER regitration is valid only with the original owner specified on that registration. Once the vehicle changes owner and not re-registered to a new owner registration paper becomes as useful as teets on a bull. Simply unregistered car, as the heap of cars in a scrap yard.

[guyser]

He forgot the OWNER regitration is valid only with the original owner specified on that registration. Once the vehicle changes owner and not re-registered to a new owner registration paper becomes as useful as teets on a bull. Simply unregistered car, as the heap of cars in a scrap yard.

Lord you are thick arent you?

The registration of a vehicle, no matter how long or how many sales it has gone through legally belongs to the person who it is registered too. The Ministry database is the absolute final say on all of this.

Say I sell a car to person X but dont give him the registration, signed and noted, and send him on his way.....I can legally go and retrieve that car at anytime and anywhere. Not a damn thing you can legally do about it in the short term. Perhaps long term you will prove in court I took the money, but the fact is the police on the day you report me will tell you...."show the proof"

Only one of us willl be able to do that. It wont be you.

The heap of cars in the scrap yard , some will have reg'd papers on file , some wont, but the ones that dont are scrapped and de-commissioned anyhow so no one will steal it anyway nor drive on any road.

[noahbody]

The fact is, the cost is not the reason people object to the registry, it is merely the argument they use to fortify their feelings that the gun registry somehow harms them individually.

I object to it because it's a moronic political solution that costs a lot of money and accomplishes nothing.

Police always have to assume people have a firearm or it endangers their lives.

Registered long gun homicides aren't a problem anyway. There's only 12 per year (on average). I would expect the vast majority of those are domestic disputes.

[ninjandrew]

Lord you are thick arent you?

The registration of a vehicle, no matter how long or how many sales it has gone through legally belongs to the person who it is registered too. The Ministry database is the absolute final say on all of this.

Say I sell a car to person X but dont give him the registration, signed and noted, and send him on his way.....I can legally go and retrieve that car at anytime and anywhere. Not a damn thing you can legally do about it in the short term. Perhaps long term you will prove in court I took the money, but the fact is the police on the day you report me will tell you...."show the proof"

Only one of us willl be able to do that. It wont be you.

The heap of cars in the scrap yard , some will have reg'd papers on file , some wont, but the ones that dont are scrapped and de-commissioned anyhow so no one will steal it anyway nor drive on any road.

Soooooo... vehicle registration and bill of sale are the same thing?

[guyser]

Soooooo... vehicle registration and bill of sale are the same thing?

No

Bill of sale is for tax reasons and following a trail.

Put it this way.

You come to my place nin, I sell you a car I own. You pay cash and take it. You forget to get ownership + you forgot to get me to sign over the ownershipn (registration)

I go to your place Sunday night at midnite and take the car. You call the cops, I show them the registration and the cops can do nothing but say sorry to you. He has proof of ownership.

Hell , you can sell that car to someone else and they do the same down the line (irrational I grant you) 5 times, I can always grab that car and show proof of ownership and the law is on my side.

The way to do it, and protect yourself is thus...

Sell a car, sign the back, give or get a bill of sale, go to the ministry and re-register the car to the new owner but do so as a "unfit vehicle permit" This means the new owner, in his newly titled to him, must get a safety certificate before plating it. In this way you are free of any liability.

The same goes for plates, wreckers and anyone else. If the plates are used after you relinguish them,you are still legally liable and if one uses the 407, you will get the bill. If someone crashes the car you are held liable for the vehicle and this results in...

1) one major hit on your insurance

2) a huge $ ticket for driving no insurance (and you werent driving)

3)mega legal dollars spent by you.

Always always protect yourself and if its your own damn mother, get the car out of your name before it leaves your eyesight.

[Saipan]

But by law , if those cars are not regoistered to you they can be popped off your property at any time, legally too.

If I own any of them I can at any time come and take it.

Yes, but you don't own them

A pleasure craft powered by 10HP or more must be licenced unless it is already registered. Law of canada.

They are not powered in a driveway.

Learn them.

I had to learn more than that, sailing three continents for 55 years.

[Saipan]

I go to your place Sunday night at midnite and take the car. You call the cops

and funeral home.

[guyser]

and funeral home.

That may be true, but you'll b e arrested, charged and convicted and imprisoned.

And you can sit in your depends til 'end time and regret what you did.

[Saipan]

On what charge?

[guyser]

On what charge?

I can only assume you meant you would shoot me. If I am correct then evidence would show I wasnt carrying a gun.

Ergo , you have no right to defence since you are not endangered in any way. Murder is the charge in that case, although you may be able to plead guilty to manslaughter, but either way, you would be charged and convicted.

Here...

Section 38: Defence of personal property

38. (1) Every one who is in peaceable possession of personal property, and every one lawfully assisting him, is justified

(a) in preventing a trespasser from taking it, or

( in taking it from a trespasser who has taken it,

if he does not strike or cause bodily harm to the trespasser.

Assault by trespasser

(2) Where a person who is in peaceable possession of personal property lays hands on it, a trespasser who persists in attempting to keep it or take it from him or from any one lawfully assisting him shall be deemed to commit an assault without justification or provocation.

This makes it clear that you cannot use violence against a criminal who has your stuff until he assaults you by resisting your taking back your goods, at which time you may forcibly deal with his assault according to the statutes in place, a full rendering of which is available in Canadian Law and Self Defence.

Firing a firearm at thieves as they drive away with your belongings seems to be unjustified under these laws.

So be it.

Criminal code

Edited May 13, 2011 by guyser