Atleo calls for end of Indian Act within five years

[Guest TrueMetis]

Multiculturalism argues that all cultures are equal, but they're not.

That's not what it argues at all.

Anyone that tries to pass this crap off as culture that's equal to the culture that Canada inherited from Britain and Europe is speaking out of the wrong orifice.

Seriously you have no idea what you're talking about. If you did know what you were talking about you would know that we inherited our culture from the Islamic world as well.

And as far as I'm concerned, hyphenated Canadians are tourists.

You really don't want to play that game with me.

Edited July 24, 2010 by TrueMetis

[charter.rights]

Multiculturalism argues that all cultures are equal, but they're not.

No. Multiculturalism is an attempt to marginalize all minorities into one homogeneous group and destabilize their complaints of rights abuses and lack of services.

Edited July 24, 2010 by charter.rights

[Smallc]

Because Canada lacks one thing the other countries do not - land.

Without a connection to the land, there is no culture and without culture there is no identity.

Yet Six Nations have an identity, because they have land, a long historic connection to it, culture and and an identity.

See! See!

[Guest TrueMetis]

See! See!

Having him on ignore isn't so effective if your just going to keep quoting him.

[Smallc]

Sorry.

[justme]

That's not what it argues at all.

"The view that the various cultures in a society merit equal respect and scholarly interest."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/multiculturalism

Seriously you have no idea what you're talking about. If you did know what you were talking about you would know that we inherited our culture from the Islamic world as well.

I'm aware of the nonsense that the politically correct spew, but the reality is that islam spread by persecution, and was stopped in France, and later in Vienna - on September 11th, 1683. It'll be interesting to see if Europe can resist a third muslim invasion via immigration and high birthrate. Mohammed is now the most popular name for baby boys in London.

You really don't want to play that game with me.

You mean argue with confused liberals? I do it all the time.

[Guest TrueMetis]

"The view that the various cultures in a society merit equal respect and scholarly interest."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/multiculturalism

Equal respect does not mean equal.

I'm aware of the nonsense that the politically correct spew, but the reality is that islam spread by persecution, and was stopped in France, and later in Vienna - on September 11th, 1683. It'll be interesting to see if Europe can resist a third muslim invasion via immigration and high birthrate. Mohammed is now the most popular name for baby boys in London.

Every religion is spread by persecution, and last time I checked Christians invaded first and Islam was the one defending the basic freedoms that came to make up western values. Europeans where definitely the more aggressive of the two as they where the countries that declared holy wars. The Islamic world conquered but then so did every other country of the time. Interesting how things can change in a few hundred years. Remember it was the Islamic world that protected the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans, not the Europeans.

You mean argue with confused liberals? I do it all the time.

Everyone who opposes you views is a liberal, must be lonely in you binary world.

[justme]

Equal respect does not mean equal.

However you want to argue it, the government will not mandate what I respect. That said, it's common knowledge that there is heavy emphasis on equality.

Multiculturalism as a doctrine stipulates all cultures are of equal merit and deserve equal treatment. What remain unspecified — perhaps deliberately — in this formula are the criteria by which the equality of cultures is assessed.

The idea that Canada has been multicultural since the first Europeans arrived on its shores is a recent invention. It was devised out of necessity and bad faith to mitigate the challenge that Quebec nationalism and separatism presented to English Canada.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/salim_mansur/2010/04/30/13777901.html

But with a name like Salim Mansur, you probably think he's just a white racist.

Every religion is spread by persecution, and last time I checked Christians invaded first and Islam was the one defending the basic freedoms that came to make up western values. Europeans where definitely the more aggressive of the two as they where the countries that declared holy wars. The Islamic world conquered but then so did every other country of the time. Interesting how things can change in a few hundred years. Remember it was the Islamic world that protected the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans, not the Europeans.

Here we go with the moral equivalence....

Check again, muslims invaded/attacked much of christendom, including four of the five patriarchates: Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem long before the first crusade was called in 1095. And, of course, it was done for religious reasons. Constantinople was the location of the largest church, which was later converted to a mosque. The crusades were called to secure holy lands, where churches were destroyed and christians attacked, for pilgrimages.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Qu'ran Surrah 9, Verse 29)

Islam gave people three choices: convert, accept second-class status, or be killed. And hostility towards Christians and Jews is right in the Qu'ran.

Everyone who opposes you views is a liberal, must be lonely in you binary world.

Multiculturalism and political correctness are pushed by liberals. You can put a different label on it, but the content remains the same.

Edited July 24, 2010 by justme

[Shwa]

Multiculturalism and political correctness are pushed by liberals. You can put a different label on it, but the content remains the same.

Fair enough. Then tell me, what are the conservatives trying to conserve in Canada then? Because from where I sit, the conservatives have been pushing multiculturalism, employment equity and immigration along like everybody else for the past generation. And I believe that the current conservative members of government also adhere to public political correctness when opening their traps.

I wonder why they do that?

It is likely because they 'respect' the fact that should they blow off the handle like some anonymous schmuck on some internet forum they will likely get roundly booted from their party and ostracized in their community. In this sense, they are trying to conserve their power and not much else, lacking the balls to be honest about their true feelings on the matter.

And the other downside of conservatism - in the sense that you believe it exists - is that it is weak since it has failed to remove all the bad things it continually bleets about. I mean, that part should at least be obvious to you. That weakness I mean.

[Guest TrueMetis]

However you want to argue it, the government will not mandate what I respect. That said, it's common knowledge that there is heavy emphasis on equality.

But with a name like Salim Mansur, you probably think he's just a white racist.

Common knowledge doesn't mean it's right, usually common knowledge is just another name for ignorance.

Here we go with the moral equivalence....

Check again, muslims invaded/attacked much of christendom, including four of the five patriarchates: Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem long before the first crusade was called in 1095. And, of course, it was done for religious reasons. Constantinople was the location of the largest church, which was later converted to a mosque. The crusades were called to secure holy lands, where churches were destroyed and christians attacked, for pilgrimages.

Remind me again what religion largely ruled the mid east before Islam was formed, oh yes Christianity. The Christians invaded first then when the Islamic empire formed it conquer the land the Christians conquered . Then the Christians came back with their crusades. Which totally failed. Why is it ok for Christians to conquer a land but not Muslims?

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Qu'ran Surrah 9, Verse 29)

al-Hashimi a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun

"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empary of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be upon you and the blessings of God!"

Oh and by the way, believers in Allah, as all Allah means is God, would include Christians and Jews. The most it says is the Christians and Jews had to pay tribute, and considering what Christians would do to each other that's pretty freaking enlightened.

Islam gave people three choices: convert, accept second-class status, or be killed. And hostility towards Christians and Jews is right in the Qu'ran.

Those with "second-class status" where pretty well off since the Islamic empires allowed freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Why do you think so many Christian and Jewish scientists lived in the Islamic empires?

[justme]

Common knowledge doesn't mean it's right, usually common knowledge is just another name for ignorance.

If you want to find out, since you seem to admit that not all cultures are equal, go around saying that the culture Canada inherited from Great Britain and Europe is superior to that of immigrants coming to Canada today and see how far you get before you get accused of racism. Can you as easily prove your own arguement? I rest my case.

Remind me again what religion largely ruled the mid east before Islam was formed, oh yes Christianity. The Christians invaded first then when the Islamic empire formed it conquer the land the Christians conquered . Then the Christians came back with their crusades. Which totally failed. Why is it ok for Christians to conquer a land but not Muslims?

You think that because Christianity was in the Middle East for centuries before Islam came along that the Muslims were justified? That's hilarious. Christianity isn't something that Europe imposed on the Middle East, yet that did not stop Islam from attacking Europe, and India for that matter, long before the crusades. What happened before Islam was created is also irrelevant to the conflict between Islam and Christianity for the obvious reason that Islam did not exist, but nice try. You can try to spin it however you like, but the fact is that the crusades were a response to Christians being attacked by Muslims in land that they had long lived in before Islam.

Oh and by the way, believers in Allah, as all Allah means is God, would include Christians and Jews. The most it says is the Christians and Jews had to pay tribute, and considering what Christians would do to each other that's pretty freaking enlightened.

You mean a tax? And no, that's not all that it says.

Yes, there are peaceful verses in the Qu'ran... written when Muhammad had no power.

I am aware of what Allah means, but Jews and Christians are considered "people of the book". Now, go re-read the verse.

Here are a couple more to chew on:

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (Qu'ran Surrah 9, Verse 30)

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." (Qu'ran Surrah 5, Verse 51)

[Guest TrueMetis]

If you want to find out, since you seem to admit that not all cultures are equal, go around saying that the culture Canada inherited from Great Britain and Europe is superior to that of immigrants coming to Canada today and see how far you get before you get accused of racism. Can you as easily prove your own arguement? I rest my case.

Why the hell would I say that? A lot of the culture of the Where I live came from Asia, the Mid East and from Canadian First Nations. The only place where British culture is really prevalent is common law.

You think that because Christianity was in the Middle East for centuries before Islam came along that the Muslims were justified? That's hilarious. Christianity isn't something that Europe imposed on the Middle East, yet that did not stop Islam from attacking Europe, and India for that matter, long before the crusades. What happened before Islam was created is also irrelevant to the conflict between Islam and Christianity for the obvious reason that Islam did not exist, but nice try. You can try to spin it however you like, but the fact is that the crusades were a response to Christians being attacked by Muslims in land that they had long lived in before Islam.

You really don't get it do you. At the time conquering other lands was how it worked everyone did it, but the only people who really made it a religious thing was the Christian Europeans and their crusades.

You mean a tax? And no, that's not all that it says.

Yes, there are peaceful verses in the Qu'ran... written when Muhammad had no power.

I am aware of what Allah means, but Jews and Christians are considered "people of the book". Now, go re-read the verse.

Here are a couple more to chew on:

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (Qu'ran Surrah 9, Verse 30)

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." (Qu'ran Surrah 5, Verse 51)

Read a couple of pages of ANY religious text and you will find the same f*cking kind of stuff. Every couple of sentences of the bible is genocide, stone disobedient children, kill gays, etc. What matters is what they actually did. The facts are the Islamic empire gave people who did not believe what they did more rights and freedoms of any empire before them. That's the reason so many scientists from so many different cultures lived in the Islamic empire, that's why it was the scientific hub of the time, and that's why it became the largest empire in existence up until that point.

And you can keep thinking whatever you want but that's where a very large portion of our values came from.

[Borg]

And you can keep thinking whatever you want but that's where a very large portion of our values came from.

And where do yours come from?

Borg

[justme]

Why the hell would I say that?

Because it would be speaking the truth? Wait, silly me, that's not politically correct. You'd rather go along with the false multiculturalism doctrine even though you seemed to admit that not all cultures are equal - kinda like how liberals pretend that they're not liberals.

A lot of the culture of the Where I live came from Asia, the Mid East

A creation of the liberals over the last 40 or so years not Canadian heritage.

You really don't get it do you. At the time conquering other lands was how it worked everyone did it, but the only people who really made it a religious thing was the Christian Europeans and their crusades.

Because I prefer facts over your argument, I don't get it.

Read a couple of pages of ANY religious text and you will find the same f*cking kind of stuff. Every couple of sentences of the bible is genocide, stone disobedient children, kill gays, etc. What matters is what they actually did. The facts are the Islamic empire gave people who did not believe what they did more rights and freedoms of any empire before them. That's the reason so many scientists from so many different cultures lived in the Islamic empire, that's why it was the scientific hub of the time, and that's why it became the largest empire in existence up until that point.

Again, I point out facts, but I'm wrong because you disagree with them.

And you can keep thinking whatever you want but that's where a very large portion of our values came from.

You mean I can continue to choose facts over your opinions/rants? I will, but thanks for playing the "game".

[Guest TrueMetis]

Because it would be speaking the truth? Wait, silly me, that's not politically correct. You'd rather go along with the false multiculturalism doctrine even though you seemed to admit that not all cultures are equal - kinda like how liberals pretend that they're not liberals.

A creation of the liberals over the last 40 or so years not Canadian heritage.

Asians have been here for a hundred years and values like freedom of speech and religion, as well as the scientific method came from the mid east.

Because I prefer facts over your argument, I don't get it.

Again, I point out facts, but I'm wrong because you disagree with them.

You mean I can continue to choose facts over your opinions/rants? I will, but thanks for playing the "game".

Yes what you say are "facts" I get it. Except last time I checked I had a rather large amount of scholars on you side. Just ignore the huge progress made in the Islamic world while Europeans where burning people at the stake as witches.

[Bonam]

Yes what you say are "facts" I get it. Except last time I checked I had a rather large amount of scholars on you side. Just ignore the huge progress made in the Islamic world while Europeans where burning people at the stake as witches.

What matters is now, not ancient history. Yes the Islamic world was one of the world's leading civilizations, for a time. That is no longer the case, and has not been for quite some time. Every time someone tries to justify Muslim atrocities by saying "but Christians were just as bad <insert large number> years ago!" it cracks me up.

Let me guess, you're now gonna reply by citing some few examples that are not quite "ancient history"? The usual killings of abortion doctors retort?

[Guest TrueMetis]

What matters is now, not ancient history. Yes the Islamic world was one of the world's leading civilizations, for a time. That is no longer the case, and has not been for quite some time. Every time someone tries to justify Muslim atrocities by saying "but Christians were just as bad <insert large number> years ago!" it cracks me up.

Let me guess, you're now gonna reply by citing some few examples that are not quite "ancient history"? The usual killings of abortion doctors retort?

Do yourself a favour and read all of the posts I've made and you will realize that's not even close to what I was arguing. What you just said has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. I'm so tired of people assuming that whenever someone starts taking about the ancient Islamic empire that it has anything to do with justifying what their radicals are doing know.

[Bonam]

Do yourself a favour and read all of the posts I've made and you will realize that's not even close to what I was arguing. What you just said has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. I'm so tired of people assuming that whenever someone starts taking about the ancient Islamic empire that it has anything to do with justifying what their radicals are doing know.

Dude you are the one who brought up Europeans burning witches at the stake in your argument, as some kind of foil for the enlightened Muslims of the era. I was pointing out that that is no longer case, the situation has long been reversed. And if you are such a stickler for maintaining the topic of the discussion, you might note that this thread is about Atleo calling for an end to the Indian act, not the ancient Muslim Caliphate.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Dude you are the one who brought up Europeans burning witches at the stake in your argument, as some kind of foil for the enlightened Muslims of the era. I was pointing out that that is no longer case, the situation has long been reversed. And if you are such a stickler for maintaining the topic of the discussion, you might note that this thread is about Atleo calling for an end to the Indian act, not the ancient Muslim Caliphate.

I was comparing the cultures of the time. Not the cultures as they are now which is substantially different. The point of my argument is that much of our culture comes from the culture of the middle east 500-1000 years ago. Hence justme's claim of:

Anyone that tries to pass this crap off as culture that's equal to the culture that Canada inherited from Britain and Europe is speaking out of the wrong orifice.

is crap because we did not inherit our culture solely from Europe, not even close. Then he brought this up.

I'm aware of the nonsense that the politically correct spew, but the reality is that islam spread by persecution, and was stopped in France, and later in Vienna - on September 11th, 1683.

So I pointed out that's how all religions work, and what the Islamic empire did was no different from what any other group did at that time.

Nothing of what I said justifies the actions of the current Islamic radicals.

[Bonam]

is crap because we did not inherit our culture solely from Europe, not even close. Then he brought this up.

Canada's culture is very closely descended from Britain. Our common law, our parliamentary system, our language (save Quebec), our values, etc. That the culture of Britain was itself influenced in the past by other cultures, such as that from the Muslim world (among others), is hardly of relevance.

Nothing of what I said justifies the actions of the current Islamic radicals.

Good.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Bonam

[Guest TrueMetis]

Canada's culture is very closely descended from Britain. Our common law, our parliamentary system, our language (save Quebec), our values, etc. That the culture of Britain was itself influenced in the past by other cultures, such as that from the Muslim world (among others), is hardly of relevance.

It is very relevant, as it shows what allowing cultures to mix accomplishes.

[Bonam]

It is very relevant, as it shows what allowing cultures to mix accomplishes.

It shows that having an advanced culture influence a more primitive one can be beneficial for the primitive one. That is, in your example, some of the more advanced ideas from the Islamic world rubbed off on Europe, eventually helping to launch it into the renaissance.

You have not, however, illustrated the benefits of having an advanced culture diluted by or influenced by a primitive one. What benefit does Canada today get from admitting third-worlders by the millions and embracing their primitive cultures?

[Guest TrueMetis]

It shows that having an advanced culture influence a more primitive one can be beneficial for the primitive one. That is, in your example, some of the more advanced ideas from the Islamic world rubbed off on Europe, eventually helping to launch it into the renaissance.

You have not, however, illustrated the benefits of having an advanced culture diluted by or influenced by a primitive one. What benefit does Canada today get from admitting third-worlders by the millions and embracing their primitive cultures?

I wouldn't know as that's not what's happening in Canada.

[Bonam]

I wouldn't know as that's not what's happening in Canada.

No? How many immigrants do we have from more primitive nations? Do we not embrace their cultures, as per our policy of multiculturalism?

[Guest TrueMetis]

No? How many immigrants do we have from more primitive nations? Do we not embrace their cultures, as per our policy of multiculturalism?

This is from 2001 so it's probably changed a bit. My link it's not exactly an overwhelming amount of immigrants coming from third world countries.