Another man dead under taser

[bloodyminded]

possibly but it avoids more deadly options...we don't know what happened as yet, an officer was attacked, we don't know how badly injured he was, were there weapons involved?...

I personally support the notion of tasers, for this reason. However, the matter is much more complex, and there's a lot to the argument that claims they're being promiscuously overemployed.

The idea that the polcie use tasers to replace other forms of potentially deadly force sounds right, but is actually often a self-indulgent fantasy...well, a lie, actually...spread by police spokespeople. (Who, after all, are by definition paid propagandists, PR specialists, an industry that has not made its mark by offering us simple information and truth.)

The fact is that taser use is often less about public protection than it is about easing the job of the police (a job less dangerous than mythology would have it, by the way). They don't just use tasers where they otherwise would have used sidearms or clubs; they use them where they otherwise would have used no force at all, aside from basic, non-dangerous physical restraint.

And this is, at least, a serious issue worth looking at. Because it is an increase in the police's use of force, not a replacement for other uses of force.

Edited June 26, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Wild Bill]

That is not the reason to enjoy ugliness.

If we could have better law system -- less greedy oriented laws, less people would feel mis-treated, less people would have anger, less people would have to be sent to group homes, less people would have "mental problems", less violence would exits, less chance would tasers be used.

Do you live down here on Earth with the rest of us or do you walk around all day with your head in the clouds?

The world does not run on wishes and dreams. If you aren't willing to deal with people as they are then you will never be able to persuade them to change, even in the slightest!

You are a dreamer, sir! Bless you, dreamers are wonderful people. It's just that they are completely useless at dealing with problems in the real world.

[bloodyminded]

Do you live down here on Earth with the rest of us or do you walk around all day with your head in the clouds?

The world does not run on wishes and dreams. If you aren't willing to deal with people as they are then you will never be able to persuade them to change, even in the slightest!

You are a dreamer, sir! Bless you, dreamers are wonderful people. It's just that they are completely useless at dealing with problems in the real world.

As far as criticisms go, this one is kind of generous and friendly.

I like your style, Wild Bill. I once had a poster tell me that, while I was naive and foolish, he thanked god there were people like me around...and he meant it.

I can take such criticisms with equanimity, even with a bit of warmth.

[Wild Bill]

As far as criticisms go, this one is kind of generous and friendly.

I like your style, Wild Bill. I once had a poster tell me that, while I was naive and foolish, he thanked god there were people like me around...and he meant it.

I can take such criticisms with equanimity, even with a bit of warmth.

Despite being a techie and rather rightwing/libertarian BM, I've also got a LOT of hippy still in me!

[bloodyminded]

Despite being a techie and rather rightwing/libertarian BM, I've also got a LOT of hippy still in me!

Yeah, well, just because the hippies made "peace and love" sound stupid, it doesn't mean they aren't magnificent things in and of themselves.

[Jack Weber]

Get a room!!!!!!

[Wild Bill]

Yeah, well, just because the hippies made "peace and love" sound stupid, it doesn't mean they aren't magnificent things in and of themselves.

Yeah, the hippy movement meant well. We weren't always sure just what the hell we meant but we knew we meant it nicely!

I just refuse to believe that just because I disagree with someone he must automatically be a bad person.

[bloodyminded]

Yeah, the hippy movement meant well. We weren't always sure just what the hell we meant but we knew we meant it nicely!

I just refuse to believe that just because I disagree with someone he must automatically be a bad person.

I know just what you mean. If I thought this were the case, I'd have to think I was wrong for liking so many of these folks.

[Wilber]

The idea that the polcie use tasers to replace other forms of potentially deadly force sounds right, but is actually often a self-indulgent fantasy...well, a lie, actually...spread by police spokespeople. (Who, after all, are by definition paid propagandists, PR specialists, an industry that has not made its mark by offering us simple information and truth.)

Except that the police are the people we expect to protect our society and enforce the laws we make. I doubt there is a police officer willing to volunteer giving up any alternative to the use of lethal force. It's so easy to talk about shooting people when you know that it is not you who might have to do it.

The fact is that taser use is often less about public protection than it is about easing the job of the police (a job less dangerous than mythology would have it, by the way). They don't just use tasers where they otherwise would have used sidearms or clubs; they use them where they otherwise would have used no force at all, aside from basic, non-dangerous physical restraint.

According to who's mythology, yours? Certainly there are jobs that have higher fatality rates than a police officer but none of them involve people who are intentionally trying to do you harm. Most deaths in other occupations are due to mistakes made by the victims. The public never hears about the broken bones, dislocations and other physical abuse that are part of a police officers life apprehending those who do not abide by the rules of behavior the rest of us believe in and expect. Anyhoo, is a police officers job not dangerous enough to suit you or do you think it should be more hazardous than it is?

Edited June 27, 2010 by Wilber

[bjre]

Except that the police are the people we expect to protect our society

Should the guy who was shot dead be considered as one of the people that need to be protected?

and enforce the laws we make.

I just don't know what time the taser related law was legislated, was any of those asked for your opinion on that, will your opinion on that be considered? How many Canadian know that and be asked about that legislation?

[Wilber]

Should the guy who was shot dead be considered as one of the people that need to be protected?

Maybe he was, that's why the more alternatives there are to shooting people the better.

I just don't know what time the taser related law was legislated, was any of those asked for your opinion on that, will your opinion on that be considered? How many Canadian know that and be asked about that legislation?

I think people's opinions are very much being considered and hopefully clear guidlines will be established which will allow the use of a very effective tool which has the potential to save lives, while keeping its abuse to a minimum.

[bjre]

I think people's opinions are very much being considered...

If as you said people's opinions are being considered, why regulations need to be passed "secretly"?

The province has secretly passed an unprecedented regulation that empowers police to arrest anyone near the G20 security zone who refuses to identify themselves or agree to a police search.

A 31-year-old man has already been arrested under the new regulation, which was quietly passed by the provincial cabinet on June 2.

G20 law gives police sweeping powers to arrest people

[bloodyminded]

Except that the police are the people we expect to protect our society and enforce the laws we make. I doubt there is a police officer willing to volunteer giving up any alternative to the use of lethal force. It's so easy to talk about shooting people when you know that it is not you who might have to do it.

So what? How is any of this relevant to my thesis, which was that it quite possible that tasers are being overused?

I wouldn't have known it was such a controversial opinion, were you, Wilbur, not sensitive to the point of delicacy about the matter.

According to who's mythology, yours?

This doesn't even make sense. If you can't read, don't respond.

Certainly there are jobs that have higher fatality rates than a police officer but none of them involve people who are intentionally trying to do you harm.

Of course. That's a different issue. I said it was not one of the most dangerous jobs: this is measured by injury and death. Obviously.

I sure never said it was an easy job.

Interestingly, you have ommitted the relatively high stress rates among police officers, which relates to health problems as well. Why did you omit this? Do you hate the police? Why don't you support the police?

(You see how assinine your remarks are now?)

The public never hears about the broken bones, dislocations and other physical abuse that are part of a police officers life apprehending those who do not abide by the rules of behavior the rest of us believe in and expect. Anyhoo, is a police officers job not dangerous enough to suit you or do you think it should be more hazardous than it is?

Your last question is so stupid that I'm going to generously assume you don't mean it.

What you're actually saying is "Don't criticize authority, because it hurts the feelings of us Commissars."

Edited June 27, 2010 by bloodyminded

[msdogfood]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/828615--man-dies-after-being-tasered-at-group-home-in-collingwood

The question is:

Why Canadian education system can do nothing but just left this kind of man in group homes to spend our tax dollars?

They need to be banned ASAP!!!.

[Wilber]

So what? How is any of this relevant to my thesis, which was that it quite possible that tasers are being overused?

I wouldn't have known it was such a controversial opinion, were you, Wilbur, not sensitive to the point of delicacy about the matter.

I don't dispute the idea that tazers have been misused, sometimes grossly and a lot of police officers will say it themselves. As far as police spokes people are concerned, they are not going to go out of their way to put themselves in a bad light but would you prefer the police gave no information at all because if it comes from them it must be propaganda?

There is a chicken or egg argument here. If police have any tendency to be defensive or see themselves as apart from the rest of society is that their fault or because so many in society put them there? I suspect some of both.

This doesn't even make sense. If you can't read, don't respond.

Mythology was your term, by your definition.

Of course. That's a different issue. I said it was not one of the most dangerous jobs: this is measured by injury and death. Obviously.

I sure never said it was an easy job.

Interestingly, you have ommitted the relatively high stress rates among police officers, which relates to health problems as well. Why did you omit this? Do you hate the police? Why don't you support the police?

It is the issue. The whole idea behind using a tazer is to reduce the possibility of physical injury to both parties.

Certainly having to do societies dirty work and have it judged by others can have a psychological impact on the police which can also impact their personal lives but unless you can tie it to misuse of tazers it is not relevant to this discussion.

Your last question is so stupid that I'm going to generously assume you don't mean it.

No, I meant it. I was curious to know what the danger level would have to be in order for it not to be a myth. Some things cannot be avoided but death and injury rates in any occupation have far more to do with the training, equipment and procedures used than they do with any inherent dangers.

[Mr.Canada]

Well he should have listened to the police. Plain and simple. If he had complied he wouldn't have been tasered. Listen to the police and do what they command or face the consequences.

Same goes for many of these losers who refuse to listen to police then cry foul when they get hurt. Which they wouldn't be if they had listened in the first place. It's this idiots own fault.

[Jack Weber]

Well he should have listened to the police. Plain and simple. If he had complied he wouldn't have been tasered. Listen to the police and do what they command or face the consequences.

Same goes for many of these losers who refuse to listen to police then cry foul when they get hurt. Which they wouldn't be if they had listened in the first place. It's this idiots own fault.

Because authority figures are never wrong,right Caudillo?

Edited June 28, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Mr.Canada]

Because authority figures are never wrong,right Caudillo?

When a police officer gives you an order, you must follow it or else. Out on the street isn't the right place to have that discussion. That's for the courts to decide whether a police officer is right or wrong. In the meantime listen when the police give a command or face the consequences.

[bloodyminded]

I don't dispute the idea that tazers have been misused, sometimes grossly and a lot of police officers will say it themselves.

Then we are not in disagreement.

Because I also said--in the same post from which you quoted me--that I support the use of tasers.

I couldn't have been more clear.

As far as police spokes people are concerned, they are not going to go out of their way to put themselves in a bad light but would you prefer the police gave no information at all because if it comes from them it must be propaganda?

???

No...i'd rather not be lied to at all by the authority figures who are authority figures only because they are our public servants.

There is a chicken or egg argument here. If police have any tendency to be defensive or see themselves as apart from the rest of society is that their fault or because so many in society put them there? I suspect some of both.

I suspect you're right. It's not chicken or egg, but chicken and egg.

Mythology was your term, by your definition.

My term, not my definition: I explicitly was criticizing a mythology that I don't believe in; to which you responded, "Whose mythology? Yours?"

It doesn't make sense.

No, I meant it. I was curious to know what the danger level would have to be in order for it not to be a myth. Some things cannot be avoided but death and injury rates in any occupation have far more to do with the training, equipment and procedures used than they do with any inherent dangers.

Please. You weren't asking me an honest question, but a "when did you stop beating your wife" question:

Anyhoo, is a police officers job not dangerous enough to suit you or do you think it should be more hazardous than it is?

[bjre]

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=2b9b5d88-3c1e-4fb6-9f59-5f3492483c47

Vancouver cops use Taser on teen mom holding 1-month-old baby

A teen who was Tasered by police as she clutched her one-month-old son just wants her baby back. Misha Peterson, 16, said Vancouver police held her down on a bed and shot her with a Taser twice on Monday while she held her one-month-old son, Taige.