Real Atrocities - Up to 2,000 dead in Kyrgyz clashes

[jbg]

Undated but posted June 18, 2010 (link to story)

By Peter Leonard, The Associated Press

OSH, Kyrgyzstan - Kyrgyzstan's interim president said Friday that 2,000 people may have died in the ethnic clashes that have rocked the country's south — many times her government's official estimate — as she made her first visit to a riot-hit city since the unrest erupted.

The deputy head of the provisional government, Azimbek Beknazarov, put the official death toll on both sides at 223 on Thursday, but others said the figure could be significantly higher. The deaths have been due to rampages led mainly by ethnic Kyrgyz against Uzbeks.

"I would increase by 10 times the official data on the number of people killed," Interim President Roza Otunbayeva said, according to her spokesman, Farid Niyazov. She said current figures don't take into account those buried before sundown on the day of death in keeping with Muslim tradition, according to the spokesman.

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Or this story:

Army’s Hand Suspected in Kyrgyzstan (link)

June 16, 2010

Army’s Hand Suspected in Kyrgyzstan

By CLIFFORD J. LEVY

OSH, Kyrgyzstan — As the armored personnel carrier rumbled down the street, men in Kyrgyz military uniforms clinging to its sides, residents of an ethnic Uzbek neighborhood here felt a surge of relief. The peacekeepers, it seemed, had finally arrived.

But then the men in uniforms jumped down and began firing automatic weapons into homes while shouting anti-Uzbek slurs, more than a dozen residents of the neighborhood, Shai-Tubeh, said in interviews on Wednesday. They spoke of the terrifying moments last week when they realized that they were under attack from what appeared to be their own nation’s military. They said the assailants killed several people, wounded many others and set fire to buildings.

“We believed that they had come to protect us,” said Avaz Abdukadyrov, 48. “But instead, they came to kill us.”

Mr. Abdukadyrov and others said one memory of the events last Saturday haunted them: as they fled and their homes burned, the men in uniforms laughed and danced in the street.

In the wake of ethnic riots that broke out last Thursday night and killed hundreds over the weekend here and throughout southern Kyrgyzstan, questions arose about whether the violence was spontaneous — and then increased in the absence of strong local authority — or the work of more organized forces, possibly doing the bidding of Kyrgyzstan’s deposed president, Kurmanbek S. Bakiyev.

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Tell me, oh tell me, NaomiGlover and Myata, where is the weeping for these people? Where is the U.N.? Where is Rachel Corrie?

Why haven't either of you started a thread?

Edited June 18, 2010 by jbg

[Michael Hardner]

Why haven't either of you started a thread?

I don't think it's somebody's duty to criticize all countries evenly, just because they criticize one. However, there is something to suspect about somebody who continuously criticizes our middle-east ally, or for that matter countries that are predominantly associated with one group.

2,000 people... so sad....

If this happened in some countries this would be enough to have us join a war.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Michael Hardner

[Bob]

I wonder if we'll see protests and passionate demonstrations in Istanbul or Beirut, just as we saw over the fauxtilla?

[Remiel]

Tell me, oh tell me, NaomiGlover and Myata, where is the weeping for these people? Where is the U.N.? Where is Rachel Corrie?

Why haven't either of you started a thread?

I find your crocodile tears to be rather disturbing, jbg. Why is it 2,000 people are killed in Kyrgyzstan and your first thought is to make it about Israel and Palestine? The nerve of your opportunism...

[jbg]

I find your crocodile tears to be rather disturbing, jbg. Why is it 2,000 people are killed in Kyrgyzstan and your first thought is to make it about Israel and Palestine? The nerve of your opportunism...

It the shoe fits, wear it.

[Bonam]

I find your crocodile tears to be rather disturbing, jbg. Why is it 2,000 people are killed in Kyrgyzstan and your first thought is to make it about Israel and Palestine? The nerve of your opportunism...

What did he say about Israel or Palestine? Those were nowhere in the post. The topic is about the 2000 people tragically killed in Kyrgyzstan and the curious lack of concern from our board's local human rights activists and proponents of international law.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Bonam

[dre]

The title says "Where is the UN" which would appear to be some sort of assertion that the UN is not interested in these events. I guess the relevant question at this time would be... What planet are you living on, and how is the weather there?!.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35013&Cr=kyrgyz&Cr1=

UN: Already rushing aid to victims

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65H2UR20100618

UN: 1 million people caught up in violence. U.N. appeals for emergency funding.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=102870529

UN: Calling for immediate humanitaian assistance.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=102870529

UN: Says violence was intentionally "orchestrated".

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/flee+Kyrgyzstan+violence/3169154/story.html

UN: 400,000 flee Kyrgyzstan violence

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/14-un-slams-kyrgyzstan-violence-urges-calm-zj-02

UN: Slames Kyrgyzstan violence. Urges calm.

Edited June 18, 2010 by dre

[Remiel]

What did he say about Israel or Palestine? Those were nowhere in the post. The topic is about the 2000 people tragically killed in Kyrgyzstan and the curious lack of concern from our board's local human rights activists and proponents of international law.

And why did he ask about the curious lack? Because they oppose him on Israel/Palestine issues. I mean, come on, Rachel Corrie? How more obvious does he have to get? For as long as I have been a poster here jbg has always posted topics to use in an over-arching meta-debate on that topic.

In any case, looking quickly at the Wikipedia article on the political crisis, it is apparent that I am going to have to do more digging. Ostensibly anti-Uzbek riotting is because of Uzbek police/soldiers allegedly using gunfire to put down a protest in favour of the deposed president a month or more ago. And, as well, Uzbekistan apparently had its troops assembly on the border (though I would imagine it was to prevent spillover). I have yet to see what historical relations between Uzbeks and Kyrgyz are, though it also mentions that in some incidents other ethnicities have been attacked by Kyrgyz supporters of the former president.

Here is the Star's article on it...

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/825373--u-s-envoy-urges-probe-into-kyrgyz-killings?bn=1

[Bob]

The title says "Where is the UN" which would appear to be some sort of assertion that the UN is not interested in these events. I guess the relevant question at this time would be... What planet are you living on, and how is the weather there?!.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35013&Cr=kyrgyz&Cr1=

UN: Already rushing aid to victims

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65H2UR20100618

UN: 1 million people caught up in violence.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=102870529

UN: Calling for immediate humanitaian assistance.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=102870529

UN: Says violence was intentionally "orchestrated".

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/flee+Kyrgyzstan+violence/3169154/story.html

UN: 400,000 flee Kyrgyzstan violence

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/14-un-slams-kyrgyzstan-violence-urges-calm-zj-02

UN: Slames Kyrgyzstan violence. Urges calm.

How many more articles will we find among the websites of the UN, HRW, Amnesty, and major media outlets around the world regarding the fauxtilla than compared to these unfolding events in Kyrgyzstan? Without a doubt the UN will use more of its "intellectual" and "political" resources towards resolving the fauxtilla controversy than these events in Kyrgyzstan. This is jbg's obvious point which you're ignoring.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Bob

[jbg]

The title says "Where is the UN" which would appear to be some sort of assertion that the UN is not interested in these events. I guess the relevant question at this time would be... What planet are you living on, and how is the weather there?!.

Any call for Security Counsel resolution?

[dre]

How many more articles will we find among the websites of the UN, HRW, Amnesty, and major media outlets around the world regarding the fauxtilla than compared to these unfolding events in Kyrgyzstan? Without a doubt the UN will use more of its "intellectual" and "political" resources towards resolving the fauxtilla controversy than these events in Kyrgyzstan. This is jbg's obvious point which you're ignoring.

My guess is that this will dominate the headlines for a while and the UN will be all over it. Its a very serious situation with potential to get much worse.

Without a doubt the UN will use more of its "intellectual" and "political" resources towards resolving the fauxtilla controversy than these events in Kyrgyzstan.

Youve fallen for your own false talking points, which assert that the UNs primary purpose is anti-semitism and that it doesnt nothing else in the world. As funny and as Ironic as you think that is, why dont let this ONE thread be about the topic at hand, and take your insane ramblings to one of the dozens of middle east threads?

[Bob]

The point remains - the UN is a vehicle through which irrelevant countries gain increased prominence. It's a forum in which those who have no credibility on any issues regarding human rights (95% of the countries of the world) are given a platform and symbolic credibility which they shouldn't have. This is evidenced by the UN's lopsided focus on Israeli-Arab conflict (virtually always coming down on an anti-Israel position), while paying much less attention to real problems around the world. Of course this is related to the prominence of the global Muslim community, about one and half billion of them and about twenty states which are virtually exclusively Islamic (and anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and anti-semitic), as well as global ignorance of the Israeli-Arab conflict and pervasive anti-semitism. That's the point. That's the reality. Whether or not you want to recognize this is unimportant.

[Bob]

One more point, this story most certainly WILL NOT dominate any headlines for even a day. It certainly will not get even a tiny fraction of the airtime and attention within the media of the fauxtilla controversy.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Bob

[Bonam]

And why did he ask about the curious lack? Because they oppose him on Israel/Palestine issues. I mean, come on, Rachel Corrie? How more obvious does he have to get? For as long as I have been a poster here jbg has always posted topics to use in an over-arching meta-debate on that topic.

Perhaps that was his motivation, but that does not negate the fact that the original post made no mention of Israel or Palestine, and asked a legitimate question.

In any case, looking quickly at the Wikipedia article on the political crisis, it is apparent that I am going to have to do more digging.

An excellent point. Most people probably could not even name the two sides of the conflict in Kyrgyzstan, or the main reason behind it. And yet, 2000 people are already dead, and the violence may well only be beginning. In contrast, when a certain nation carried out a military campaign which resulted in the deaths of approximately 1000 people in recent years, it was all over the news; probably the vast majority of Canadians and Americans could not have helped hearing about it repeatedly. The media coverage and degree of concern and condemnation in that incident was omnipresent.

And yet this Kyrgyz conflict will receive much less coverage and very likely be forgotten (in the West) within days of the violence being over, despite much higher casualties.

Whatever one's motivation, it is impossible to deny the difference in media coverage and international level of concern and outrage between this conflict and certain others. Are the lives of the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks worth any less?

[Bob]

Muslims behaving violently and murdering one another? Are we supposed to be surprised?

[dre]

The hilarious Irony here is that this thread although being about a very serious and relevant topic, was posted for the purpose of taking a shot at people who post here, and at the UN for ignoring events such as this and focusing on Israel and Middle east.

And then the first thing you guys do is derail the thread into a rant about you guessed it: The UN, and Israel.

Its fuckin surreal!

[Guest TrueMetis]

Muslims behaving violently and murdering one another? Are we supposed to be surprised?

You are probably one of the most racist people I've ever met, and yet you call other racist.

[dre]

One interesting aspect in play here is that this is the first test for the CSTO which is seen as Moscows answer to Nato's eastern expansionism... And the country is kinda stuck in the middle as far where its loyalties like (between east and west). Its also one of the few countries that hosts both US and Russian military bases.

Otunbayeva is saying the violence was instigated by forces loyal to ousted President Kurmanbek Bakiyev with the purpose of disrupting a June 27 referendum on a new Kyrgyz constitution, and has called for the CSTO to intervene. But Bakiyev who was ousted by a mob of angry protesters has claimed that the Russians were behind his removal from office.

Do we have a power struggle here between Nato and the CSTO, and between the US and Russia?

[Remiel]

And yet this Kyrgyz conflict will receive much less coverage and very likely be forgotten (in the West) within days of the violence being over, despite much higher casualties.

Whatever one's motivation, it is impossible to deny the difference in media coverage and international level of concern and outrage between this conflict and certain others. Are the lives of the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks worth any less?

You an I both know that newspaper sales to not correlate to the absolute measurement of horrorificness. Neither does action, by anyone. Consider the proportion of any response to what was carried out in the name of 9/11, if you want to go there.

But, all of these are sidetopics... If we really want to talk about it, than we should forget that other stuff for the time being. You know, Kyrgyzstan crisis qua Kyrgyzstan crisis. That is what I would prefer.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Remiel

[Bonam]

One interesting aspect in play here is that this is the first test for the CSTO which is seen as Moscows answer to Nato's eastern expansionism... And the country is kinda stuck in the middle as far where its loyalties like (between east and west). Its also one of the few countries that hosts both US and Russian military bases.

Otunbayeva is saying the violence was instigated by forces loyal to ousted President Kurmanbek Bakiyev with the purpose of disrupting a June 27 referendum on a new Kyrgyz constitution, and has called for the CSTO to intervene. But Bakiyev who was ousted by a mob of angry protesters has claimed that the Russians were behind his removal from office.

Do we have a power struggle here between Nato and the CSTO, and between the US and Russia?

It's possible, but does not seem that likely in this particular case because Kyrgyzstan has repeatedly asked Russia to send in its soldiers to intervene in the conflict. If Russia was interested in asserting greater influence in this area, I would think they would have jumped at such an invitation. It is rare that a foreign country specifically asks you to send your troops into it. However, Russian president Medvedev turned down the request, saying he did not think it was appropriate for Russia to intervene and that this was an internal Kyrgyz matter.

[Bob]

You are probably one of the most racist people I've ever met, and yet you call other racist.

Answer this question - are all cultures, communities, religions, societies, etc equal?

[Remiel]

The hilarious Irony here is that this thread although being about a very serious and relevant topic, was posted for the purpose of taking a shot at people who post here, and at the UN for ignoring events such as this and focusing on Israel and Middle east.

And then the first thing you guys do is derail the thread into a rant about you guessed it: The UN, and Israel.

Its fuckin surreal!

Hold on a moment, dre. I apologize for exposing jbg's intent when we should be talking about the content at hand, but I am hoping that after what was hopefully a brief sidestep we can in fact move back to the topic and forget that other crap.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Remiel

[dre]

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/Clinton-Cautious-on-Blame-for-Kyrgyz-Violence-96673044.html

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has reaffirmed U.S. support for Kyrgyzstan's interim government while urging caution in assigning blame for the ethnic violence that has swept the central Asian state. Clinton discussed the Kyrgyz situation and Afghanistan Friday with Danish Foreign Minister Lene Espersen.

Secretary Clinton says charges that the violence has been instigated by followers of ousted Kyrgyz leader Kurmanbek Bakiyev, and that some Kyrgyz security forces are taking part in it, have to be taken seriously.

But she says pending such a determination, the international focus should be on supporting the interim authorities in Bishkek and getting humanitarian assistance to those displaced by the violence, including ethnic Uzbeks taking refuge in Uzbekistan.

This would SEEM to suggest the answer to the question I asked before is no.

[dre]

Hold on a moment, dre. I apologize for exposing jbg's intent when we should be talking about the content at hand, but I am hoping that after what was hopefully a brief sidestep we can in fact move back to the topic and forget that other crap.

No sweat Rem. All my posts in this thread will be on topic from now on. Promise!

[Remiel]

This would SEEM to suggest the answer to the question I asked before is no.

Especially since ethnic Russians are among those who have been target and killed in one of the earlier incidents, I believe.