A Modest Proposal for Mideast Peace for Land

[bloodyminded]

Unfortunately the problem is that Jordan doesn't want the West Bank and Egypt doesn't want Gaza. Why would these states, which have achieved relative peace and order within themselves, want to grant citizenship to millions of destitute savages, with thousands and thousands of terrorists among them?

The Palestinians are all a bunch of "savages." Gotcha.

[jbg]

Unfortunately the problem is that Jordan doesn't want the West Bank and Egypt doesn't want Gaza. Why would these states, which have achieved relative peace and order within themselves, want to grant citizenship to millions of destitute savages, with thousands and thousands of terrorists among them? No one wants the Palestinians or their territories, not Jordan, not Egypt, and certainly not Israel. Unfortunately for them, they will sooner or later have to be responsible for themselves, even if the result is one of the world's worst examples of a failed state.

The Palestinians are all a bunch of "savages." Gotcha.

Ask the Egyptian and Jordanian governments, not Bonam, that particular question.

[bloodyminded]

Ask the Egyptian and Jordanian governments, not Bonam, that particular question.

It was Bonam's remark. He called them savages. Neither Jordan nor Egypt are responsible for Bonam's opinion on the subhumans that so exercise his moral righteousness.

[jbg]

It was Bonam's remark. He called them savages. Neither Jordan nor Egypt are responsible for Bonam's opinion on the subhumans that so exercise his moral righteousness.

My obvious point is that neither Egypt, Jordan nor Israel are willing to govern that particular group of people. Speaks volumes.

[bloodyminded]

My obvious point is that neither Egypt, Jordan nor Israel are willing to govern that particular group of people. Speaks volumes.

Look, we can choose to think of these human beings as "savages," or not. The political wilderness in which they find themselves is not the result of some innate savagery.

I object to the fact that some people can't even say the word "Palestinians" without it sounding as if it's boiling with maggots.

[jbg]

Look, we can choose to think of these human beings as "savages," or not. The political wilderness in which they find themselves is not the result of some innate savagery.

I object to the fact that some people can't even say the word "Palestinians" without it sounding as if it's boiling with maggots.

The term "Palestinians" is used to differentiate the inhabitants of Gaza, West Bank and the Israeli Arabs in order to further salami-slice Israel until none of Israel is legitimately Jewish. In 1921 Transjordan was hived off the Palestine Mandate in order to create an "Arab" state. The mistake was doing this before there was any agreement that the separation of Transjordan was in satisfaction of Arab territorial demands.

The problem I have with legitimizing a "Palestinian" identity is that even as we write, Gaza's government is not agreeing to any initiatives on peace by the Palestinian Authority, as limited as those are. Are we next going to be faced with recognizing a great historical legacy of Gazans? This is absurd.

[naomiglover]

My obvious point is that neither Egypt, Jordan nor Israel are willing to govern that particular group of people. Speaks volumes.

There are already a growing number of Palestinian refugees in other countries. Are you calling for a full on ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land?

Here are the number of refugees, as according to Wikipedia:

# Jordan 1,827,877 refugees

# Gaza 986,034 refugees

# West Bank 699,817 refugees

# Syria 432,048 refugees

# Lebanon 404,170 refugees

# Saudi Arabia 240,000 refugees

# Egypt 70,245 refugees

[jbg]

There are already a growing number of Palestinian refugees in other countries. Are you calling for a full on ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land?

If the "Palestinians" don't stop their war, they do indeed risk the consequences of war; death or expulsion.

[naomiglover]

If the "Palestinians" don't stop their war, they do indeed risk the consequences of war; death or expulsion.

Your perspective is very skewed. How exactly are the Palestinians continuing their war?

Is resisting the occupation an act of war?

Why do you put Palestinians in quotation? Is this another attempt by you to say that there is no such thing as a Palestinian? Why don't you leave the revisionism to DogOnPorch and instead have an honest debate.

[Argus]

There are already a growing number of Palestinian refugees in other countries. Are you calling for a full on ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land?

Here are the number of refugees, as according to Wikipedia:

# Jordan 1,827,877 refugees

# Gaza 986,034 refugees

# West Bank 699,817 refugees

# Syria 432,048 refugees

# Lebanon 404,170 refugees

# Saudi Arabia 240,000 refugees

# Egypt 70,245 refugees

Are you aware that most of those "refugees" in surrounding countries were actually born in those countries? In many cases their parents were born there, too. But those countries, despite having the exact same cultural, linguistic, ethnic and religious makeup as the "Palestinians" have refused to give them citizenship.

[jbg]

Is resisting the occupation an act of war?

When that occupation is the result of a previous failed war, yes.

Why do you put Palestinians in quotation? Is this another attempt by you to say that there is no such thing as a Palestinian? Why don't you leave the revisionism to DogOnPorch and instead have an honest debate.

They are Arabs. They speak Arabic, have the same culture as the Arabs, and have never had political independence. Where was the request for "Palestinian" independence between May 14, 1948 and June 6, 1967?

[dre]

When that occupation is the result of a previous failed war, yes.

They are Arabs. They speak Arabic, have the same culture as the Arabs, and have never had political independence. Where was the request for "Palestinian" independence between May 14, 1948 and June 6, 1967?

When that occupation is the result of a previous failed war, yes.

No sorry thats fantasy. The people living in the west bank today had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Egypts decision to expell UNEF from the Sinai mass troops and tanks on the Israel border and ban Israeli ships from the Straights of Tiran, or Israels decision to launch a first strike in reaction to these events.

Everyone living under military occupation has the right to resist, end of story. Palestinians just suck at it.

[jbg]

No sorry thats fantasy. The people living in the west bank today had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Egypts decision to expell UNEF from the Sinai mass troops and tanks on the Israel border and ban Israeli ships from the Straights of Tiran, or Israels decision to launch a first strike in reaction to these events.

The people in all of the 1967 conmbatant states had something to do with allowing their countries to go to war.

Everyone living under military occupation has the right to resist, end of story. Palestinians just suck at it.

If that's true the power conducting the occupation, after a bona fide military victory, has the right to combat the resistance.

[naomiglover]

Are you aware that most of those "refugees" in surrounding countries were actually born in those countries? In many cases their parents were born there, too. But those countries, despite having the exact same cultural, linguistic, ethnic and religious makeup as the "Palestinians" have refused to give them citizenship.

So what? They are defined as refugees in every sense of the word.

The horrible conditions that many of these Palestinians live in, aside, if they are given citizenship in those countries, they would lose their status and their goal of wanting to return to their land. The Palestinians and the Arab League know this and accept it.

So anyway, this piece of fact about refugees already living in the neighbouring countries killed jbg's last argument, didn't it?

jbg usually prefers not to respond to facts. So I will not hold my breath and wait for him to acknowledge his error.

[jbg]

The horrible conditions that many of these Palestinians live in, aside, if they are given citizenship in those countries, they would lose their status and their goal of wanting to return to their land. The Palestinians and the Arab League know this and accept it.

That would seem like a good thing. They would get improved living conditions, improved status, maybe even get education for their children and real work. I guess from your point of view that's a bad thing since they wouldn't be fodder for continued unrestrained violence.

So anyway, this piece of fact about refugees already living in the neighbouring countries killed jbg's last argument, didn't it?

Not really. You killed your own argument by stating that it would be a bad thing for them to seek to improve their lot in life.

jbg usually prefers not to respond to facts. So I will not hold my breath and wait for him to acknowledge his error.

I do respond to facts. I am not wrong on this one.

[bloodyminded]

That would seem like a good thing. They would get improved living conditions, improved status, maybe even get education for their children and real work. I guess from your point of view that's a bad thing since they wouldn't be fodder for continued unrestrained violence.

Not really. You killed your own argument by stating that it would be a bad thing for them to seek to improve their lot in life.

I do respond to facts. I am not wrong on this one.

You refuse to even argue against the "savages" remark; further, you call the term "Palestinian" into question, preferring "Arab"..so, fine then: you think Arabs are "savages"?

[jbg]

You refuse to even argue against the "savages" remark; further, you call the term "Palestinian" into question, preferring "Arab"..so, fine then: you think Arabs are "savages"?

No.

Those are not my words and I won't defend them. I don't use those terms.

[bloodyminded]

No.

Those are not my words and I won't defend them. I don't use those terms.

Then don't defend bigots like Bonam when they ue such words...and you were actively defending him...to the point where you said I should be blaming Jordan and Egypt for Bonam's remark. (?????? Why? I dunno.....)

[jbg]

Then don't defend bigots like Bonam when they ue such words...and you were actively defending him...to the point where you said I should be blaming Jordan and Egypt for Bonam's remark. (?????? Why? I dunno.....)

I think that bigotry is the belief that all or almost all of the members of a group share a certain negative (or positive) characteristic. I believe that most Gazans are decent people. Where I agree with Bonam and the like is that their society is organized in such a way as to encourage sytematic acts of savagery, such that even other Arab governments want no part of them. In Gaza violent people aren't cranks; they're leaders. This is true even though most, I'm quite sure, are down to earth, decent, even loving people.

[dre]

I think that bigotry is the belief that all or almost all of the members of a group share a certain negative (or positive) characteristic. I believe that most Gazans are decent people. Where I agree with Bonam and the like is that their society is organized in such a way as to encourage sytematic acts of savagery, such that even other Arab governments want no part of them. In Gaza violent people aren't cranks; they're leaders. This is true even though most, I'm quite sure, are down to earth, decent, even loving people.

Well no duh. Being the subject of a brutal military occupation spanning decades doesnt exactly make people act peacefull.

[Bonam]

I think that bigotry is the belief that all or almost all of the members of a group share a certain negative (or positive) characteristic. I believe that most Gazans are decent people. Where I agree with Bonam and the like is that their society is organized in such a way as to encourage sytematic acts of savagery, such that even other Arab governments want no part of them. In Gaza violent people aren't cranks; they're leaders. This is true even though most, I'm quite sure, are down to earth, decent, even loving people.

Indeed, I did not mean to imply that every Gazan is literally a savage, but rather that a nation taking control of the area would necessarily be subjected to a lot of savagery. As has been mentioned, the extent to which even their fellow Arab countries have ostracized the Palestinians, not wanting to deal with them, speaks volumes.

[naomiglover]

Drive people out of most of their land. Continue to nibble at the borders and annex what little land they have left. Create horrible and inhuman conditions. Kill their people, demolish their homes and ruin their lives. Why do you question their animosity towards us?

[Bonam]

Drive people out of most of their land.

Only after they attack you, repeatedly.

Continue to nibble at the borders and annex what little land they have left.

By nobbling at borders and annexing land you mean completely pulling out of Gaza?

Create horrible and inhuman conditions.

Inhuman conditions? Most Palestinians have electrity, running water, many have TV and internet, cell phones, etc. If you want to see inhuman conditions look at Africa. Oh and nothing stops them from working to improve their own conditions rather than sitting around like welfare bums.

Why do you question their animosity towards us?

I don't. Their "animosity" is an obvious fact. Which is why defensive measures, such as the blockade, are necessary.

[williat]

Only after they attack you, repeatedly.

After being bombed/occupied...damn those Palestinians and their rocket attacks, give me a break they hardly ever hit anything...I get the idea that they are firing rockets at you and I've had this argument with a couple of people on here about the use of force so I'll try to avoid that topic as best I can but honestly you treat people like shit (the Palestinians) what the hell do you expect them to do.

By nobbling at borders and annexing land you mean completely pulling out of Gaza?

I'm pretty sure Jordan and Israel are both carved out of previous Palestinan land. You are technically right to some degree I suppose with completely pulling out of Gaza.

Inhuman conditions? Most Palestinians have electrity, running water, many have TV and internet, cell phones, etc. If you want to see inhuman conditions look at Africa. Oh and nothing stops them from working to improve their own conditions rather than sitting around like welfare bums.

I've been to the middle east...you really should never make comments when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This should read: "Some Palestinians have electrity, running water, many have TV and internet, cell phones, etc. If you want to see inhuman conditions look at Africa.". Although I wasn't in Gaza (so I have no clue what its like there) but judging by what I saw I'm willing to bet it can't be any better. I'll give you that some Palestinians have these luxuries, plus someone has already mentioned the refugees...I'm willing to bet that the refugee camps don't have TV or internet. I'll give you that Africa is far worse off then Palestine in the grand scheme of things, but just because someone is worse off doesn't make it right I think you'll agree.

I don't. Their "animosity" is an obvious fact. Which is why defensive measures, such as the blockade, are necessary.

I'm not saying some form of blockade isn't necessary so I agree with you here, stopping weapons from entering Palestine is in Israel's best interest and I understand and accept this. I mean I think its nuts that in most of these countries they get 1 AK47 per household (I doubt its like that in Palestine), I mean call it culture or tradition or a means of living but an AK47...really? I mean we're always discussing safety/security in the area but its hard to do any form of good when weapons are so easy to come by. When I was in the middle east area (did a bit of travelling around) you can usually just hit a local market and buy weapons most of the time (or at least find out where to buy them). I honestly have no problem with the blockade, Israel has their right to safety just as anyone does, therefore why not just let these ships (the Turkish ones and the Irish one) stop in an Israeli port, let them check it out if its all good and no weapons let them through. I mean people can argue all day that this shouldn't be the case but honestly in the grand scheme of things who cares, Israel can go to sleep knowing that weapons aren't being brought in on these ships and Gaza will receive its aid, christ its really not that difficult.

[bloodyminded]

I think that bigotry is the belief that all or almost all of the members of a group share a certain negative (or positive) characteristic. I believe that most Gazans are decent people. Where I agree with Bonam and the like is that their society is organized in such a way as to encourage sytematic acts of savagery

You don't agree with Bonam, because this wasn't his point.

In Gaza violent people aren't cranks; they're leaders. This is true even though most, I'm quite sure, are down to earth, decent, even loving people.

Certainly.