'Current Knesset is the most racist in Israeli history'

[bloodyminded]

Can anyone become a Zionist or is that exclusive to those of the Jewish faith. Like if a Palestinian decided that he supported Israel could he be called a Zionist?

Well, there are Christian Zionists.

Of course, they're drooling lunatics, so it might not be a great example.

[Pliny]

Well, there are Christian Zionists.

Of course, they're drooling lunatics, so it might not be a great example.

Do you think they would like to see all the Jews go to Israel?

Edited March 28, 2010 by Pliny

[Pliny]

I am not in agreement with many of the broad opinions I've seen Naomi Klein express, whether it be No Logo, The Shock Doctrine, or her appearances in documentaries like "The Corporation". She seems way too left-wing to me, anti-corporatist, anti-identity, blah blah blah. She doesn't strike me as an honest or scholarly observer.

I agree. Far too left-wing. Would make a great Mother.

WE in Canada celebrate diversity and foster it. We even demand cultural identity be conserved. Somehow it gets lost to the lib left that the preservation of cultural identity may take some heavy artillery in places other than Canada.

I don't know, maybe they feel if there is any chance of a conflict then cultural identity is not that important.

All I know is that chanting "Death to America" or "Israel must be wiped off the map" is not conducive to friendly relations.

Incidently, I don't like Obama's recent trashing of American-Israeli relations.

Does naomiglover know of the treatment of semitic Jews by Ashkenazi Jews in Israel?

[bloodyminded]

Do you think they would like to see all the Jews go to Israel?

To my knowledge, that is their primary wish, their heart's desire. It has nothing to do with some love of the Jewish people (though they keep saying it is); it's their wish for End-Times theology to play itself out: Armageddon will occur once Israelites have attained "all of Israel" (ie the expansionist dreams that outgun even the most fanatical Jewish settler). After this, the Chosen (who are fundamentalist Christians only, Jews need not apply) will flit off to heaven..bodies and all! Cool! Everyone else--including, of course, the Jews--will suffer awful torments.

Evidently, God can't do this alone: he needs Western Christians to help his mass-murderous plans along.

The Christian Zionists really get off on this type of violent religious pornography.

Edited March 28, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

To my knowledge, that is their primary wish, their heart's desire. It has nothing to do with some love of the Jewish people (though they keep saying it is); it's their wish for End-Times theology to play itself out: Armageddon will occur once Israelites have attained "all of Israel" (ie the expansionist dreams that outgun even the most fanatical Jewish settler). After this, the Chosen (who are fundamentalist Christians only, Jews need not apply) will flit off to heaven..bodies and all! Cool! Everyone else--including, of course, the Jews--will suffer awful torments.

Evidently, God can't do this alone: he needs Western Christians to help his mass-murderous plans along.

The Christian Zionists really get off on this type of violent religious pornography.

This description fits only a handful of fanatics. In reality, a Christian Zionist is any individual whose religion is nominally some branch of Christianity and who supports the existence of Israel.

[bloodyminded]

This description fits only a handful of fanatics. In reality, a Christian Zionist is any individual whose religion is nominally some branch of Christianity and who supports the existence of Israel.

Not so. Those you describe here can be Christians, and might even consider themselves "Zionists" (though since few self-apply the term, it simply doesn't hold). "Christian Zionism" usually (not for "a handful of fanatics") denotes the Apocalyptic movements.

Edited March 28, 2010 by bloodyminded

[jbg]

How is the human rights group anti-Israeli?

Naomi,where are the human rights groups with this mess(link).

[naomiglover]

Naomi,where are the human rights groups with this mess(link).

Instead of rushing to use tragedies around the world to excuse Israel, you should look into what the story is about so you wouldn't look like an idiot:

Human Rights Watch, working with local organisations, has verified 321 deaths - but other activists have given far higher estimates.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8592142.stm

[naomiglover]

Naomi's problem, in my opinion, is that she considers all Zionists to be of the same ilk as those who have, in their zealotry, committed such atrocities and concludes that supporting the cause of Zionism is in itself an atrocity.

I must give my opinion of naomiglovers stance. Unfortunately, She does not identify herself except in vagaries of being for peace, understanding and tolerance, essentially hiding herself among the human race as a collective body.

Any ideology or movement that accepts the sacrificing of people's rights for the sake of the movement is wrong. The same generalization can also be applied to other ideologies and movements. Just because there were nice people who followed and accepted Nazism, it doesn't mean we can't apply a sweeping generalization on Nazism.

How am I hiding myself? Why do you have a problem with wanting the world to follow international law and human rights?

[Rue]

The Israeli government passed at least 21 bills aimed at discriminating against the country's Arab citizens making the current Knesset as being the most racist Israeli parliament since the country's founding, according to a report released Sunday by civil rights groups.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1157857.html

Zionism is racism.

I am aware that a favourite tactic of those who want to criticize Israeli policies is to quote Haaretz articles that criticize Israeli policies but ignore the ones that say positive things about Israel .

In this case the report you talk of needs to be read to understand its context. The report talks of a lot of bills THAT WERE NEVER PASSED.

That said it is not my intent to defend bills that are passed in the knesset that discriminate against Arab Israelis. I and many Zionists would arue zionism is democractic and was never intended to discriminate against non Jews within a Jewish nation-it sees the state organ as vital to protecting Jewish identity but not to be used in a manner that unecessarily discriminates against non Jews and I like most Zionists (the majority) criticize Israeli policies when they go too far or run counter to basic fundamental principles of human rights and tolerance and I would be the first to concede as a supporter of Israel some of the bills you mention discriminate unecessarily and unfairly.

There is no doubt there is an element in the knesset of right wingers some of whom are out and out racist against Arab Israelis otherwise who are not motivated by hatred but the fear of Arab Israelis becoming the majority population within Israeli in the next 40 years and seeking to preserve Jewish identity no different then what you see European nations doing faced with rising Muslim populations or say the U.S. when it stresses American identity over any other identity.

There is a double standard with certain Israeli critics who single out Israel for trying to preserve its Jewish identity while looking the other way when other nations do the exact same thing-its the same double standard that ignores the fact that even with the discriminatory bills we are talking about-they are not even close to the dhimmitude and institutionalize discrimination against Jews and other non Muslims in Muslim countries.

I would Naomi take you more seriously if you criticized equally the discriminatory laws of France, Canada, the U.S., Syria, Iran, and so on.

I would like to point out one further thing. To generalize and say the views of a minority of right wingers in the Knesset represents the entrie Knesset is not true. The Likud for example only has 28 seats or something like that-hardly a majority and it needs to put together a minority coalition to survive.

Because Israel uses a system of perportional (did I spell that ryt?) representation similiar to Italy's system, fringe groups, some very extreme and anti Israel and anti-semitic and some anti-Arab are able to get elected. The Shas Party is for me a party I find very troublesome and were responsible for orchestrating the timing of an announcement to embarass the visit if VP Joe Biden.

Foreign Minister Lieberman's party is also home to some very racist members. Myself I find Lieberman to be an ignorant racist thug.

However they do not reflect the majority of the knesset. The majority of the knesset are middle of the road moderates sitting on the sidelines as coalitions, fragile ones at that are hobbled together to achieve a majority of seats to rule.

In the Likud party, Benny Begin the son of former Prime Minister Menachem Begin sits waiting to dethrone Benjamin Netahnyahu and is against a Palestinian state on the West Bank.

Netanyahu to survive must engage in bluster, bravado and tough guy talk but when the doors shut out of camera range you and I have no real idea what his views are and what games he has to play to try achieve them.

The Kadima Party led by Tippi Levni which I openly admit support for and a blatant bias for, is a party very closely aligned to the views of both Senator McCain and Joe Biden who was active on the Foreign Relations Committee and make no mistake Kadima is the party of choice for both Republicans and Democrats while the right wing of the US Republican party and in particular its Christian Zionist supporters prefer Netanyahu.

The right wing members of Netanyahu's coalition saw Biden's visit as a deliberate attempt to boost Tippi Lenvi's positions so they spit back at what they perceived was internal interference.

The bottom line remains however that the majority of the knesset and the majority of Israelis are pro American, and want a two state solution.

Criticizing discriminatory legislation is legitimate, but all I ask is we look at the full context, not to condone it but to understand it is part of a greater constellation of issues and it does not happen in a vacum-much of it is a historic and on-going response and reaction to the Palestinian Authority's refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and/or distance itself from certain extremist elements within its own party. The Palestinian Authority has its full share of extremists as well.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Rue