An Interesting Dilemna for Israel

[Argus]

They're called the Haredim, or the Ultra Orthodox Jews. At one point they were a small minority, but no longer. They are growing three times faster than the rest of the population. The now represent 10% of all draft age Israelis, and within ten years that will be 25%

But they are exempt from military service.

BBC

That doesn't mean they're not militant, however. They're quite militant about almost everything. They're militant about mobbing places which dare to operate on the sabbath, for example, and stoning cars or buses which drive on the sabbath. They're militant about how women dress and behave. And they're militant about Palestinians. Unlike the more secular Jews of Israel the Haredim vote in great numbers, and vote for the most extreme politicians.

Oh, and for the most part, they don't work. More than two thirds have no paying job. They get welfare and visit food banks and other charities instead.

The question has to be asked, then, as their numbers grow, how can Israel survive with such a large, militant and useless population of cultists leeching off the secular body of the state? For that matter, how much should people who contribute nothing to the state be able to control the state? It strikes me as odd that a community which won't join the mlitary votes for politicians who are defiantly in favour of the most hard line positions with the Arabs.

My own belief is they should not be permitted to vote at all. But i doubt Israel will go that way.

[Oleg Bach]

JEWS that still have a contract with God should be exempt from military service - because they are real Jews - Secularist Jews should be sacraficed for the cause. Just like true God believing Muslims should be excempt from terrorist service and only the infidels who hunger for virgin sex should be sent packing with their under wear pack full of boom boom.

[Bugs]

JEWS that still have a contract with God should be exempt from military service - because they are real Jews - Secularist Jews should be sacraficed for the cause. Just like true God believing Muslims should be excempt from terrorist service and only the infidels who hunger for virgin sex should be sent packing with their under wear pack full of boom boom.

Why? The Bible is full of great Jewish warriors and their stories. The problem is so few atheists have read the Bible, so they don't have a clue what it's about -- particularly the Old Testament. But I don't see what there would be about being a 'real Jew' that should exempt you from defending your homeland.

There's this idea afoot in the land that being religious makes you a pushover. Or ought to. That's a misunderstanding. Turning the other cheek is a tactic to prevail. Not all tactics work in all situations, but these guys walk around the settlements with AK-47s. Remember the devout dude that shot up the Mosque at Temple Mount?

Israel gives its ultra-orthodox a raft of special privileges, and yet, the Orthodox are the knobbiest when it comes to compromises. There are all kinds of Orthodox, of course, (illustrating a kind of heterodoxy) but in general, the Orthodox feel that Biblical prophesies are being fulfilled, and that Israel needs to get all of its old territory back ... whatever it was (now that Canaan isn't on the map) in whatever year, BC ... for the prophesy to be fulfilled. (Which means Man is actually doing something to make sure God's prophesy comes true ... oh, never mind!)

Face it, they're as bad (or good) as the worst Moslems.

[eyeball]

Why? The Bible is full of great Jewish warriors and their stories. The problem is so few atheists have read the Bible, so they don't have a clue what it's about -- particularly the Old Testament.

I've tried but have never been able to get past the first few pages. Is there a plain English reader's digest version?

[Rue]

I've tried but have never been able to get past the first few pages. Is there a plain English reader's digest version?

I feel the same way after the first sentence of an Oleg Bach post.

[naomiglover]

These people will be responsible for keeping zionism alive for a few more years and then they'll also be responsible for the collapse of it.

[jbg]

They're called the Haredim, or the Ultra Orthodox Jews. At one point they were a small minority, but no longer. They are growing three times faster than the rest of the population. The now represent 10% of all draft age Israelis, and within ten years that will be 25%

But they are exempt from military service.

**************

The question has to be asked, then, as their numbers grow, how can Israel survive with such a large, militant and useless population of cultists leeching off the secular body of the state? For that matter, how much should people who contribute nothing to the state be able to control the state? It strikes me as odd that a community which won't join the mlitary votes for politicians who are defiantly in favour of the most hard line positions with the Arabs.

My own belief is they should not be permitted to vote at all. But i doubt Israel will go that way.

This is the same problem that Europe is having with its South Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants.

When one runs a cradle to grave welfare state, you wind up attracting useless people and incentivizing counterproductive behavior and beliefs. Force people to work and they become more pragmatic and of course productive.

[naomiglover]

This is the same problem that Europe is having with its South Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants.

When one runs a cradle to grave welfare state, you wind up attracting useless people and incentivizing counterproductive behavior and beliefs. Force people to work and they become more pragmatic and of course productive.

You can take a simplistic and ignorant viewpoint that jbg seems to have or you can look at research done to show correllation between immigrants and welfare in Europe: http://www.migrantsingreece.org/files/RESOURCE_17.pdf

[bloodyminded]

They're called the Haredim, or the Ultra Orthodox Jews. At one point they were a small minority, but no longer. They are growing three times faster than the rest of the population. The now represent 10% of all draft age Israelis, and within ten years that will be 25%

But they are exempt from military service.

BBC

That doesn't mean they're not militant, however. They're quite militant about almost everything. They're militant about mobbing places which dare to operate on the sabbath, for example, and stoning cars or buses which drive on the sabbath. They're militant about how women dress and behave. And they're militant about Palestinians. Unlike the more secular Jews of Israel the Haredim vote in great numbers, and vote for the most extreme politicians.

Oh, and for the most part, they don't work. More than two thirds have no paying job. They get welfare and visit food banks and other charities instead.

The question has to be asked, then, as their numbers grow, how can Israel survive with such a large, militant and useless population of cultists leeching off the secular body of the state? For that matter, how much should people who contribute nothing to the state be able to control the state? It strikes me as odd that a community which won't join the mlitary votes for politicians who are defiantly in favour of the most hard line positions with the Arabs.

My own belief is they should not be permitted to vote at all. But i doubt Israel will go that way.

Jonah Goldberg has written some interesting pieces on these fanatics.

My reflexive response would be to be generous and say "it takes all kinds."

The problem is that I recognize this as an empty platitude...and am not positive that it's literally true.

Edited February 8, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

If their portion of the population continues to grow, the laws will eventually have to be changed to accommodate the new reality. Israel isn't stupid. Not exactly an unsolvable dilemma here.

[jbg]

If their portion of the population continues to grow, the laws will eventually have to be changed to accommodate the new reality. Israel isn't stupid. Not exactly an unsolvable dilemma here.

Israel will, as I said above, have to take action to ensure that unproductive people don't outnumber productive ones. You're right; Israel isn't stupid.

[bloodyminded]

Israel will, as I said above, have to take action to ensure that unproductive people don't outnumber productive ones. You're right; Israel isn't stupid.

They're tough....but "the Dude abides." All societies have some serious problems.