Why did the Conservative Party Apply for a GST Rebate?

[madmax]

Ok Strange piece of nonsense going on in the Conservative Strategy Room.

1) Apply for the GST rebate

2) Take Elections Canada to Court to give the GST rebate amount back to Elections Canada.

3) Why the hell did they apply for it in the first place?

It seems that Two political parties have been double dipping and probably for quite some time. Filing for Election Canada rebates and GST rebates on the same expenses. From the Column on CTV news, the NDP has never applied for a GST rebate. Why try to get back your expenses twice? Its almost sounds immoral. But we are dealing with political parties.

The Skinny I get, is that the CPC and the LPC have been abusing this loophole.

The CPC no longer figure they needed to doubledip and wanted to score some cheap points on the LPC who apparently continue to double dip into the rebates.

But what does it say about these political parties that they are into the taxpayers pockets with both hands?

If the CPC weren't sitting on mounds of Cash would they be giving back money? How long have the CPC been double dipping?

The NDP doesn't sit on mounds of cash and apparently never apply for a 2nd rebate on the same expenses.

Why would the CPC take money from the tax payer on purpose twice and then use the court time to give it back? How much did this shell game cost the taxpayer from start to finish? Why play such a game with taxpayers monies?

I think it was because Harper wanted to come clean before the 2008 election he was about to call and was worried that this double dipping might get exposed.

But why are the LPC continuing to double dip?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100101/Tories_Rebates_100101/20100101?hub=QPeriod

Edited January 3, 2010 by madmax

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Nice....this will go over real well with the rest of us tax paying citizens.

[Bryan]

Madmax,

Good points about wondering how long this has been going on... I wonder if this is documented at Elections Canada? I gave it a cursory glance, but their site is a mess, and it gives me headaches trying to sift through their clutter.

At least in the Conservative Party of Canada's case, we do know they are seeking to return all of the money they ever received from these rebates.

[capricorn]

Bryan, I looked for details on this matter. You'd think information from Elections Canada would be easily located about it and I wonder why this is made so difficult.

At the risk of causing further confusion, here's a bit of history from a recent Globe article.

The battle is over GST rebates the Tories were paid in 2008 by the Canada Revenue Agency because, under a separate piece of legislation, the Excise Tax Act, they had obtained status as a Qualified Not for Profit Organization (QNPO).

But that was the problem: The QNPO designation meant the Tories' accounting of their expenses to Elections Canada in the two previous election campaigns was now overstated.

The 2008 rebate cancelled out half the GST the party had claimed as expenses in the 2004 and 2006 campaigns.

The issue was not unfamiliar to the Tories, in that their political predecessor, the Progressive Conservative Party, had been advised by Mr. Mayrand's predecessor in 1996 that election expenses should be reimbursed net of GST, and that to do anything else would constitute "a subsidy to the party involved and a means to unjust enrichment" - in other words, double-dipping from the public trough.

So, within two months of receiving the CRA rebate, the Tories last June sent a letter to Mr. Mayrand, explaining the party's predicament, asking him to accept the corrected return and offering to send a cheque for the overpayment.

The party wrote again to Mr. Mayrand in August last year, but in September was advised that "complex issues" needed to be resolved before he could make a decision.

Finally, in December, 2008, Mr. Mayrand told the Tories that the CRA GST rebate didn't have any impact on how they had reported their election expenses, and refused to authorize the requested corrections.

And in January of this year, Mr. Mayrand's office issued a memo to all registered parties formally advising that "any subsequent rebate of GST has no impact on election expenses."

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20091027.BLATCH27ART2249/TPStory/TPComment/

Blatchford, I think, was also left somewhat confused.

Frankly, all that is clear to me is that thanks to former prime minister Jean Chrétien, who changed the rules in 2003-04 to make public financing of elections a taxpayer responsibility - upping the reimbursement rate for election expenses to 50 per cent and paying a quarterly allowance on a per-vote basis to qualified parties - the taxpayer pays, and pays again.

As the Elections Canada factum filed in the case notes, in the most recent quarter, the five registered parties that qualify received a total of $6,833,445. Add to that the cost of the legal battle to stop the Conservatives from paying back what they say they owe.

More info here from the Canadian Taxpayers' Federation, which I posted in another thread.

http://www.taxpayer.com/federal/political-parties-owe-taxpayers-millions

[Bryan]

Very interesting Capricorn.

If I'm reading that right, it appears that the rebate is automatically tacked on to the regular election expense reimbursements if you qualify, and that the CPC (and the PCs before them) had been getting the rebate essentially against their will. And the fight to stop receiving these rebates goes back some 14 years.

The CPC was not 'QNPO' until 2008. What was different that they didn't qualify before? Is it possible that the reason the NDP didn't get said rebate is not because they "didn't apply for it", but rather they just didn't qualify for it?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Bryan

[waldo]

as I suggested in the "Harper Government... uhhhh... 'Honest' thread"

apparently... the ndp has not applied for GST rebates. So, from that standpoint it's a jab at the Liberals. Principally though, it allows for increased Conservative national campaign spending limits - spend more, since actual campaign costs are reduced by the effective amount of the GST rebate. It would also, it appears, be an attempt to bring down the overall spending number in the "still" before the courts, "2006 Conservative in and out scheme"... you know, the thing Harper keeps dodging. We should all thank capricorn for reminding us that the "in and out scheme" is "still" yet to completely unfold... good on her!

[Topaz]

Harper rebated for two reasons, one to look good to the taxpayers and two, he will get more room to spend on those nasty campaign ads.

[capricorn]

If I'm reading that right, it appears that the rebate is automatically tacked on to the regular election expense reimbursements if you qualify, and that the CPC (and the PCs before them) had been getting the rebate essentially against their will. And the fight to stop receiving these rebates goes back some 14 years.

The CPC was not 'QNPO' until 2008. What was different that they didn't qualify before? Is it possible that the reason the NDP didn't get said rebate is not because they "didn't apply for it", but rather they just didn't qualify for it?

It doesn't appear that political parties need apply for QNPO status as the Excise Tax Act automatically confers that designation on them, if the financial formula set by the Act is met, which is "Qualifying NPO: is an NPO that receives at least 40% government funding;" http://thetaxissue.com/2009/12/08/gst-rebates-for-non-profit-organizations/ I interpret this as funding coming from the subsidies paid to political parties following elections.

If an NPO is not registered for GST purposes, there is no requirement to do so to claim a rebate. For current registrants, the claim must be made within four years from the deadline date for the GST/QST return for the period in question. For non-registrants, the claim must be made within four years from the end of the year in question.

http://thetaxissue.com/2009/12/08/gst-rebates-for-non-profit-organizations/

The newly constituted Conservative Party was registered with Elections Canada shortly after it was formed in October 2003. That automatically made them QNPO and eligible for the rebate. It appears they met the financial formula set by the Act. It also appears the Conservative Party applied for the GST rebate in subsequent years, because that's what their predecessors did. Then they acted to stop the resulting double-dipping.

Whether the NDP has QNPO status would depend on whether they meet the Excise Tax Act financial formula mentioned above. That's a way too complicated matter for this accounting-challenged brain of mine. The fact remains to receive the rebate, the NDP would have had to apply for it and they said they did not. What if they simply didn't know they were entitled to it? That would be one explanation as to why they didn't apply for it.

As I re-read what I just wrote, readers may conclude it's as clear as mud. Any clarifications/corrections (provable, of course) from some brave poster(s) would be appreciated.

[capricorn]

Harper rebated for two reasons, one to look good to the taxpayers and two, he will get more room to spend on those nasty campaign ads.

That dastardly schemer!!!

[madmax]

Bryan, I looked for details on this matter. You'd think information from Elections Canada would be easily located about it and I wonder why this is made so difficult.

At the risk of causing further confusion, here's a bit of history from a recent Globe article.

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20091027.BLATCH27ART2249/TPStory/TPComment/

Blatchford, I think, was also left somewhat confused.

More info here from the Canadian Taxpayers' Federation, which I posted in another thread.

http://www.taxpayer.com/federal/political-parties-owe-taxpayers-millions

thanks for the links and sorting through the articles. Very helpful.

I am curious to know if anyone has knowledge if the BQ applied for the GST rebate as well or any other party for that matter.

I am not well versed in the elections act. I also wonder if a party that didn't qualify for the Election Act rebates... I believe its based on the % of popular vote in a riding (correct me if I am wrong)

would that party be able for GST rebate?

Edited January 4, 2010 by madmax

[Jerry J. Fortin]

thanks for the links and sorting through the articles. Very helpful.

I am curious to know if anyone has knowledge if the BQ applied for the GST rebate as well or any other party for that matter.

I am not well versed in the elections act. I also wonder if a party that didn't qualify for the Election Act rebates... I believe its based on the % of popular vote in a riding (correct me if I am wrong)

would that party be able for GST rebate?

Harper reminds me of one of our former Premiers in Alberta, King Ralph. Ralph was an absolute dork but he was a skilled politician, one able to dance through rain drops without getting wet. AT LEAST FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF HIS PARTISAN FOLLOWERS.

[Molly]

"Qualifying NPO: is an NPO that receives at least 40% government funding;"

Surely the Conservatives are more fully funded by their members than to qualify.... and the NDP, sucking the taxpayer teat, would qualify....

[capricorn]

I am curious to know if anyone has knowledge if the BQ applied for the GST rebate as well or any other party for that matter.

The Bloc qualifies for the GST rebate because of the +40% public financing proviso. Did they apply for it? Couldn't find info one way or another.

"Taxpayers fund 95 per cent of Bloc’s finances"

http://www.vigile.net/Taxpayers-fund-95-per-cent-of-Bloc

Not bad for a party whose raison d'etre is to break up the country.

Obviously the Tories qualified as they claimed it.

I don't know about the Liberals or the NDP. All I could find is total dollar amount of public funding by party.

I am not well versed in the elections act. I also wonder if a party that didn't qualify for the Election Act rebates... I believe its based on the % of popular vote in a riding (correct me if I am wrong)

would that party be able for GST rebate?

There are a number of laws involved in these calculations and trying to decipher how they all interconnect is somewhat of a legal challenge.

[William Ashley]

The Cons are doing it because they misfiled and it would be tax fraud in addition to election fraud.

[punked]

"Qualifying NPO: is an NPO that receives at least 40% government funding;"

Surely the Conservatives are more fully funded by their members than to qualify.... and the NDP, sucking the taxpayer teat, would qualify....

Not sure what this means but the NDP as a percentages takes less money from the government compared to donations then the Liberals. The NDP would be fine with out government funding.

BTW Unlike your lie suggests the NDP never applied for the GST rebate according to pundits guide but the Liberals would have to pay back close to half a million.

http://www.punditsguide.ca/

Edited January 4, 2010 by punked

[capricorn]

The Cons are doing it because they misfiled and it would be tax fraud in addition to election fraud.

You obviously have zero understanding of what is under discussion. At the base of the issue is that a bureaucracy (Elections Canada) has been overcharging taxpayers through refunding GST payments made to political parties who had applied for them. This happened because of improper federal accounting practices by Elections Canada, as was confirmed by an independent, competent body, KPMG. Elections Canada refused to receive the funds paid in error and return such overpayments to the public treasury. The courts have ordered Elections Canada to mend its ways and accept the overpayments offered by the Conservative Party effectively returning the money to the taxpayers.

Is that put simply enough for you to understand William? With this new knowledge in mind, you may be interested in re-reading the thread. I doubt you will make a finding of tax or election fraud. But if you do, please share.

Edited January 4, 2010 by capricorn

[punked]

You obviously have zero understanding of what is under discussion. At the base of the issue is that a bureaucracy (Elections Canada) has been overcharging taxpayers through the refunding GST payments made to political parties. This happened because of improper federal accounting practices by Elections Canada, as was confirmed by an independent, competent body, KPMG. Elections Canada refused to receive the funds paid in error and return such overpayments to the public treasury. The courts have ordered Elections Canada to mend its ways and accept the overpayments offered by the Conservative Party effectively returning the money to the taxpayers.

Is that put simply enough for you to understand William? With this new knowledge in mind, you may be interested in re-reading the thread. I doubt you will make a finding of tax or election fraud. But if you do, please share.

Actually according to pundits guide if the Conservatives win there top amounts of spending will drop and they will be out of court of over spending in the 2006 campaign with there in and out scheme. Another perk is killing the Liberals coffers.

[William Ashley]

You obviously have zero understanding of what is under discussion. At the base of the issue is that a bureaucracy (Elections Canada) has been overcharging taxpayers through refunding GST payments made to political parties who had applied for them. This happened because of improper federal accounting practices by Elections Canada, as was confirmed by an independent, competent body, KPMG. Elections Canada refused to receive the funds paid in error and return such overpayments to the public treasury. The courts have ordered Elections Canada to mend its ways and accept the overpayments offered by the Conservative Party effectively returning the money to the taxpayers.

Is that put simply enough for you to understand William? With this new knowledge in mind, you may be interested in re-reading the thread. I doubt you will make a finding of tax or election fraud. But if you do, please share.

Maybe there is something you don't understand - there is something called "donation" on tax returns you don't need to take the government to court to donate to it, you just need put it to a donation. There are government funds for tax reduction on debt repayment etc.. something the Cons have no clue on obviously cause they are only for burdoning the public with a insurmaountably growing DEBT each and every year putting back debt repayment by a decade or more.

Also there is something you don't understand - election law.

Regardless of the situation the law is something here. Bear in mind though, that money the Cons get is all tax payer money anyway - giving it back is a crock if you take into account how much they are stealing from the tax payers for partisan gains to begin with.

Why waste government tax payer dollars and party tax payer dollars for something you could just donate anyway not taking up the heavily over burdoned courts time, and wasting even more tax payer dollars? Looks like idiocy to me to fool the public into thinking they arn't crooks and cheats.

"Gifts to Canada include monetary gifts made directly to the federal Debt Servicing and Reduction Account. If you made such a gift, which will be used only to service the public debt, you should have received a tax receipt. To make a gift to this account, which should be made payable to the Receiver General, send it, along with a note asking that we apply it to this account, to: Place du Portage, Phase III, 11 Laurier Street, Gatineau QC K1A 0S5."

Edited January 4, 2010 by William Ashley

[punked]

Here is another article on the subject. It should be noted the NDP has never filed for this GST rebate I think it is because more then 60% of their funding comes from donations. Unlike the other political parties the NDP does too well with donations to qualify for this rebate. They just do too good to live off the government tit like the Liberals and Conservatives. You might want to TAKE NOTE OF THAT MOLLY. How does eating your words feel?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/judge-sides-with-tories-on-gst-rebates/article1418552/

[capricorn]

Here is another article on the subject. It should be noted the NDP has never filed for this GST rebate I think it is because more then 60% of their funding comes from donations. Unlike the other political parties the NDP does too well with donations to qualify for this rebate. They just do too good to live off the government tit like the Liberals and Conservatives. You might want to TAKE NOTE OF THAT MOLLY. How does eating your words feel?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/judge-sides-with-tories-on-gst-rebates/article1418552/

Punked what you say is not accurate. Have a look at Table 2 and Chart 2 in this PDF document. As a ratio of public dollars to every individually donated dollar, it is lowest for the Conservative Party than the other parties. The funding formula favours the NDP and the other parties more than it does the Conservatives.

http://www.fcpp.org/images/publications/FB066%20What%20Saved%20the%20Bloq%20Quebecois.pdf

Edit to add: From the numbers in the above chart, the NDP does qualify for the GST rebate.

Total public financing: $58.5M

Total private donations: 38.3M

Grand total funding: 96.8M x 40%= 38.72M

So NDP public funding is at least 40% of total funding which qualifies for the rebate.

Did the NDP even know they were eligible for the rebate?

Edited January 5, 2010 by capricorn

[punked]

Punked what you say is not accurate. Have a look at Table 2 and Chart 2 in this PDF document. As a ratio of public dollars to every individually donated dollar, it is lowest for the Conservative Party than the other parties. The funding formula favours the NDP and the other parties more than it does the Conservatives.

http://www.fcpp.org/images/publications/FB066%20What%20Saved%20the%20Bloq%20Quebecois.pdf

Edit to add: From the numbers in the above chart, the NDP does qualify for the GST rebate.

Total public financing: $58.5M

Total private donations: 38.3M

Grand total funding: 96.8M x 40%= 38.72M

So NDP public funding is at least 40% of total funding which qualifies for the rebate.

Did the NDP even know they were eligible for the rebate?

I am going to go with the parties figures over yours. You might notice the numbers are really close to not qualifying for it so it is quite possible they don't qualify like the other tit sucking parties.

[capricorn]

I am going to go with the parties figures over yours.

Those are not my figures. If you have numbers provided directly by the NDP, then post them with a link.

You might notice the numbers are really close to not qualifying for it so it is quite possible they don't qualify like the other tit sucking parties.

I have demonstrated with numbers that the NDP most probably qualifies. You say they might not qualify but you have not challenged the numbers I provide with anything concrete that I can look at.

[punked]

Those are not my figures. If you have numbers provided directly by the NDP, then post them with a link.

I have demonstrated with numbers that the NDP most probably qualifies. You say they might not qualify but you have not challenged the numbers I provide with anything concrete that I can look at.

I have provided the party saying they don't qualify and that your numbers are average numbers from 2000-2008 for the party that is now how the GST rebates shake down. They come from election spending.

[capricorn]

I have provided the party saying they don't qualify

I don't see anywhere that the NDP said it doesn't qualify.

A spokesman for the New Democrats said the party has never applied for the GST rebate.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2009/09/01/10705746-cp.html

Show me your link where the NDP said it didn't qualify.

and that your numbers are average numbers from 2000-2008 for the party that is now how the GST rebates shake down. They come from election spending.

Qualifying for the rebate comes from the formula which says a party must receive at least 40% of its funding from public funds. Election spending has nothing to do with this formula.

[punked]

I don't see anywhere that the NDP said it doesn't qualify.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2009/09/01/10705746-cp.html

Show me your link where the NDP said it didn't qualify.

Qualifying for the rebate comes from the formula which says a party must receive at least 40% of its funding from public funds. Election spending has nothing to do with this formula.

Well it is one or the other. Either they didn't want to live off the public tit like the Cons and Liberals, or they couldn't. Either way the NDP comes out looking a lot better then the other two parties who steal the public's money.