Chavez threatens car-makers

[Bugs]

Chavez is at it again, this time it's the car companies that have to bend the knee.

[quoteVenezuela's Chavez threatens to kick out carmakers

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez has told car companies they must share their technology with local businesses or leave the country.

Mr Chavez gave the ultimatum to Toyota, Ford, General Motors and Fiat during a public address.

If the demand isn't met, he said: "I invite you to pack up your belongings and leave. I'll bring in the Russians, the Belorusians, the Chinese."

Venezuela has nationalised most of the oil, metal and coffee industries.

Some interesting facts: Last year, car plants employed over 2.000 workers, who produced 135,042 cars and trucks. There are 'currency controls' in Venezuela -- essentially it is difficult to get money out of the country -- and it means the industry is struggling to get enough money to import parts and pay off debts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8429427.stm

[bill_barilko]

In Colombia they refer to Chavez as El Mono, which means The Monkey.

[kimmy]

What "technology" are they supposed to share? Is Toyota supposed to hand over a complete set of blueprints for a Prius?

I hope the industry pulls out.

If Hugo wants to bring in the Chinese, Russians, and Belorussians, good for him.

Venezuelans can look forward to a Chery in every driveway and a chicken in every pot, I guess.

-k

[Jerry J. Fortin]

In Colombia they refer to Chavez as El Mono, which means The Monkey.

Thats nice. Considering it comes from a right wing drug smuggling kingpin type of US puppet government.

[Shady]

Thats nice. Considering it comes from a right wing drug smuggling kingpin type of US puppet government.

Yeah, but it's still funny cause it's true. But for your credibility's sake, I really hope you're not defending Chavez. The communist-loving, drug-smuggling, holocaust-denying kingpin type of the Iranian government.

Best Friends Forever!

PIC

Btw, the above posted picture needs to be viewed while listening to

for full effect.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The problem is that a large portion of South America is corrupt. A lot of it is in economic servitude. Lastly a lot of it is subject to the good will of America. Yes Hugo is a socialist, of that there is no doubt. Yet compare the two in terms of GDP,

number three on the continent is Columbia with 399,400 million international dollars and then number 4 is Venezuela with 357,900

million international dollars. Yet the GDP per capita is a different picture with Venezuela citizens at number three with $13500 US dollars per year, and Columbia at number seven with only $8900 US dollars per year. In terms of economic growth Venezuela is running at 8.4 % and Columbia at only 7%. Unemployment in Venezuela is currently at 8.5% and Columbia is at 11.2%. The percentage of the population living under the poverty line in Venezuela is a staggering 37.9%, but in Columbia it is far worse at 49.2%.

So there are numerous measurements that can be viewed and used to judge who is doing better. Right now inflation is killing the Venezuela economy at more than 18%, but in all other areas they seem to be doing better than their friends in Columbia.

[bill_barilko]

.....Considering it comes from a right wing drug smuggling kingpin type of US puppet government.

My guess is-given the ignorant even idiotic comment as quoted-that you have never been to Colombia and don't even speak the Spanish language. (I have and I do)

To say you have NFC is to be polite.

As your pal The Monkey runs out of petrodollars his friends-like Dominica and other political heavyweights-will desert his sinking ship like the rats they are.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

My guess is-given the ignorant even idiotic comment as quoted-that you have never been to Colombia and don't even speak the Spanish language. (I have and I do)

To say you have NFC is to be polite.

As your pal The Monkey runs out of petrodollars his friends-like Dominica and other political heavyweights-will desert his sinking ship like the rats they are.

So great and wise one, why not enlighten us with your knowledge.

[Shady]

So there are numerous measurements that can be viewed and used to judge who is doing better. Right now inflation is killing the Venezuela economy at more than 18%, but in all other areas they seem to be doing better than their friends in Columbia.

Veneuela isn't doing better. As you said, Veneuela has an inflation rate of almost 20%! And if one factors in the influence of the oil indusrty in Venezuela, they really have a very pathetic real economy that isn't fueled by fuel.

Columbia is going about it the right way. Yes, they'll have a higher unemployment rate for a while. And yes they'll have slower economic growth. But it's real growth. Not based on hyper-inflation, and oil money, that rises and falls with the price of a barrel of oil.

[KeyStone]

Chavez is at it again, this time it's the car companies that have to bend the knee.

Some interesting facts: Last year, car plants employed over 2.000 workers, who produced 135,042 cars and trucks. There are 'currency controls' in Venezuela -- essentially it is difficult to get money out of the country -- and it means the industry is struggling to get enough money to import parts and pay off debts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8429427.stm

Many of the things that Chavez has done have worked for the benefit of the people - not only in Venezuela, but as a new agreement between the poor providers of natural resources and the rich nations who extract them.

However, this recent move as reported, seems to be poorly thought out.

Unlike oil and mineral extraction, car manufacturers can simply leave the country.

Currently, the auto manufacturers provide jobs, and taxes. The fact that they make some profit seems bearable.

For Chavez to demand that they share their technology with local manufacturers doesn't make much sense, and discourages companies from investing in Venezuela, particularly in R and D.

I will withhold further commentary on this, until more information is provided. Currently, information on the demand seems quite limited and the Western media has a desire to villainize Chavez as much as possible.

[KeyStone]

Yeah, but it's still funny cause it's true. But for your credibility's sake, I really hope you're not defending Chavez. The communist-loving, drug-smuggling, holocaust-denying kingpin type of the Iranian government.

Best Friends Forever!

PIC

Btw, the above posted picture needs to be viewed while listening to

for full effect.

Shady, there is much more to politics than who one's friends are.

Being buddies with the US and/or Israel seems a far worse association than Ahmadinejad if one looks at incursions into other nations. The US was complicit in trying to overthrow Chavez, and for that it is only natural that Chavez would look to find any allies he can to help him against a potential US threat. You might remember that Cuba had no significant relations with the USSR prior to aggressive US actions against the island nations, which forced them to seek out whatever allies it could.

As for your myriad of lies, there is nothing to suggest that Chavez is either a drug smuggler or a holocaust denier.

But, I strongly suspect that neither truth nor credibility are goals of yours, so continue on.

[KeyStone]

"My guess is-given the ignorant even idiotic comment as quoted-that you have never been to Colombia and don't even speak the Spanish language."

Welcome to the new millenium Bill - where you can obtain information without having been to a place, or speaking the local language. You may notice the abundance of people here who have opinions on Ahmadinejad. How many of them do you think speak Persian and have been to Iran?

"I have and I do.

Well, la de da.

"As your pal The Monkey runs out of petrodollars his friends-like Dominica and other political heavyweights-will desert his sinking ship like the rats they are."

With Colombia's history of killing journalists, union leaders, and rival politicians, they really have no business pointing fingers at anyone. As for the economies of the two countries, Colombia is going to be getting a boost from Canada and the US as they try to prop up another corrupt regime in the fight against socialism.

If you did some research, you would find that one of the reasons for the rise in the price of oil, is that Chavez helped to solidify OPEC, unlike his predecessor who undermined it. Yes, he is spending a lot of it - on things like education, health care, and building companies in Venezuela to manufacture products in Venezuela - instead of being dependent on foreign companies.

Chavez is showing the world that the 3rd world nations do not have to accept the pittance that they are offered in exchange for their oil, minerals and access to their markets. They can do better - and that scares the shit out of the Peter Munks of the world.

[Bugs]

If you did some research, you would find that one of the reasons for the rise in the price of oil, is that Chavez helped to solidify OPEC, unlike his predecessor who undermined it. Yes, he is spending a lot of it - on things like education, health care, and building companies in Venezuela to manufacture products in Venezuela - instead of being dependent on foreign companies.

Chavez is showing the world that the 3rd world nations do not have to accept the pittance that they are offered in exchange for their oil, minerals and access to their markets. They can do better - and that scares the shit out of the Peter Munks of the world.

When oil hit $150 a barrel, the world economy went for a crap. How much is oil worth when that happens? They had to cut production way back to get it back to the $70 range. Chavez played a role in that the cartel. In the meantime, gold has skyrocketed. When OPEC was happy with $60 oil, an ounce of gold cost 5 barrels. Now it costs over 15 barrels.

It seems like there is a natural price at work here, and that the Sheiks end up with far less gold for their greed than they would have enjoyed if oil had stayed at $60.

=========================

The point is that oil's price is dependent upon demand, and without the internal combustion engine, the oil becomes almost valueless, as it was before we became mechanized. OPEC nations are as dependent on the industrial nations as the industrial nations are on them.

Chavez is blowing Venezuela's best chance. In simple terms, he is using the income from oil to buy out the high points of the existing economy. Net, there is little net new investment, and the government takeovers scare off investors. To add to it, industrial investors, unless they can force conditions, face huge currency restrictions that makes it impossible to get money out of the country without paying fees and artificial rates of exchange that essentially emulate the Cuban system. The word 'confiscation' is often used to describe them. A Venezuelan passport now costs about US$25,000. You get the picture? People can't get their assets out of the country.

Chavez, a kind of elected military dictator with pretensions to becoming a South American Lenin, has mastered the feat of minimizing the economic growth that pumping a million barrels a day can produce for the ordinary people of the country, and overspending, to the tune of creating an inflation rate that is only 18% because of economic slowdown. An 18% inflation means prices double every four years. Wages? Not so much.

That's the socialist part.

[bill_barilko]

The one good thing Chavez did for me and he'll probably never learn about it but I'll share it with his fans/admirers here.

He subsidises the food he sells to Trinidad & Tobago (right next door) so that I could buy quality Venezuelan cheese for less than 10% of what we pay for a similar product here-isn't that great good and kind of The Monkey?

The others to benefit are of course Colombian farmers who are paid US funds/world prices by the Venezuelan Gubmint who have bankrupted/ripped off/helped destroy the Venezuelan agricultural sector yet who are still charged with the task of feeding the people of Venezuela.

So there's Good News and there's Bad News but I got in a number of good feeds/wonderful cheese pizzas in T&T Thanks to The Monkey and his pathological pissing away of the future of Venezuela.

[naomiglover]

I suppose all the people who are pissing on Chavez prefer corporate puppet dictators who have been running Central and South America into the ground for the past few decades.

Chavez has his many faults, but he's been better for the people of Venezuela than the past, corrupt leaders.

South America is going through an interesting transformation period right now.

[Shwa]

...past few decades.

Past "few" decades??? You mean over the past century right?

Besides, it is one thing to threaten car makers, so long as he doesn't mess with the banana companies.

[bill_barilko]

Past "few" decades??? You mean over the past century right?

Besides, it is one thing to threaten car makers, so long as he doesn't mess with the banana companies.

One theory I've read on why the USA hasn't taken down The Monkey is that for the present they still need Venezuelan crude.

Long term there's a plan to wean themselves off the stuff, Canadian tar sands oil is a key part of that plan IIRC.

[KeyStone]

"When oil hit $150 a barrel, the world economy went for a crap. How much is oil worth when that happens? They had to cut production way back to get it back to the $70 range. Chavez played a role in that the cartel. In the meantime, gold has skyrocketed. When OPEC was happy with $60 oil, an ounce of gold cost 5 barrels. Now it costs over 15 barrels."

Well, it wasn't exactly cause and effect. Generally, the financial crisis was attributed to the sub-prime meltdown having a chain reaction in the financial industry, but if you want to blame Chavez, I'm sure he has been accused of less credible things.

"It seems like there is a natural price at work here, and that the Sheiks end up with far less gold for their greed than they would have enjoyed if oil had stayed at $60."

Gold is only one measurement, and it has gone up against everything drastically, so it seems a bit silly to suddenly make that the standard. The cartel loses if the rest of the world starts looking at viable alternatives to fossil fuels and investing heavily. I agree that it is not good for long-term profit to increase the price too much, but the success that I am talking about occured when Chavez first came to power. At that time, OPEC was in disarray and the price of oil had sunk to around $12/barrel largely due to the fact that Venezuela had previously been uncooperative as an OPEC partner.

"The point is that oil's price is dependent upon demand, and without the internal combustion engine, the oil becomes almost valueless, as it was before we became mechanized. OPEC nations are as dependent on the industrial nations as the industrial nations are on them."

Sure.

"Chavez is blowing Venezuela's best chance. In simple terms, he is using the income from oil to buy out the high points of the existing economy."

Is he? Is taking away money from foreign multinationals, and putting it into healthcare, education, infrastructure blowing it?

Sure, I agree that he is spending too much money outside of the country, but Venezuela is taking some tremendous strides. Education, (something that the World Bank and IMF had been trying to deny Latin America), is how 3rd world countries begin to equalize things. The West would like nothing better than for Venezuela to allow foreign companies to 'invest' in taking their oil and minerals, while giving the people low-wage jobs and a pittance in taxes, but Venezuela asked for more - and they got it.

Now, I don't agree with the auto position he has put forward and some of the other restrictions on corporations, but the change to the oil industry practices has been a clear success. Perhaps he could have spent the money more wisely, but the fact that they have so much revenue now coming in, when prior they received only 1% royalities on the Orinoco Tar Sands, is an unmitigated success.

What you fail to realize is that the West (and this includes Canada), has been propagating a myth for quite some time. That myth is that the people of Latin America are too stupid to extract their own resources. So, without Western technologies, it will just stay in the ground. Therefore, it is a good idea to accept whatever terms are offered. Chavez has challenged that myth and won.

A second myth the West likes to perpetuate, is that all Latin American nations are dependent on foreign investment. Well, if you read Joseph Stiglitz, you'll see that the only country that weathered the Asian economic crisis well, was Malaysia, because they ignored the IMF, and put in strict controls on money entering and leaving the country, despite the big scare from business that there would be a massive exodus.

Foreign investment is good, but internal domestic investment is better. Instead of hoping that foreign investors will put in $200 Billion into the country, he can just invest it himself, and that way he doesn't need to pander to foreign companies, doesn't have to worry about a mass exodus should the economy take a turn, and can ensure that the investment goes where it is needed most. Economic theory teaches us that driving away foreign investment results in ecomic collapse, but no one has done what Chavez is doing. What if the government takes in so much money from their businesses, and from taxes, that they can invest more in the country than private investors ever would?

You'll notice that Venezuela survived the economic crisis quite well, despite the fall in the price of oil.

"A Venezuelan passport now costs about US$25,000. You get the picture? People can't get their assets out of the country."

Interesting, I didn't know that. I'll research and get back to you.

"Chavez, a kind of elected military dictator with pretensions to becoming a South American Lenin,"

How can one be a dictator if one is elected, and continues to have elections. Unlike most people who debate against Chavez, you have strong points. It's a shame you undermine them with such clear falsehoods.

"has mastered the feat of minimizing the economic growth that pumping a million barrels a day can produce for the ordinary people of the country, and overspending, to the tune of creating an inflation rate that is only 18% because of economic slowdown."

So, do you agree that getting more revenue from the oil companies was the right thing to do, but that he isn't spending the money properly, and that the additional (and unpredictable) changes that he continue to bring in, are pushing things too far?

"An 18% inflation means prices double every four years. Wages? Not so much."

So, let me see if I understand. If I am a maid, and inflation goes up 18% every four years, how it that the cost of my services would remain stagnant, but my purchasing power would go down?

But perhaps you are referring to items for which there is a foreign component? There is some truth to that. Although, Chavez is working very hard to make Venezuela less dependent on trade, particularly with non Latin American countries, which should help to combat inflation.

I agree that it is a problem though. The changes have been too rapid. Combing increased wealth (demand) with decreased investors (supply) can have some dire effects.

"That's the socialist part."

There's a lot more socialism in Chavez than that. He doesn't try to hide it.

[bloodyminded]

If anyone wishes to undertake the heretical task of, say, reading through the U.S. State Department's official, freely available site, and to carefully read their reports on Colombia and Venezuela, they'll find that the Colombian government comes out worse than does Chavez.

Government corruption, violence, massive issues with the justice department, repression of media, political killings, etc.

True, the Department takes the offical patriotic line that Chavez is somehow worse. They do this through emphasis of particular phraseology. They're politicized officials, and so are indoctrinated, of course.

But the facts themselves speak a rather different story.

The comparative economic wisdom of the two leaders might well be a separate issue; until I'm more educated on this matter, I remain agnostic.

But in terms of repression and corruption, Good buddy Uribe is worse.

People here in the North who defend him, while excoriating Chavez, are speaking quite simply from nationalistic obedience. But that's an old story, isn't it?

[KeyStone]

One theory I've read on why the USA hasn't taken down The Monkey is that for the present they still need Venezuelan crude.

Long term there's a plan to wean themselves off the stuff, Canadian tar sands oil is a key part of that plan IIRC.

Well Bill, firstly I hope you realize that the term the 'monkey'or more accurately 'macaque', refers to his indigenous status.

There are similar people in the US who refer to Obama as a monkey. You will see that you are in good company.

Secondly, if you have been paying attention to the news in the past ten years, you would have noticed that the US has tried to take Chavez down. There was a coup, supported by the US, which failed, only because the people took to the streets and demanded him back.

If you have been paying attention in the past 50 years, you'll see that there are a number of Left-leaning Latin American leaders who have been removed either directly or indirectly by the US. Sometimes it is a mysterious plane crash, sometimes a coup by an internal group with US support - there are different methods.

Chavez has been saying for years that the US plans to kill him. While it might make him seem crazy, it also gives him some protection. If he is killed mysteriously, the finger will be pointed at the US, and he will become a martyr. In this information age, it is far more difficult than it was in the 1950's to take out a national leader, and not be held responsible.

[bill_barilko]

Well Bill, firstly I hope you realize that the term the 'monkey'or more accurately 'macaque', refers to his indigenous status.

Chavez is no more indigenous than I am.

In general terms the popular moniker El Mono refers to his jibbering and jabbering in the media-specifically Alo Presidente his radio programme.

He's the sort of leader who gives Buffoons a bad name.

[bill_barilko]

I now see that Comrade Chavez wants to abolish Xmas presents and tell kids stories about Simon Bolivar instead!

read this if you want a laugh

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I now see that Comrade Chavez wants to abolish Xmas presents and tell kids stories about Simon Bolivar instead!

read this if you want a laugh

He has his country we have ours. I only wish we had leaders with as big a pair as he has.

[KeyStone]

I now see that Comrade Chavez wants to abolish Xmas presents and tell kids stories about Simon Bolivar instead!

read this if you want a laugh

Well Bill, actually he wants to discourage the consumerist gift-giving insanity that occurs each Christmas. You know, the one that makes fathers feel worthless if they can't afford to get their child the very latest toy? The one that ensures suicide rates are higher than at any time of year?

He also isn't abolishing anything, he's suggesting what people should do with his own personal opinion, not enacting legislation.

What a monster.

[bill_barilko]

Well Bill, actually he wants to discourage the consumerist gift-giving insanity that occurs each Christmas. You know, the one that makes fathers feel worthless if they can't afford to get their child the very latest toy? The one that ensures suicide rates are higher than at any time of year?

Suicide rates are actually highest in spring-you can look it up if you like.