Molly Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 I entered Ontario in the middle of the Harris years, and saw the province through Saskatchewan eyes. You are all overstating reality. Harris made some stupid mistakes, and took the province in some directions it desperately needed to go. Fact is, I'd vote for him right now, particularly given the list of feebly drifting alternatives on the roster... but I sure wouldn't defend him as having done everything right. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
madmax Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Posted October 31, 2009 I entered Ontario in the middle of the Harris years, and saw the province through Saskatchewan eyes. You are all overstating reality. No, I am actually understating much of the Harris period. Perhaps worse of all, however, is that the errors of Harris are diverting a conversation about a government that is adrift. Which is why the current Ontario Liberals continue to receive a free ride. I do think some of Mr Hardners posts are somewhat overly passionate, but, that is one reaction that is triggered from numerous people when it comes down to the Harris era. However, that said, I agree with him, that we haven't had "good government" for some time. Harris made some stupid mistakes, and took the province in some directions it desperately needed to go. The same is said of the Rae era. And both governments also went in directions we had no business in going. Whereas the current government is triple worse then the Rae government for fiscal spending, and triple worse then the Harris government for scandals. However it is also doubly immune from criticism as it has a teflon coating as voters remember both the Heir and the other style of governments of the past. Fact is, I'd vote for him right now, particularly given the list of feebly drifting alternatives on the roster... but I sure wouldn't defend him as having done everything right. THus, the reality is today, you still have no choice. And if you are serious about the Harris Government, then you can vote for the people who were behind Harris and currently stand beside Hudak. That would be your alternative based upon your comments. Meanwhile.... I like you sig. Flaherty has some splaining to do, no doubt. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 Molly, While I agree that strong leaders are more commendable than mealy middle-roaders, the proof of Harris' legacy is in his post-Ontario resumé. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 WB Michael, usually I find your posts much more logical. It really seems your viewpoint is mostly emotional on this one. Passionate, but not logical.As always, you're entitled to your opinion. The real question however is how many other Ontarioans share it! I've posted before that I believe this to be an untested premise. I submit that it's always the rebels who win huge majorities. Trudeau, Mulroney and Harris' victories seem to me to show that the electorate is rarely that enthusiastic with the typical, "middle of the road", "centre", "beige suit and brown shoes" candidates. We desperately want SOMETHING other than the status quo! If we get it the choice seems to be taken from us. Mulroney quit, he was not voted down. We'll never know if he would have won the next election. Certainly, we can assume he would not have done as badly as Kim Campbell, the choice that the people never chose. She was chosen by her party to be their offering. The same with Harris. He retired. Ernie Eves was very much Harris Lite! I don't blame Ontario for voting in the Liberals. Ernie never wanted the job and didn't seem all that different from the Liberals anyway! Certainly, he worked hard to tell us that he would NOT be like Harris! I don't normally go in for conspiracy theories but it does seem strange that we are so rarely offered such candidates. We are given far more Joe Clarks than Mulroneys, many more John Turners than Trudeaus. It almost seems as if the game is actually run by some sort of Ned Flanders Illuminati! ohmy.gif I don't know if the rebels always win huge majorities, but I'll grant you that strong visionaries do better than middle-of-the road political opinion surfers. Then again, McGuinty, Chretien... these are not rebels and they do win majorities. We want something other than the status quo when we're unhappy with the status quo. Harris and Mulroney retired because they couldn't get elected again. Eventually the public starts to resent the visionaries for some reason, or maybe the visionaries realize that they need to follow the people sometime. I'm not sure. The game is run by Ned Flanders types and successfully so at that. It's a strategy game, won by marketing and spreadsheets if you want to be cynical. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Keepitsimple Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 I entered Ontario in the middle of the Harris years, and saw the province through Saskatchewan eyes. You are all overstating reality. Harris made some stupid mistakes, and took the province in some directions it desperately needed to go. Fact is, I'd vote for him right now, particularly given the list of feebly drifting alternatives on the roster... but I sure wouldn't defend him as having done everything right. Well said. Harris never wanted people to like him.....he tried to do what he said he'd do - and then he left. Harris was a perfect example of what corporate "turnarounds" are all about. The axiom is "Fail fast and fix it". That means when you are faced with a situation where you can't just twiddle your thumbs and hope for the best, you take brave action in a specific direction and be prepared to fix things as you move along - knowing that it's not going to be perfect. In Education, the priciples of teacher and student testing is a sound one - I can't see how anyone can argue against that - it's a question of how it's designed and administered. Same as per-student funding. Removing Education from property taxes and centralizing bargaining with the Teacher's Union has removed the union's ability to hold communities hostage to ever increasing salaries and benefits. The principle is sound but Ontario has not yet taken the proper actions to refine the funding formula to take into account student's needs. Yes, Harris made mistakes and he was a tyrant - but he was right for the times. He was an agent of change but knew he was not going to stay around to be a "manager". His time was up. Quote Back to Basics
Wild Bill Posted October 31, 2009 Report Posted October 31, 2009 How can anyone in their right mind want the Harris days back!! People died under his actions, he turned Ontario upside down trying to govern with his US schooled advisors and left a debt and healthcare in a mess. As compared to McGuinty, who caused people to get beaten up and thrown in hospitals with brain damage in Caledonia? People who have seen their businesses go bankrupt and the value of their homes drop so much they can't sell them? McGuinty, who inflated our provincial debt by billions upon billions, blowing at least one of those BILLIONS on the eHealth scandal? With the money scammed with eHealth how many nurses could we add in our hospitals? Or maybe the folks down Port Colborne way might have KEPT their hospital! Harris at least left us with more beds than he closed. I guess some folks only give credit if they are LIBERAL beds! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Argus Posted November 2, 2009 Report Posted November 2, 2009 To be certain, the Public Education system has been a mess since the coming of Mike Harris. Quality of education has not been improved. Teacher testing and student testing is a joke. No, education has definitely not improved. Although we're paying FAR more for it nowadays because McGuinty puts on a leather bondage outfit every time he sees a teacher and begs them to spank him. The teachers have gotten more money, better benefits, more power, smaller classrooms, and more prep time. Just recently McGuinty ignored the recommendations of the report which he used to justify extending kindergarten and decided to use expensive, unionized teachers rather than early childhood educators - greatly expanding the cost, despite a massive deficit. In Ontario's largest school district - Toronto - the yearly budget increases continue to escelate even while the number of pupils enrolled continues to decline. Unfortunately, we need someone like Harris to get control of spending after the likes of McGuinty or Peterson and Rae have spent us into the poorhouse. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
madmax Posted November 2, 2009 Author Report Posted November 2, 2009 No, education has definitely not improved. Although we're paying FAR more for it nowadays because McGuinty puts on a leather bondage outfit every time he sees a teacher and begs them to spank him. Ouch! That's biting. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted November 2, 2009 Report Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) All Tim Hudak needs to do is stay the coarse and not get crazy and say or do anything shocking and his Tories are going to win the next election. No doubt about it. Edited November 2, 2009 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Michael Hardner Posted November 2, 2009 Report Posted November 2, 2009 We could have done without that mental image... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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