punked Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Absolutely I'm anti-union, a fact I don't hide. You still have failed to answer why I or anyone else SHOULD pay for someone else or assist them in any way shape or form if they refuse to work. Please explain why this is my personal responsibility or even the responsibility of the government. I think the government is there to represent the people Dave and the 20% of Canadians who are in unions are people Dave. Maybe you can explain to me why you think union members don't get representation like every other Canadian is entitled too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 That's right, the government is there to represent the people, not the unions. I'm not anti union, but I really don't see the big deal here. It appears to be something that the NDP has latched onto....for some strange reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Absolutely I'm anti-union, a fact I don't hide. You still have failed to answer why I or anyone else SHOULD pay for someone else or assist them in any way shape or form if they refuse to work. Please explain why this is my personal responsibility or even the responsibility of the government. Governments make labour laws so workers like you have some protection. Unions make sure employers follow the laws. Without unions pressing labour issues, you'd still be working for slave wages most of which you give back to the company (store) to pay debts to them. That's how it worked before there were unions. As long as we have unions, some people will complain about them. But if we didn't have unions, someone would create them, because employers will take advantage of workers whenever and however they can. You can choose to work in non-union shops: That's your choice. But don't ever forget that you only have employee rights because unions fought for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_ON Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I think the government is there to represent the people Dave and the 20% of Canadians who are in unions are people Dave. Maybe you can explain to me why you think union members don't get representation like every other Canadian is entitled too. Representation does not equal assistance because you refuse to do the job you were hired to do. You're operating from the premise that representation equals direct interference in a labor dispute. It doesn't. Nothing gets you nothing and you still haven't answered my question. The government is supported by my tax dollars punked. Why should my tax dollars go to someone who refuses to do their job? Why is the corporation in the wrong and the workers in the right? Is it not the right of the corporation to run its business as it sees fit? If the workers don't like this situation they should seek employment elsewhere, if they're unwilling or unable to find employment elsewhere they should do the job they have and be grateful for it. There are many private sector jobs that have disappeared over the past few months, and I'm certain the company would have no trouble finding replacement workers to fill the vacancies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 That's right, the government is there to represent the people, not the unions. I'm not anti union, but I really don't see the big deal here. It appears to be something that the NDP has latched onto....for some strange reason. See you don't see the big deal because it is not your city. I bet it is playing out well for the two NDP MP's who have pointed out it is a bit out of taste to waltz into a town which has been out of work for 8 weeks and hold a 550 dollar a plate dinner. At the sametime as never mentioning the strike or going to the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 That has nothing to do with the Liberals. I wouldn't care if it was my city. No one else should either because the two things are completely unrelated, as they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Representation does not equal assistance because you refuse to do the job you were hired to do. You're operating from the premise that representation equals direct interference in a labor dispute. It doesn't. Nothing gets you nothing and you still haven't answered my question. The government is supported by my tax dollars punked. Why should my tax dollars go to someone who refuses to do their job? Why is the corporation in the wrong and the workers in the right? Is it not the right of the corporation to run its business as it sees fit? If the workers don't like this situation they should seek employment elsewhere, if they're unwilling or unable to find employment elsewhere they should do the job they have and be grateful for it. There are many private sector jobs that have disappeared over the past few months, and I'm certain the company would have no trouble finding replacement workers to fill the vacancies. Because you pay 1/30 000 000th of the taxes in this country and you have an opinion it does not make it right. MY TAX DOLLARS. Those workers paid taxes too. BTW you don't even know what this dispute is about do you? Well resources belong to the people so the Vale Inco doesn't like the peoples demands they can take their mining else where. There may have been many private sector jobs which have vanished these wont be them Vale Inco made 4 000 000 000 from this mine over the last two years in straight profit, Vale should be happy they have great workers who have made them a tidy some of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_ON Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Governments make labour laws so workers like you have some protection.Unions make sure employers follow the laws. Without unions pressing labour issues, you'd still be working for slave wages most of which you give back to the company (store) to pay debts to them. That's how it worked before there were unions. As long as we have unions, some people will complain about them. But if we didn't have unions, someone would create them, because employers will take advantage of workers whenever and however they can. You can choose to work in non-union shops: That's your choice. But don't ever forget that you only have employee rights because unions fought for them. I'm afraid you're quite incorrect in you assumption that unions are the sole defenders of workers rights. I'll grant you that during the time of the industrial revolution they served a purpose, before there were labor laws, and they were even instrumental in the implementation. Now that there are labor laws the union is entirely unnecessary. You don't need a union to ensure that companies are following the labour laws, that's what the labour board is for. Employees always have recourse against their employer if they feel the labour laws have been contravened. A union is not needed for this, the government monitors and investigates all submissions to the labour board and acts accordingly to their findings. I’m afraid I can’t feel sorry for people who aren’t getting paid because they refuse to work. All that unions do now is to create a culture of entitlement that is not in sync with the way the real world works. This country was not built on the principles that whoever has lived here the longest should get the most benefit, as a strong advocate of native rights I’m sure you can agree this is certainly not the case. It was built on those who work hardest reap the greatest rewards. Unions do not encourage this line of thinking, it’s about seniority rather than merit. Sure the guy who’s only been here 2 years is more productive and effective then the guy that’s been here 25 but seniority rules so let’s turf the junior guy. That’s not effective business management and it doesn’t encourage workers to do their best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_ON Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Because you pay 1/30 000 000th of the taxes in this country and you have an opinion it does not make it right. MY TAX DOLLARS. Those workers paid taxes too. BTW you don't even know what this dispute is about do you? Well resources belong to the people so the Vale Inco doesn't like the peoples demands they can take their mining else where. There may have been many private sector jobs which have vanished these wont be them Vale Inco made 4 000 000 000 from this mine over the last two years in straight profit, Vale should be happy they have great workers who have made them a tidy some of money. As you have already pointed out only 20% of workers in this country are unionized. I'm not certain if this figure is accurate or not but I'll assume for the moment it is. That means that 80% of the tax payers in this country aren't unionized and I'm fairly certain they don't want their tax dollars going to people who refuse to work either. Generally the only folks that are pro-union are in a union. The 80% of the rest of us who work in non-unionized private sector jobs feel very differently about the labour market. The line that big corporations don't care, are inherently selfish and evil, etc. etc. is a lie that union activist use to support their often unreasonable demands. For the rest of us supply and demand dictate our wages. Advancement is based; at least for the most part on merit not seniority. Those that work hard deserve to get ahead, those who refuse to work or perform their jobs poorly shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_ON Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 See you don't see the big deal because it is not your city. I bet it is playing out well for the two NDP MP's who have pointed out it is a bit out of taste to waltz into a town which has been out of work for 8 weeks and hold a 550 dollar a plate dinner. At the sametime as never mentioning the strike or going to the city. Correction the town is not out of work, the town is refusing to work due to a labour dispute, their is a difference. Their lack of income is self inflicted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Nope might be why for one night the workers are moving their picket line to outside the Liberal fund raising dinner. Although a Liberal spokes person said they were "helping" by bringing people to spend money in community. Know what might help? Take a stance on Vale-Inco like the NDP did at their convention. No wage cuts during record profit years."We're also going to be spending money, by the way," she told CBC News. "I think we're giving." Liberal MP Maria Minna said. Why are picking on the libs, they aren't the ones in power and when it comes to the Tories helping workers, they usually aren't there, at least NOT for the workers. The only reason the Tories helped the Auto workers was because of Canada'a ecomony NOT for the workers. They could care less, the NDP and the Libs have brought this strike and sell out many times in the Commons and at times it got very heated but the Tories have their usual reply, "We are doing everything we can and we are monitoring the situation" BULL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 That has nothing to do with the Liberals. I wouldn't care if it was my city. No one else should either because the two things are completely unrelated, as they should be. I also don't see it as an issue. The Fundraiser is a separate affair to raise money to get their candidate Elected. I don't believe this has any traction, even within the Local media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I also don't see it as an issue. The Fundraiser is a separate affair to raise money to get their candidate Elected. I don't believe this has any traction, even within the Local media. dissension in the NDP ranks - punked will not be pleased!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Now that there are labor laws the union is entirely unnecessary. You don't need a union to ensure that companies are following the labour laws, that's what the labour board is for. Employees always have recourse against their employer if they feel the labour laws have been contravened. A union is not needed for this, the government monitors and investigates all submissions to the labour board and acts accordingly to their findings. That certainly overlooks a number of issues. One is a Union can keep out the 60 hour work week, or at least maintain the 44 hour work week, if not a 40 hour week. As for the Labour board, if one considers how many Labour violations there are, it is rather absurd to believe the Labour Board will address all the violations, let alone can many people afford to go down this path. Infact, having watched Management, which are also employees, have a difficult time maintaining the funds to take on a company and have to drop out after 6 months, its difficult to believe that either Labour laws or the system is going to take car of everything, anymore then it is reasonable to believe that a Union is going to solve all problems. To suggest that Unions are no longer needed is naive. One factor is that many individuals have no interest in rocking the boat with the company with regards to health and safety violations or other incidents. And while employees are not safe from company reprisals even within a union environment, those individuals feel just that much more secure when bringing forth an issue. Only the people within a Union or those wanting to be in a Union can answer your question on the need of having a Union. The growth of temp agency abuse has given rise to greater interest in Unionization, although I highly doubt the Unionst have picked up on this or know how to organize full time permanent agency workers. Labour laws are good, but there is alot of pressure to backtrack on the ESA and that has occurred in the past. The results of many of those changes are only now making there way through the workplace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 dissension in the NDP ranks - punked will not be pleased!!! You missed the other post where I said it wasn't a bad PR move. However, that doesn't let Ignatieff off the hook by redefining torture to a level of torture he feels is acceptable. Regardless, I am certain Ignatieff won't be speaking about his positions on Torture or Naked Aggression at these fund raisers either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Why are picking on the libs, they aren't the ones in power and when it comes to the Tories helping workers, they usually aren't there, at least NOT for the workers. The only reason the Tories helped the Auto workers was because of Canada'a ecomony NOT for the workers. That would be the same position the Liberals support.They could care less, the NDP and the Libs have brought this strike and sell out many times in the Commons and at times it got very heated but the Tories have their usual reply, "We are doing everything we can and we are monitoring the situation" BULL! The difficulty is that the Liberals are full of hot air and wouldn't do anything differently if in power. Many times during their reign similar events occurred with no a wit of interest from the LPC. The NDP haven't the ability to effect change. Its not unusual for the Liberals to sing from the same songbook as the NDP when it suits their needs, which is to attain power. Economically there is little difference between the Liberals and the Conservatives except that the Liberals could run a surplus and the Conservatives a deficit with regards to running a government. Mindyou, the Liberals Stole 48 Billions from EI which is why they can't call an election on the EI file. Any picking on political parties is often well deserved, and one of the best reasons for me to come on MLW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 They really don't get it. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/silve...article1270624/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 They really don't get it.http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/silve...article1270624/ muhahaha! First NDP madmax lines up with the King of the Blogging Tories... now punked reaches out to the G&M's Conservative delivery boy. Guys, guys - does this NDP-Conservative coalition thingee really have any legs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 And the other one to help out the striking workers no Liberal MP has talked about? Think we have already shown that dog won't hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I thought the Liberal Dinner was about fundraising for the Liberal Party. And you think it has nothing to do with PR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 See you don't see the big deal because it is not your city. I bet it is playing out well for the two NDP MP's who have pointed out it is a bit out of taste to waltz into a town which has been out of work for 8 weeks and hold a 550 dollar a plate dinner. At the sametime as never mentioning the strike or going to the city. I see two scared NDPers knowing the Liberals will be coming after them strongly. I see one scared NDPer prepared to bloviate about no one cares for the people of the mine and then dismissing evidence given that it isn't true. Shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 They really don't get it. This is a Tory blogger. It is about as partisan as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted September 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I see two scared NDPers knowing the Liberals will be coming after them strongly. I see one scared NDPer prepared to bloviate about no one cares for the people of the mine and then dismissing evidence given that it isn't true. Shame. Funny I see the NDP getting a lot of press on the Liberals weekend. The Liberals had to threaten an election again to change the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Funny I see the NDP getting a lot of press on the Liberals weekend. The Liberals had to threaten an election again to change the story. As I said: scared NDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted September 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) As I said: scared NDP. No one is scared here Dobbin, we have been in the wilderness, we have brought down the government on real issues only to reward the Liberals in the past, I don't think anyone in our party is scare of losing. If we were we would be Liberals. I find it funny though that you have resorted to the "CHICKEN Buck Buck Buck CHICKEN" thing after you leaders have spent the last three years running from issue to issue. Ironic. Edited September 1, 2009 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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