Duty to consult Aboriginal communities

tango · August 19, 2009

De Beers worried about Mining Act changes

Changes could drive away investors

The Ontario Legislature Standing Committee hearings for the Mining Act, held in Timmins Thursday, also heard from the mining industry as it pertains to Attawapiskat.

...

Gowans said the proposals “would introduce additional layers of uncertainty, bureaucracy and financial burden” for any mining company working in the far north and especially for those trying to work with Aboriginal communities.

Gowans endorsed an opinion already voiced by the City of Timmins and the Porcupine Prospectors Association about the proposed consultation process with First Nations.

Gowans expressed concern that the province wants to “download” the legal responsibility for Aboriginal consultations with mining companies and corporations instead of doing the job itself.

“The language in the proposed bill appears contradictory to the consistent rulings of the Court that the duty to consult lies with the Crown,” said Gowans.

...

Gowans said another concern is the arbitrary decision by the Ontario liberal government to block off 50 per cent of the lands in the Far North as not being open to any development.

“These resources are where Nature places them,” said Gowans in reference to the need to search for more mineral deposits.

more ...

http://www.timminstimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1706510

My opinion is ... it's about time that Indigenous people had a say in the toxic mining operations that ruin entire watersheds.

BOYCOTT DIAMONDS! I say.

And see ... 'Duty of the Crown to consult and to accommodate Aboriginal rights'.

Many references available. Here's one:

http://www.aalec.ca/page?u=duty-to-consult

Edited August 19, 2009 by tango

Bonam · August 19, 2009

Yeah because more red tape and thus less investment in and around native communities is so great for them...

tango · August 19, 2009

Yeah because more red tape and thus less investment in and around native communities is so great for them...

That's their decision, and that's why consultation is required, and accommodation of their land rights.

Up until now, they've had no say at all, and received no 'royalties', etc, for the wealth taken from their traditional land. The operations often poison their water, soil and air, destroying traditional foods and ways of life ... and they had no say at all.

That's changed now due to the Supreme Court.

Bonam · August 19, 2009

Up until now, they've had no say at all,

That's not true. Consultation has been happening for a long time on just about any project undertaken in or affecting native lands. Hell we even had a whole course on consulting natives and considering aboriginal rights and claims back in my undergrad engineering studies.

From the article you quoted, it seems that the issue here is the precise mechanics of how these consultations have to take place. If this places a greater burden on businesses that would potentially invest in the area, then investment will decrease. Pretty simple.

and received no 'royalties', etc, for the wealth taken from their traditional land.

This is where people who share your cause alienate most reasonable leaders. Wealth is not "taken", wealth is created. "Wealth" is not just lying around, waiting for someone to come and steal it. It takes investment, knowledge, foresight, manpower, infrastructure, etc, to successfully harvest resources or undertake any other project and create wealth.

As for royalties... I can see that in some cases, but generally it should not be necessary. The benefit to the community comes from the employment and investment in the area that comes with the undertaking of an industrial or commercial project.

The operations often poison their water, soil and air, destroying traditional foods and ways of life

Environmental concerns affect everyone, not just natives. We have agencies that are supposed to ensure that projects are not undertaken unless environmental standards have been met and safeguards implemented. If these agencies are letting through projects that "poison water, soil, and air" and destroy "food and ways of life", then they are failing us and need to be closely reviewed. Careless destruction of the environment is no less tragic in non-native lands than it is in native lands.

tango · August 19, 2009

That's not true. Consultation has been happening for a long time on just about any project undertaken in or affecting native lands. Hell we even had a whole course on consulting natives and considering aboriginal rights and claims back in my undergrad engineering studies.

Wow! I'm impressed. Cool. Of course, it has effectively been the law since 1982. However, governments for the most part have ignored it and so have many companies. This is (finally) the codification in provincial law of what has been constitutional law until now. Yes, there have been companies that have respected and consulted with Indigenous communities. Now the ones who haven't are finally forced to as well, following some of the 'best practices' of those who led the way over the last 25 years.

From the article you quoted, it seems that the issue here is the precise mechanics of how these consultations have to take place. If this places a greater burden on businesses that would potentially invest in the area, then investment will decrease. Pretty simple.
This is where people who share your cause alienate most reasonable leaders. Wealth is not "taken", wealth is created. "Wealth" is not just lying around, waiting for someone to come and steal it. It takes investment, knowledge, foresight, manpower, infrastructure, etc, to successfully harvest resources or undertake any other project and create wealth.

As for royalties... I can see that in some cases, but generally it should not be necessary. The benefit to the community comes from the employment and investment in the area that comes with the undertaking of an industrial or commercial project.

Environmental concerns affect everyone, not just natives. We have agencies that are supposed to ensure that projects are not undertaken unless environmental standards have been met and safeguards implemented. If these agencies are letting through projects that "poison water, soil, and air" and destroy "food and ways of life", then they are failing us and need to be closely reviewed. Careless destruction of the environment is no less tragic in non-native lands than it is in native lands.

I absolutely agree. Now can you explain to me how all of our environmental safeguards still allow the government to propose using 16 pristine northern lakes (and their watersheds) as toxic dumps for the mining industry?

http://www.miningwatch.ca/index.php?/mmer

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/16/...mned-lakes.html

It's been my observation that the 'environmental safeguards' we have never actually interfere with the industry: Just pretty words on pretty papers signifying nothing.

For example ... Simcoe County: Despite meeting environmental standards, all three previous landfills in the County are toxic nightmares.

Edited August 19, 2009 by tango

tango · August 19, 2009

This is interesting and indicative of the manner of implementing Sec 35 of our Constitution 'on the ground':

14-jun-07

Community Policy Statement

Working with Aboriginal Communities

De Beers Canada* acknowledges the status of aboriginal people of Canada and their constitutionally entrenched rights. In working with aboriginal people, De Beers Canada will ensure that this status and their rights are respected, and will work to strike a balance between these considerations and other economic, social and environmental responsibilities.

more ...

http://www.debeerscanada.com/files_2/community_policy.html

I'm wondering where all the usual naysaying voices are who usually attack Aboriginal topics with such vigour?

Perhaps they truly are not aware of the current state of the law and are speechless?

Edited August 19, 2009 by tango

tango · August 19, 2009

The other side of the story ... coming to Toronto tomorrow:

Attawapiskat protesting at DeBeers office

By tbnewswatch staff

The Attawapiskat First Nation is pressing for a better deal from the DeBeers diamond mine near that community on the Jame Bay coast.

About 50 band members travelled to Toronto to stage a protest Wednesday outside the DeBeers Canada Office.

Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Hall said the wealth generated at the mines is not being distributed fairly.

more ...

http://www.tbnewswatch.com/News/?cid=63731

A remote fly in community, Attawapiskat is confronted with significant

challenges, which it cannot remedy for lack of funding. These include an acute

housing shortage, overcrowding, toxic contamination of its school and homes,

and other public health and safety issues such as the failed sewage system

which is backing up and requiring the mass evacuation of residents. The

community is deeply concerned that only a fair and equitable distribution of

wealth from the commercial mining activities in its traditional territory will

permit it to address the crisis management demanded by its inadequate

educational, public health, and physical infrastructure systems.

more ...

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive...9/19/c6187.html

As I recall, this is the community that had to close its school due to fuel contamination, and Indian Affairs refused to help.

Ah yes, here it is ...

M.Dancer · August 19, 2009

A remote fly in community, Attawapiskat is confronted with significant
challenges, which it cannot remedy for lack of funding. These include an acute

housing shortage, overcrowding, toxic contamination of its school and homes,

and other public health and safety issues such as the failed sewage system

which is backing up and requiring the mass evacuation of residents. The

community is deeply concerned that only a fair and equitable distribution of

wealth from the commercial mining activities in its traditional territory will

permit it to address the crisis management demanded by its inadequate

educational, public health, and physical infrastructure systems.

As I recall, this is the community that had to close its school due to fuel contamination, and Indian Affairs refused to help.

Ah yes, here it is ...

It's a real shame there are communities that are so bankrupt of intellectual capital they cannot look after themselves without relying on extortion or welfare. If it wasn't for the Great White Father to take cafe of them....

Bonam · August 19, 2009

So here they are stating that their only lifeline to get out of their crisis is the wealth being generated by this mining operation, and yet they want to make it more difficult and less likely for companies to invest in other such operations?

Their approach is self-defeating.

How is the wealth supposed to be "distributed"? This is not a communist state. The company pays the people who work there and invests in infrastructure and facilities at its work sites. Profits are used to expand the company's operations and to pay dividends for the shareholders.

If this operation is "near the community" in question, then most likely members of that community have the opportunity to be employed in this mining operation. If the company is employing the people there and paying them reasonable wages for the types of work they are doing, then it has done its part, and the rest is up to the community to figure out how to deal with their crises. If the community is a municipality and the mining site within its jurisdiction, then they can also collect taxes.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Bonam

tango · August 19, 2009

It's a real shame there are communities that are so bankrupt of intellectual capital they cannot look after themselves without relying on extortion or welfare. If it wasn't for the Great White Father to take cafe of them....

It's a real shame that you are so bankrupt of intellectual capacity you are only capable of ignorant racial slurs.

I think you have a better life coming ... as a dancing pig ... and we get to throw slop at YOU!

:rolleyes: :lol:

tango · August 19, 2009

So here they are stating that their only lifeline to get out of their crisis is the wealth being generated by this mining operation, and yet they want to make it more difficult and less likely for companies to invest in other such operations?
Their approach is self-defeating.

How can it be? Up until now they've got NOTHING from toxic operations on their land. It can only get better.

How is the wealth supposed to be "distributed"? This is not a communist state. The company pays the people who work there and invests in infrastructure and facilities at its work sites. Profits are used to expand the company's operations and to pay dividends for the shareholders.
If this operation is "near the community" in question, then most likely members of that community have the opportunity to be employed in this mining operation. If the company is employing the people there and paying them reasonable wages for the types of work they are doing, then it has done its part, and the rest is up to the community to figure out how to deal with their crises. If the community is a municipality and the mining site within its jurisdiction, then they can also collect taxes.

Those are the things they are negotiating, but they are entitled to some form of royalties/dividends as well - It is their land, their diamonds, their investment.

If you don't agree ... take it to the Supreme Court. (You'll lose.)

Edited August 19, 2009 by tango

M.Dancer · August 19, 2009

It's a real shame that you are so bankrupt of intellectual capacity you are only capable of ignorant racial slurs.
I think you have a better life coming ... as a dancing pig ... and we get to throw slop at YOU!

Racial slurs? Nonsense.... but if my sewage backs up I don't have to whine and complain. I call a plumber.

Maybe they should consider learning the basics, first part is easy....shit flows downhill.

tango · August 20, 2009

Racial slurs? Nonsense.... but if my sewage backs up I don't have to whine and complain. I call a plumber.

Do you know a plumber who can fix the whole town's sewage for free? They have no money to pay for it, and the feds won't help. Seems to have something to do with the mining development. Does your plumber make house calls to Attiwapiskat?

http://www.maplandia.com/canada/ontario/ke...t/attawapiskat/

http://wawataynews.ca/archive/all/2009/8/6...by-sewage_17818

Maybe read up a bit before passing ignorant judgment. <_<

'Indian' Affairs is responsible for housing - part of the agreement when they were forced onto 'reserves'.

You can tell the quality of 'housing' INAC provides. :rolleyes:

Housing designed to kill, imo.

Edited August 20, 2009 by tango

M.Dancer · August 20, 2009

Do you know a plumber who can fix the whole town's sewage for free? They have no money to pay for it, and the feds won't help. Seems to have something to do with the mining development. Does your plumber make house calls to Attiwapiskat?
Maybe read up a bit before passing ignorant judgment.

I agree, they don't have the intellectual capital to do it themselves. Amazing that a town can't find it necessary to train plumbers. Instead, they rely on the tradition of welfare.

Fixing their sewage is a temporary measure. First they should learn the basics on municiple planning and get their youth into trade schools.

tango · August 20, 2009

I agree, they don't have the intellectual capital to do it themselves. Amazing that a town can't find it necessary to train plumbers. Instead, they rely on the tradition of welfare.
Fixing their sewage is a temporary measure. First they should learn the basics on municiple planning and get their youth into trade schools.

First you should look in the mirror to see what a disgusting fucking racist pig looks like!!

M.Dancer · August 20, 2009

First you should look in the mirror to see what a disgusting fucking racist pig looks like!!

So you think expecting communities to be able to take care of themselves racist? You think that civil engineering is a skill fit only for white people? That indians need only the skill to beg?

I think when you look in the mirror, a clueless bimbo stares back vacantly .

tango · August 20, 2009

So you think expecting communities to be able to take care of themselves racist?

This is racist:

M. Dancer: I agree, they don't have the intellectual capital to do it themselves.

report

ignore

Edited August 20, 2009 by tango

DogOnPorch · August 20, 2009

I agree, they don't have the intellectual capital to do it themselves. Amazing that a town can't find it necessary to train plumbers. Instead, they rely on the tradition of welfare.
Fixing their sewage is a temporary measure. First they should learn the basics on municiple planning and get their youth into trade schools.

My thoughts exactly. Plus seeing how much leg-up the average Native Indian can get from either his/her band or the government(s), you'd wonder why the Reserve isn't overrun with civic planers, engineers, plumbers and electricians.

DogOnPorch · August 20, 2009

This is racist:
report

ignore

He was just agreeing with YOUR statement.

Riverwind · August 20, 2009

First you should look in the mirror to see what a disgusting fucking racist pig looks like!!

Ever heard of sarcasm?

So tell us why natives can't train there own plumbers and fix the sewers themselves?

Unlike non-natives they do get free post secondary education after all.

Griz · August 20, 2009

The first 12 years of education is free for everybody...why don't you whine about that with your soiled-diaper and snotty-nose dripping? gee you and messed-up mutt dog and lictor would make a good group? It's the likes of you that shoot wild horses in Alberta just to get your cheap thrills

Ever heard of sarcasm?
So tell us why natives can't train there own plumbers and fix the sewers themselves?

Unlike non-natives they do get free post secondary education after all.

Bonam · August 20, 2009

First you should look in the mirror to see what a disgusting fucking racist pig looks like!!

The first 12 years of education is free for everybody...why don't you whine about that with your soiled-diaper and snotty-nose dripping? gee you and messed-up mutt dog and lictor would make a good group? It's the likes of you that shoot wild horses in Alberta just to get your cheap thrills

See this is the problem with many of you native activists. As soon as someone disagrees, you start flinging insults, slurs, and baseless accusations. And of course playing the race card without any cause.

Pointing out that natives already get certain advantages such as free post secondary education is racist now? Mentioning that sewage problems can be fixed by plumbers and that the community may benefit from training some rather than expecting someone else to do it is racist?

You guys need to get a grip and stop seeing your bogeyman around every corner and under every rock.

Griz · August 20, 2009

Explain what you mean by free? Is it the same as all the free-land you land squatting terrorist got? The indians have paid dearly just for being the first people here. Oh and what do you mean by "you guys?" Maybe you should quit playing the race card there bucko It is way more complicated than what you make it out to be? Not every native has access to that funding? I bet you don't even know how many live off reserve? In case you forgot, the so-called benefits are very limited. Why is there so much poverty on some reserves? You didnt even bother answering to my point about all the free education everybody gets in the first 12 years of public school? Did that bewilder you or something? Or do you conveniently just shuffle that under the rug and blame the indians for whatever you can when it comes to all the ills of this dysfunctional society we have with all you so-called civilized, diaper-filled land squatters.

See this is the problem with many of you native activists. As soon as someone disagrees, you start flinging insults, slurs, and baseless accusations. And of course playing the race card without any cause.
Pointing out that natives already get certain advantages such as free post secondary education is racist now? Mentioning that sewage problems can be fixed by plumbers and that the community may benefit from training some rather than expecting someone else to do it is racist?

You guys need to get a grip and stop seeing your bogeyman around every corner and under every rock.

Bonam · August 20, 2009

Just for the heck of it, I'll respond to your post point by point:

Explain what you mean by free? Is it the same as all the free-land you land squatting terrorist got?

Nice, so we're all terrorists now. Great argument there.

The indians have paid dearly just for being the first people here.

Indeed? How did they pay for it? By having thousands of years to do whatever they wanted with the place before anyone came and disturbed them?

Oh and what do you mean by "you guys?"

In this case, you and Tango. Although Tango seems somewhat more reasonable than yourself.

Maybe you should quit playing the race card there bucko

I point out your rampant and obvious hatred of people of European descent, as clearly expressed both here and in another thread, nothing more. Had your statements been made in regards to any other racial group, it would have been cause for being banned from these forums.

It is way more complicated than what you make it out to be? Not every native has access to that funding? I bet you don't even know how many live off reserve? In case you forgot, the so-called benefits are very limited. Why is there so much poverty on some reserves?

All completely beside the point. But then, I don't suppose you know what the point is supposed to be. After all, you are probably frothing at the mouth with raging hatred.

You didnt even bother answering to my point about all the free education everybody gets in the first 12 years of public school?

If everyone get's it then what's the problem?

Did that bewilder you or something?

No, it was just irrelevant, like much of the rest of your post.

Or do you conveniently just shuffle that under the rug and blame the indians for whatever you can when it comes to all the ills of this dysfunctional society we have with all you so-called civilized, diaper-filled land squatters.

Our society is not dysfunctional; it is in fact one of the best functioning societies around the world. Furthermore, what is your fixation with diapers?