Pay up or leave

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe some of the other diseases like ditheria, typhoid, cholera. Or maybe variola did gain a foothold among Florida natives and then raced uimpeded accross the continent.

The diseases you mention are more associated with crowded unsanitary conditions as found in early industrial Europe. None of these were common on the high prairie. The spread of variola accross the America's can be attributed to the horse as much as anything.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Trouble with your little theory is that the fort Ahmherst wanted to attack was something like 200 miles away. The smallpox infested blankets would have long stopped being a viable vector by the time they made the trip to the region. Not to mention they knew nothing of viability at the time, anyways.

My theory...a 'white guy' and an 'indian' meet in the bush..."achoo"...'white guy' sneezes...'indian' breathes in virus...goes back to his villiage...sneezes...repeat...etc.

What I ment is smallpox is only contagious when a person is already very sick with a fever, malaise, head and body aches, and sometimes vomiting and is contagious until sores break out scab and then fall off. If you have a fever are you gonna go out into the bushes? No your gonna stay in bed untill the fever breaks and your healthy again. So the only reason someone would be out with all that is to infect people with it.

[benny]

Trouble with your little theory is that the fort Ahmherst wanted to attack was something like 200 miles away. The smallpox infested blankets would have long stopped being a viable vector by the time they made the trip to the region. Not to mention they knew nothing of viability at the time, anyways.

Amherst's reasoning can have been: we don't know, let's try it.

Edited August 18, 2009 by benny

[DogOnPorch]

Amherst's reasoning can have been: we don't know, let's try it.

...and we'll never know if that speculation on your part is even close to being true.

I could say the future ghost of Robert E Lee planned it all in a bizarre plot to save Virginia from the carpetbaggers. It would hold about as much water...or BS...your choice.

[benny]

...and we'll never know if that speculation on your part is even close to being true.

Morality is all about acting in that kind of uncertainty.

[DogOnPorch]

What I ment is smallpox is only contagious when a person is already very sick with a fever, malaise, head and body aches, and sometimes vomiting and is contagious until sores break out scab and then fall off. If you have a fever are you gonna go out into the bushes? No your gonna stay in bed untill the fever breaks and your healthy again. So the only reason someone would be out with all that is to infect people with it.

There's a minor and a major form of the virus's inifection. Plus there's several strains of the virus itself. But keep reading, you'll see for yourself how unlikely it would have been. Far more likely a friendly Voyager with what appeared to be the common cold.

Edited August 18, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[Guest TrueMetis]

There's a minor and a major form of the viruses inifection. Plus there's several strains of the virus itself. But keep reading, you'll see for yourself how unlikely it would have been. Far more likely a friendly Voyager with what appeared to be the common cold.

The first symptom of small pox is fever. It doesn't look like a common cold.

[DogOnPorch]

The first symptom of small pox is fever. It doesn't look like a common cold.

Fever is indeed a symptom of the common cold and a whole host of other things.

Edited August 18, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[Guest TrueMetis]

Fever is indeed a symptom of the common cold and a whole host of other things.

The Smallpox fever is usually high, in the range of 101 to 104 degrees Fahrenheit. At this time, people are usually too sick to carry on their normal activities.

Smallpox source

The Common symptoms are cough, sore throat, runny nose, blocked nose, and sneezing; sometimes accompanied by 'pink eye', muscle aches, fatigue, malaise, headaches, muscle weakness, uncontrollable shivering, loss of appetite, and rarely extreme exhaustion. Fever is more commonly a symptom of influenza, another viral upper respiratory tract infection (URTI) whose symptoms broadly overlap with the cold[1] but are more severe.[2] Symptoms may be more severe in infants and young children.

Those suffering from colds often report a sensation of chilliness even though the cold is not generally accompanied by fever, and although chills are generally associated with fever, the sensation may not always be caused by actual fever.[1] In one study, 60% of those suffering from a sore throat and upper respiratory tract infection reported headaches[1], often due to nasal congestion. The symptoms of a cold usually resolve after about one week, but can last up to three weeks.

Common cold source

So no fever is not a symptom of the common cold.

Edited August 18, 2009 by TrueMetis

[benny]

The Smallpox fever is usually high

You are wasting our time with all these information since the real question is: was it our duty to research all the effects of virus sooner than what historically we have done.

[DogOnPorch]

Generally you're free to believe what you'd like. If you want to believe that Europeans intentionally spread variola to the Native Indian populations (pl), so be it. Nothing I say is going to change your mind. However, I'd hazard a guess you also think 9-11 was an inside job and the Moon Landings were fake.

[benny]

Generally you're free to believe what you'd like. If you want to believe that Europeans intentionally spread variola to the Native Indian populations (pl), so be it.

The intention was there on the part of Amherst that is documented.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Generally you're free to believe what you'd like. If you want to believe that Europeans intentionally spread variola to the Native Indian populations (pl), so be it. Nothing I say is going to change your mind. However, I'd hazard a guess you also think 9-11 was an inside job and the Moon Landings were fake.

911 was a bunch of fucked up terrorists and the moon landing was real. What I don't understand how you could accidentally wipe out 95% of a population.

[DogOnPorch]

The intention was there on the part of Amherst that is documented.

Indeed. But once again...no matter what Amherst thought...that's not how variola spread across the Americas. Also overlooked is that he'd be infecting Europeans as well as Native Indians. It was particularly vicious in that it did hang around, slowly incubating for nearly two weeks, allowing the victim to travel some distance before falling over dead (or recovering).

[Guest TrueMetis]

Indeed. But once again...no matter what Amherst thought...that's not how variola spread across the Americas. Also overlooked is that he'd be infecting Europeans as well as Native Indians. It was particularly vicious in that it did hang around, slowly incubating for nearly two weeks, allowing the victim to travel some distance before falling over dead (or recovering).

When there is no symptoms and no chance of infection untill they get a fever then they aren't going anywere until it breaks.

[benny]

What I don't understand how you could accidentally wipe out 95% of a population.

Unless one shows that the race of all the European colonial powers to conquer the (New) World was itself an accident of history.

[DogOnPorch]

911 was a bunch of fucked up terrorists and the moon landing was real. What I don't understand how you could accidentally wipe out 95% of a population.

I hear some idiots think HIV was created in a government lab, too. I'd hate to be lumped-in with weirdos like that.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Unless one shows that the race of all the European colonial powers to conquer the (New) World was itself an accident of history.

What?

[DogOnPorch]

When there is no symptoms and no chance of infection untill they get a fever then they aren't going anywere until it breaks.

Volia! Now you're getting it. Eaglefeather made it back to the villiage and now he's sick? What to do?? Better bathe him in cool wet rags. A few days pass........

[Guest TrueMetis]

Volia! Now you're getting it. Eaglefeather made it back to the villiage and now he's sick? What to do?? Better bathe him in cool wet rags. A few days pass........

No you don't get it it is imposible to get it from someone until the fever presents once the fever presents the person isn't going anywere. Even back then people avoided the sick it's instinct.

[benny]

Indeed. But once again...no matter what Amherst thought...that's not how variola spread across the Americas. Also overlooked is that he'd be infecting Europeans as well as Native Indians. It was particularly vicious in that it did hang around, slowly incubating for nearly two weeks, allowing the victim to travel some distance before falling over dead (or recovering).

What is reprehensible still today is that Europeans were more eager to gamble with human lives than the Natives were.

[DogOnPorch]

No you don't get it it is imposible to get it from someone until the fever presents once the fever presents the person isn't going anywere. Even back then people avoided the sick it's instinct.

lol...no it is you that do not understand.

Once the virus is in your system, you have several days where you can move across country without showing symptoms. Once it reaches its infectious state, who the hell knows where the victim might end up? Could be hundreds of miles away. What Europeans had that the Native Indians didn't is some basic immunities which meant variola killed only about 30% of the cases...more if dealing with the hemorrhagic strains. Survivors were scared for life. Native Indians generally did not have these immunities so even a 'mild' case of variola often killed them deader than a doornail. A small percentage did have some natural immunities and thus survived to tell the tale.

Cowpox was where the first innoculations came from; it was noted that milkmaids generally didn't catch variola while they did generally catch the cowpox rash which affected the hands.

Edited August 18, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[benny]

Once the virus is in your system, you have several days where you can move across country without showing symptoms. Once it reaches its infectious state, who the hell knows where the victim might end up? Could be hundreds of miles away. What Europeans had that the Native Indians didn't is some basic immunities which meant variola killed only about 30% of the cases...more if dealing with the hemorrhagic strains. Survivors were scared for life. Native Indians generally did not have these immunities so even a 'mild' case of variola often killed them deader than a doornail. A small percentage did have some natural immunities and thus survived to tell the tale.

These (different) survival rates should have been discussed at the time as one of the determining factors in Europeans' decisions to make deals or not with the Natives.

Edited August 18, 2009 by benny

[DogOnPorch]

These (different) survival rates should have been discussed at the time as one of the determining factors in Europeans' decisions to make deals or not with the Natives.

Marilyn Monroe should have made another movie. But...alas...

[benny]

Marilyn Monroe should have made another movie. But...alas...

irrelevant