Who's afraid of China?

[MapleLeafMerc]

Many people are imitating Chicken Little when it comes to discussing free trade among nations, especially China. Outsourcing, cheap labour, yadda, yadda, yadda...we're all going to die!

"On April 5, 2004, the WTO published that China's imports increased by 40% while its exports grew by 5%. China leapfrogged three positions and ranks for the first time as number three among the world's leading merchandise importers. Please join us to examine how China can sustain its tremendous growth, the revolutionary reforms that are driving this economic powerhouse, and what business opportunities are opening up."

Attention, all anti-free traders: China's BUYING is growing faster than their SELLING.

[August1991]

China's BUYING is growing faster than their SELLING.

Got me there. Sorry, do you mean China exports more/less than it imports?

Outsourcing, cheap labour, yadda, yadda, yadda...we're all going to die!

No problem with this one. The great advantage of our species is our ability to communicate (and trade).

"Outsourcing" is just a way to arrange things differently.

Cheap labour? Well, cheap for Canadians but a good job for others. (Have you ever got the job/promotion you wanted and celebrated after? Have you ever thought that your employer probably celebrated too because you accepted such a low "price".)

Finally, let's make it easy to talk, trade, outsource - and who cares if cellphone companies or Internet providers make money in the process. We're talking, trading. We're doing better the human thing. We're co-operating.

[playfullfellow]

Cheap labour? Well, cheap for Canadians but a good job for others. (Have you ever got the job/promotion you wanted and celebrated after? Have you ever thought that your employer probably celebrated too because you accepted such a low "price".)

Yeppers, I know my boss celebrates everytime I get a paycheque but then again, I dont feel bad or ripped off everytime, I know I work hard for my boss and she treats me right in return.

China, as a trading partner has tremendous potential to any country that wants to negotiate in trade. But this has to be a country that does not try to negotiate human rights and such into the deals. China will continue to do as China sees fit to when dealing with it's own populace. But I think that the trade off will be that if China becomes a more prosperous country, the living standards will improve for most Chinese. China still deals with disidents in a very brutal manner and that will not change with threats. If the populace has a better living standard, then there will be less dissent.

[August1991]

Yeppers, I know my boss celebrates everytime I get a paycheque but then again, I dont feel bad or ripped off everytime, I know I work hard for my boss and she treats me right in return.

Life, truly, is a two way street.

IOW, the more chances we have to take that two-way street the better we all are. Or, I never did like one-way streets. Or, two way streets are "globalisation".

[August1991]

China still deals with disidents in a very brutal manner and that will not change with threats. If the populace has a better living standard, then there will be less dissent.

Do you mean that "China equals Chinese Government"? IOW, what is "China"?

Populace? Dissent? Living standard? Sorry, I'm confused.

[KrustyKidd]

If the populace has a better living standard, then there will be less dissent.

So true. Inept Governments keep disatified populations in check with force. When the people are happy and prosperous, the Government is happy and prosperous. Seems like a universal equation to me. If it could be applied to countries that have lots of terrorist recruits, it could almost be looked at as a deterent to terror.

[d4dev]

If the populace has a better living standard, then there will be less dissent.

Oh, no no no. As the USsays, fuck the standards of living.

What about freedom of speech? Now that's important.

[playfullfellow]

Do you mean that "China equals Chinese Government"? IOW, what is "China"?

Sorry, still new to forums, yes, I mean the Chinese government when stating China. I also mean that when the living standard for the average citizen of a country improves, they tend to have less to complain about which in turn means the government relaxes a bit. Through work, I have dealt with people from China who are been members of the communist party and some who have not. They both tend to say the same thing, that China as whole is becoming more modern and that the Chinese government is allowing more freedoms to its people. They are many years away from becoming a democracy (if ever) but their standard of living as a whole has improved vastly in the past 10-15 years.

[August1991]

Inept Governments keep disatified populations in check with force. When the people are happy and prosperous, the Government is happy and prosperous. Seems like a universal equation to me.

That's demonstrably false. The idiots who flew those planes into those big buildings came from Saudi Arabia - a very prosperous society where ordinary people enjoy a high standard of living.

[KrustyKidd]

Saudi Arabia rich? Yes indeed for the 1% that control the weath it is a thrieving wonderland. Fot the rest, even averaged out they are poor.

GDP per capita

34. Portugal $10789.91 per person

35. Slovenia $10046.78 per person

36. Barbados $9427.79 per person

37. Antigua and Barbuda $9232.08 per person

38. Malta $9082.78 per person

39. Saint Kitts and Nevis $7708.11 per person

40. Saudi Arabia $7450.44 per person

41. Trinidad and Tobago $7071.84 per person

42. Argentina $6711.26 per person

43. Palau $6705.68 per person

44. Seychelles $6687.77 per person

45. Uruguay $5621.88 per person

.

NATION MASTER

[August1991]

The following are GDP per capita in 2002 purcashing power parity to convert currencies to US dollars:

US $36,300

Canada $29,300

Kuwait $17,500

Saudi Arabia $11,400

Poland $9,700

Mexico $8,900

World $7,900

GDP Data from CIA World Factbook

Saudi Arabia in fact is a rather egalitarian society.

The system of subsidies, the large public sector, and free education and healthcare have helped to distribute the kingdom's oil wealth among its citizens. Moreover, public housing has been readily available; all adult Saudis, provided they are not independently wealthy, are entitled to a plot of land and a loan of SR299,600 (US$80,000) to build a house.

Economist Intelligence Unit on Saudi Arabia

My point here is not to discuss the economic situation in Saudi Arabia. Rather, it's to dispense with this crazy idea that poverty is the "root cause" of terrorism.

[KrustyKidd]

LOL. Good one! They really have choice there too, civil liberties are worse there than China for crying out loud!

Bottom 100 countries of the world on civil liberties from NATIONMASTER

Turkmenistan 0 (2001)

2. Libya 0 (2001)

3. Korea, North 0 (2001)

4. Sudan 0 (2001)

5. Syria 0 (2001)

6. Burma 0 (2001)

7. Cuba 0 (2001)

8. Saudi Arabia 0 (2001)

9. Iraq 0 (2001)

10. Rwanda 0.5 (2001)

11. Laos 0.5 (2001)

12. Bhutan 0.5 (2001)

13. Vietnam 0.5 (2001)

14. Cameroon 0.5 (2001)

15. Uzbekistan 0.5 (2001)

16. China 0.5 (2001)

17. Somalia 0.5 (2001)

I agree that poverty is not the 'root' cause of terrorism but it lends itself to the ability to find people that have nothing to lose by becomming it's recruits. People that have nowhere to turn, people that have no outlet, people that only have control when they are kiling somebody. People that are in places where they dare not speak out and yes, people that are poor. As in much of the third world.

As for the individuals that flew the planes on 9 11, they all had their own reasons I am sure. Ego, religion, hatred, whatever. I also would observe that it would be a hard convincing gig to have a water buffalo shepard from Somalia pull off a pilot's position so these individuals are hardly representative of the overall makeup of a terrorist.

[August1991]

China at 0.5 and Saudi Arabia at 0 hardly makes a difference. In any case, the "scale" is completely arbitrary - but not inaccurate in my view. What a rogue's gallery!

From what I understand, the pilots were Saudi because they could 1) get into the US easily and 2) get into pilot school.

And finally, why are we not fearful of impoverished Chinese (caused by US exploitative trade policies) protesting dictatorship (US supported) by flying planes into big Western buildings?

Where is a Noam Chmosky analysis when you need one?

[KrustyKidd]

Exactly. It hardly makes a diffence at all. They are crap for money, crap for human rights and crap for taking care of it's own. As for the pilots, you understand well why it was they. It's the same reason that anybody can be a terrorist, appeal to some cord in their soul and they become one.

Where is a Noam Chmosky analysis when you need one?

Don't need him. Just remember, it's all the fault of the USA.

[Argus]

Well, I don't know what their overall import/export figures look like. I do know that Canada is running a large and growing trade deficit with them. I'd be interested to know just who is running a surplus. I'm sure it isn't the Americans. From what I understand we basically export food and raw materials, while they are selling us everything from small appliances to shoes and furniture.

I don't trust the fairness of China as a trading partner. From all I've heard their government is thorougly corrupt (even by Liberal Party standards) and they have to be partners in any project. Then there are limits to what profits you can take out of China. Finally, they are using their profits to modernize their enormous military. Given the rigid totalitarian nature of the Chinese Communist government that should be cause for concern for anyone. Is China going to modernize into a worldwide threat to replace the one the Soviet Union presented to the world?