CPC Hijacking The Senate?

punked · July 9, 2009

No, it isn't. It's merely one part of the legislative process, which itself is but one part of governance. As I said, your mistake lies in believing the Senate is the sole organ of government.

Where did I say that? I just think the minority of Senate appointments should not get any say on what happens in this country.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

Well too bad. The founding documents of this country disagree, and they are very difficult to change.

punked · July 9, 2009

Well too bad. The founding documents of this country disagree, and they are very difficult to change.

Yah I hate when things are difficult better just give up now...............wait I minute that is silly.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

You're welcome to try as hard as you want. I'll keep fighting the change from my end.

punked · July 9, 2009

You're welcome to try as hard as you want. I'll keep fighting the change from my end.

So let me get this straight, you like having non elected officials representing you? 80% of Canada who says their needs to be Senate reform is wrong? K keep with that.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

About 80% of people (or higher) don't have the slightest understanding of why things were set up as current. They also have zero understanding of the constitution.

I'm open to change if it creates improvement. I'm not open to removing an important part of our parliament.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

But yes, I like the Senate, as is.

g_bambino · July 9, 2009

Where did I say that?

Right here:

[O]ligarchy or "rule of the minority"... that is what senate is.

[V]etoing legislation and law is...

...[r]uling, and governing.

I just think the minority of Senate appointments should not get any say on what happens in this country.

Well then you're fine because, like the House of Commons, it takes a majority for a bill to pass in the Senate.

punked · July 9, 2009

Well then you're fine because, like the House of Commons, it takes a majority for a bill to pass in the Senate.

That you can still have majority vote in an Oligarchy as long as it is minority rule.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

Except that our system is set up so that there is an elected, appointed, and non partisan body that all keep each other in check.

g_bambino · July 9, 2009

That you can still have majority vote in an Oligarchy as long as it is minority rule.

There you go again saying the Senate rules. One more time: the Senate is only one part of the legislative process, which itself is but one part of governance (ruling, to use your term). There are plenty of other appointed bodies in the system, including the Prime Minister. Would you like to get rid of them too? It'll be the Queen and the House of Commons; just like medæval times!

jdobbin · July 9, 2009

That you can still have majority vote in an Oligarchy as long as it is minority rule.

If the NDP ever did become government and I think it would take a miracle, here is what would happen:

The NDP PM would say that Senate reform was not one of their election priorities. If they were foolish enough to attempt to abolish the Senate, they would run smack dab into at least four provinces or more that would oppose them. You need 10 provinces and the Federal government to approve abolition.

If the NDP attempted to not fill Senate seats, the Governor General would do it for them.

After all the constitutional talks (which no doubt would involve Quebec and First Nations wanting in on other areas), the NDP would find they were in the same position as Mulroney: Back to leaving things as is:

In all probability the NDP would give up or face election punishment.

If the NDP chose not to have Senate reform as government, I expect you would think it was a brilliant strategy and say it is not part of their election platform anyway.

punked · July 9, 2009

There you go again saying the Senate rules. One more time: the Senate is only one part of the legislative process, which itself is but one part of governance (ruling, to use your term). There are plenty of other appointed bodies in the system, including the Prime Minister. Would you like to get rid of them too? It'll be the Queen and the House of Commons; just like medæval times!

So the Russian Duma was not an Oligarchy? Wait a minute it was.

g_bambino · July 9, 2009

So the Russian Duma was not an Oligarchy? Wait a minute it was.

Oh, look! A nice, plumply stuffed straw-man!

punked · July 9, 2009

Oh, look! A nice, plumply stuffed straw-man!

I am pointing out that the rich and party players, insiders if you will should not get a free ride to have a say over how people live, if the people do not get a say in them getting the job.

g_bambino · July 9, 2009

I am pointing out that the rich and party players, insiders if you will should not get a free ride to have a say over how people live, if the people do not get a say in them getting the job.

Of course the people have a say. Senators are appointed by the Governor General on the advice of her Prime Mininster, who is responsible to the House of Commons, which is elected by the Canadian voting populace. Voila! Democracy.

Molly · July 9, 2009

.. and anyone wondering if it works could ask John turner whether elected governments are answerable for the appointments they make.

Dave_ON · July 9, 2009

.. and anyone wondering if it works could ask John turner whether elected governments are answerable for the appointments they make.

HAH I completely forgot about that Molly. Just like anyone who thinks a minority can govern as a majority should ask Joe Clark how well that works.

Dave_ON · July 9, 2009

So let me get this straight, you like having non elected officials representing you? 80% of Canada who says their needs to be Senate reform is wrong? K keep with that.

80% of Canadians want to abolish/reform the senate? Also 63% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Dave_ON

g_bambino · July 9, 2009

80% of Canadians want to abolish/reform the senate? Also 63% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Apparantly something like 70% also now want rid of the monarchy too. So, apparently in Canadians' ideal world, their government would consist of... well, the House of Commons and the Supreme Court. Wouldn't that be lovely!

ToadBrother · July 9, 2009

Apparantly something like 70% also now want rid of the monarchy too. So, apparently in Canadians' ideal world, their government would consist of... well, the House of Commons and the Supreme Court. Wouldn't that be lovely!

Could you cite that figure? I have never heard the percentages to be that high.

g_bambino · July 9, 2009

Could you cite that figure? I have never heard the percentages to be that high.

It was slightly less, actually:

Nationwide, 65 per cent thought Canada should cut its ties to the Monarchy when the next Royal is crowned.
CTV News

As I said in another thread, what can we expect from an ignorant populace being asked skewed questions on the spot?

madmax · July 9, 2009

80% of Canadians want to abolish/reform the senate? Also 63% of statistics are made up on the spot.

63%???

Actually

65% of statistics are made up on the spot.. erm 66% oh shit.. 67% bastard...68%.. opps, 69% ...

Regardless, getting rid of the Senate is the best thing that could happen. lol

Edited July 9, 2009 by madmax

Remiel · July 9, 2009

The funny thing about saying that 65 % of Canadians would like to cut ties with the Monarchy when the next Monarch is crowned is that it implies that the support for cutting ties right now is a lot lower. I suspect then that what people are really objecting to is not the institution at all, but the public image of the person who holds it. Charles is not exactly the most popular boy on the block, and I would bet that when he is eventually succeeded by William (barring any unforeseen circumstances), that people will get over their feelings for it. People are fickle like that.

That, and I would rather bet that it is one of those things where poll numbers do not reflect how an actual referendum would go.