Central Banks

[bush_cheney2004]

1. All central banks are privately owned.

False - example: The Central Bank of Angola is state owned.

2. There are three countries in the world without a central bank. Iran, Korea and Somalia.

There are others as well, depending on how you define a "country".

3. It is almost impossible to find out the ownership of the central banks.

False: It is child's play:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks

Edited June 28, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Jerry J. Fortin]

1. All central banks are privately owned.

2. There are three countries in the world without a central bank. Iran, Korea and Somalia.

3. It is almost impossible to find out the ownership of the central banks.

Jerry has done quite a bit of research on central banks.

I have brought them up on this forum once in awhile but I don't like to go into it too deeply most people don't know the purpose and function of a central bank. In Canada the central bank was established in 1933.

The owner of the central bank in Canada is said to be the Canadian government. All I have found out regarding it's corporate ownership is that there is only one share and it is held in trust by the Minister of Finance. I have my doubts that the owner is Canadian and is most likely British. The ownership of the Federal Reserve was published in 1913. Who owns it today are probably members of the same families as the original owners.

They are a problem and I would say they are the main factor in why there is currently a global economic meltdown. They are basically run by economists trained in the same economic theory who operate in co-operation with each other to manage the global economy as well as their own national economies.

The economic theory they operate from is based mainly on the works of Lord John Maynard Keynes (pronounced "canes").

Fractional reserve banking and government deficit financing are probably the main characteristics that have been beneficial to both government and the banks and the reason for their collaboration. They are a problem to society and the taxpayer because they allowed government to accrue debt and the banks to devalue the currency. But the main problem is the subject of money and the ignorance that has grown around it.

Odd but the socialist is fixated upon money and blames the capitalist for what is their own affliction - greed. All problems to the socialist are based upon money and the fact some people have too much. This is why, in my opinion, they will try to resolve environmental problems with taxation. All solutions to problems are merely how money is distributed in society. Government is the agency that will make the corrections and distribute it properly according to them.

Anyone who cares to see will notice that as government is increasingly doing this that injustices in the name of equality are determined to be justice.

Jerry - I know you have looked into Social Credit, what is your current idea of it?

I am still a large follower of the concept. Not the political corner, because it was never meant as a political system, and the Social Credit Parties that still exist are not subscribers of the economic reality of the concept at all. I keep reading and keep thinking that

it is too bad that Douglas was so well misunderstood that his detractors gained the kind of public support that was what Douglas really needed to pull this off. King beat up Aberhart and killed our chances of having this resolved, it was Bible Bill that dropped the ball because he should have known that provinces cannot play with monetary policy. There were ways around the problem, and there still is in my view, but he dropped the ball playing the game he did.

What we did gain out of the deal was ATB Financial, a provincial crown corporation that is a way out, if the government has the balls to use it. We don't have to mess around in the fed playground of monetary policy, all we have to do is use ATB and Alberta Provincial Bonds to get what we need. That is a reformed financial system.

In Alberta we have the opportunity to make mortgages for private dwellings provincially tax deductible. Those mortgages can be designed to be income scaled and interest free with term amortization configured to allow citizens with even modest incomes own their own homes. This is a key issue because it is the first step in effective wealth creation and since the government is able to provide the opportunity to achieve this through making available a greater disposable family income then it just seems to me the logical way to go. Along with the ownership of homes from the private citizens there would be a corresponding demand for all sorts of consumer goods to be used inside these homes. It would seem to me that it would provide a major incentive for a home grown manufacturing sector, a corner stone of a new and viable secondary industry infrastructure.

There are just too many benefits to ignore the opportunity in my view.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

False - example: The Central Bank of Angola is state owned.

There are others as well, depending on how you define a "country".

False: It is child's play:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks

You are a sheep BC. Just keep thinking that way, it makes sense to you, besides you are in the company of many others. You have the herd mentality. Perhaps you are more properly described as a capitalist lemming.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are a sheep BC. Just keep thinking that way, it makes sense to you, besides you are in the company of many others. You have the herd mentality. Perhaps you are more properly described as a capitalist lemming.

Then kiss my sheep ass....you clowns who think you have it all figured out are the biggest rubes of all. In the mean time, I am thriving in the system that is currently implemented...good or bad.

If that makes me a lemming (or sheep)...that's fine by me as I laugh all the way to the bank.

..and I don't have to whine about cell phone contracts!

Edited June 28, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Pliny]

False - example: The Central Bank of Angola is state owned.

Okay. Wonderful. Who is the State. The central bank of Cuba is state owned, isn't it? It has to be.

There are others as well, depending on how you define a "country".

A place where cows live.

False: It is child's play:

Ask some questions if something doesn't make sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks

What is money?

[Pliny]

Then kiss my sheep ass....you clowns who think you have it all figured out are the biggest rubes of all. In the mean time, I am thriving in the system that is currently implemented...good or bad.

If that makes me a lemming (or sheep)...that's fine by me as I laugh all the way to the bank.

..and I don't have to whine about cell phone contracts!

Glad you have it all figured out and are laughing all the way to the bank. I guess you did well when the global economy collapsed even though no one else saw it coming..... Well...maybe Peter Schiff.

[bush_cheney2004]

Okay. Wonderful. Who is the State. The central bank of Cuba is state owned, isn't it? It has to be.

It sure as hell isn't private. When you post something as simpledminded as "ALL", don't be surprised if somebody calls you on it.

A place where cows live.

Another dodge....Polynewbie was better at this game than you.

Ask some questions if something doesn't make sense.

....but always note as a fool the person who thinks he has all the answers.

What is money?

Money is a medium of exchange.

Edited June 28, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Glad you have it all figured out and are laughing all the way to the bank. I guess you did well when the global economy collapsed even though no one else saw it coming..... Well...maybe Peter Schiff.

I have done quite well thank you very much....portfolio has never been higher because of an exit / entry strategy.

The banks pay me interest, and I don't give a damn who owns them.

[Pliny]

I am still a large follower of the concept. Not the political corner, because it was never meant as a political system, and the Social Credit Parties that still exist are not subscribers of the economic reality of the concept at all. I keep reading and keep thinking that

it is too bad that Douglas was so well misunderstood that his detractors gained the kind of public support that was what Douglas really needed to pull this off. King beat up Aberhart and killed our chances of having this resolved, it was Bible Bill that dropped the ball because he should have known that provinces cannot play with monetary policy. There were ways around the problem, and there still is in my view, but he dropped the ball playing the game he did.

Two things about it stick in my craw. One, it considers that quantity of currency will have no effect on it's value.

and two...there is still too much government intervention in the economy. Had a long discussion with

What we did gain out of the deal was ATB Financial, a provincial crown corporation that is a way out, if the government has the balls to use it. We don't have to mess around in the fed playground of monetary policy, all we have to do is use ATB and Alberta Provincial Bonds to get what we need. That is a reformed financial system.

Never heard of a provincial crown corporation before. I'll have to research it.

In Alberta we have the opportunity to make mortgages for private dwellings provincially tax deductible. Those mortgages can be designed to be income scaled and interest free with term amortization configured to allow citizens with even modest incomes own their own homes. This is a key issue because it is the first step in effective wealth creation and since the government is able to provide the opportunity to achieve this through making available a greater disposable family income then it just seems to me the logical way to go. Along with the ownership of homes from the private citizens there would be a corresponding demand for all sorts of consumer goods to be used inside these homes. It would seem to me that it would provide a major incentive for a home grown manufacturing sector, a corner stone of a new and viable secondary industry infrastructure.

There are just too many benefits to ignore the opportunity in my view.

The ends sound good but why not just get rid of income tax. It is the worst form of tax especially the Marxist graduated tax system.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pliny

[Pliny]

It sure as hell isn't private. When you post something as simpledminded as "ALL", don't be surprised if somebody calls you on it.

Guess I'm all wrong.

...but always note as a fool the person who thinks he has all the answers.

Good one. Can't disagree with that.

Money is a medium of exchange.

Ok. What's the difference between "money" and "currency" then? Are they both the same?

[Pliny]

I have done quite well thank you very much....portfolio has never been higher because of an exit / entry strategy.

Good on you.

The banks pay me interest, and I don't give a damn who owns them.

Commercial banks pay you interest and I suppose since the government guarantees your account to 250 grand you needn't bother to worry about who owns them. What about the Federal Reserve? Do you personally know anyone with an account there?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Pliny

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Then kiss my sheep ass....you clowns who think you have it all figured out are the biggest rubes of all. In the mean time, I am thriving in the system that is currently implemented...good or bad.

If that makes me a lemming (or sheep)...that's fine by me as I laugh all the way to the bank.

..and I don't have to whine about cell phone contracts!

I am not Scottish, so the sheep bum thing has no appeal to me!

BC I am glad for you that you are making out well, unfortunately not everyone has or will. I think you realize that we are almost able to see the tip of the iceberg from here. The depression is still about 6-9 months away, and then you can expect deflation. I called you a lemming because like you, most folks are believers in the system. That is understandable because if you knew how to work it, it probably made you a ton of money. Unfortunately billions of 401K retirement plans evaporated in the last 9 months.

You see, my beef is with the system, not the people. The system uses people a lot more than people use the system. The system does it better, and it has been doing it for longer.

[bush_cheney2004]

Guess I'm all wrong.

In this specific case...yes. You got cocky....

Good one. Can't disagree with that.

Sure you could....you know it all.

Ok. What's the difference between "money" and "currency" then? Are they both the same?

Currency narrows the medium of exchange (money) to a specific form.

[bush_cheney2004]

Good on you.

Damn good on me.

Commercial banks pay you interest and I suppose since the government guarantees your account to 250 grand you needn't bother to worry about who owns them. What about the Federal Reserve? Do you personally know anyone with an account there?

Yes...the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago!

[bush_cheney2004]

I am not Scottish, so the sheep bum thing has no appeal to me!

Then why did you bring it up?

BC I am glad for you that you are making out well, unfortunately not everyone has or will. I think you realize that we are almost able to see the tip of the iceberg from here. The depression is still about 6-9 months away, and then you can expect deflation. I called you a lemming because like you, most folks are believers in the system. That is understandable because if you knew how to work it, it probably made you a ton of money. Unfortunately billions of 401K retirement plans evaporated in the last 9 months.

Tough noogies...I'm not one of them. Unlike you, I don't play victim very well. I am old and have seen a lot of shit go down before this, and the last thing I need is someone from the Canadian peanut gallery to tell me what is good or bad about the American central banking system.

You see, my beef is with the system, not the people. The system uses people a lot more than people use the system. The system does it better, and it has been doing it for longer.

So you got a better idea? A better idea for other nations than your own? Please, the world waits for your breakthrough ideas and plan to return "power to the people", who, by the way, have never enjoyed a higher standard of living during this run up to another Great Depression.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Two things about it stick in my craw. One, it considers that quantity of currency will have no effect on it's value.

and two...there is still too much government intervention in the economy. Had a long discussion with

You cut yourself off! At any rate, our fiat currency has no real value. It is only our trust in the medium that is relevant. The amount of dollars in circulation is indeed a problem, but not one that is not able to be solved. That task is the purported function of the centralized banking system. As you have likely realized, they are not very good at that job. Increasing the money supply causes inflation and decreasing it causes deflation. The term "business cycle" is most often used to describe the boom and bust system we have adopted. The centralized banking system sets its interest rates and attempts to control money supply based on demand, that hasn't worked very well either. The problem as I see it is not merely the amount of currency, or money supply but the interest charged under the fractional reserve system we use. It is that interest that has been the true culprit of government debt. A vast percentage of the worlds money supply is created in interest bearing debt incurred on a fiat currency that central banks create without almost any expenses incurred to them for the medium of exchange and with huge profits generated through highly leveraged fractionally increased profits.

Never heard of a provincial crown corporation before. I'll have to research it.

There are lots of them.

The ends sound good but why not just get rid of income tax. It is the worst form of tax especially the Marxist graduated tax system.

To get rid of income tax you need the federal government involved. Provincial tax is only about half of federal, so we can make a dent but that is all.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Then why did you bring it up?

Kissing your sheepish butt wasn't my idea dude.

Tough noogies...I'm not one of them. Unlike you, I don't play victim very well. I am old and have seen a lot of shit go down before this, and the last thing I need is someone from the Canadian peanut gallery to tell me what is good or bad about the American central banking system.

I have been beaten silly on several occasions, some were my own fault and some were not. Yet I am not a victim, I just take my lumps as I go, just like everyone else. I am not laying blame, I am learning facts and applying what I have learned.

So you got a better idea? A better idea for other nations than your own? Please, the world waits for your breakthrough ideas and plan to return "power to the people", who, by the way, have never enjoyed a higher standard of living during this run up to another Great Depression.

I don't have all the answers, I don't even have all the questions.....yet. I probably never will. The one thing I can say for sure is that society has made many mistakes for many reasons. Unfortunately the greater the influence or affluence of the individual the smaller the impact of those mistakes to that individual. As for some grand plan well let me say this. There are options, lots and lots of options. Unfortunately for the United States, there are a corresponding number of problems. The greatest nation on earth is having problems, and the world waits to see what happens. The truth is that the shear size of the American economy boggles the imagination and it permeates international events with is twitches and trembles. Solutions need to be found, and quickly. If America falls, it will make a very large noise.

What can be done is to use American influence and purchasing power to force changes as the nation desires. America still calls the ball, and will continue to do so until the Chinese and the Arabs start selling off all of their US T BILLS. Then the greenback my cease to be the global standard and the crunch will begin. That may be inevitable, but it may also be mitigated. Fortress North America may in fact be the only viable solution for the USA. The creation of a new nation would allow monetary reforms and the like to begin to ensure a stable financial system. Right now the US financial system is in deep trouble. A stable financial system could be used to deal with the production and consumption equations that will some become the talk of the town. Simple arithmetic shows all the fallacy of exponential growth and its impact on economic systems, that is where the problems were started and that is the only place that solutions can be found. Consumption drives production and that creates profits, but where do you draw the line? When you are consuming more than you are producing you begin the downward spiral you see in front of your face today. Profits are still being made, but they are ending up in far fewer places. That causes a loss of consumer confidence and that is another thing we are now seeing. We can all see what is happening, but we simply can't agree on what to do about it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Kissing your sheepish butt wasn't my idea dude.

But calling me a sheep was....

You are a sheep BC.

That's OK...but sheep have asses last time I checked.

I have been beaten silly on several occasions, some were my own fault and some were not. Yet I am not a victim, I just take my lumps as I go, just like everyone else. I am not laying blame, I am learning facts and applying what I have learned.

No, you are proposing that the current central banking system is somehow a fraud...which is always followed by fiat currency, gold standard, and a disdain for income taxes. That's all well and good, but please leave the USA out of your Albertan tax protest fantasy.

I don't have all the answers, I don't even have all the questions.....yet. I probably never will. The one thing I can say for sure is that society has made many mistakes for many reasons. Unfortunately the greater the influence or affluence of the individual the smaller the impact of those mistakes to that individual. As for some grand plan well let me say this. There are options, lots and lots of options.

And the USA has chosen from these possible options. Nobody else can.

Unfortunately for the United States, there are a corresponding number of problems. The greatest nation on earth is having problems, and the world waits to see what happens. The truth is that the shear size of the American economy boggles the imagination and it permeates international events with is twitches and trembles. Solutions need to be found, and quickly. If America falls, it will make a very large noise.

Then the "world" deserves any and all such calamity for letting the United States ascend to such a position of dominance. The American consumer may decide to stop buying crap from Canada and lot of other places on credit just to firm up the balance sheet. That's what runs this game.

What can be done is to use American influence and purchasing power to force changes as the nation desires. America still calls the ball, and will continue to do so until the Chinese and the Arabs start selling off all of their US T BILLS. Then the greenback my cease to be the global standard and the crunch will begin. That may be inevitable, but it may also be mitigated.

A very unoriginal idea that has been offered many times. Talk is cheap. The US dollar always takes a lickin' but keeps on tickin'.

Fortress North America may in fact be the only viable solution for the USA..... We can all see what is happening, but we simply can't agree on what to do about it.

This is your first mistake....there is no "We" in this scenario. By your own admission, the USA is still calling the ball. Canada (of all places), is quite irrelevant in this game at a macro level. Your economy is so dependent on the USA that the fear of a "depression" is greater there than in the US.

In the larger scheme, at least get the players and set pieces correct.

[Oleg Bach]

Coming to the defence of BC - I am not sheep - and he is not sheep..He is a realist of the highest degree - pragmatic and seemingly cold - He lives within an empire - and understands exactly what it is without apology - best to make friends with America - with one American to start with -better to reason and love than to sit and be the eternal critic..and a detractor that operates from a position of impedence..as most Canadian wanna be fire brands do - BC lives in the belly of the beast...at least he is making an effort to maintain civilzation - all we do is pick on the brave..because we suffer cowardice.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Canada has no voice at the table. I am not delusional, and no sane Canadian would believe that we do either. Yet we have concern for our southern friends. You folks are just to close to the game to see it any way other than you do. Understandable and unfortunate it may be, but that is the way it is.

Your central banking system is breaking you, slowly but surely. You can't see the forest for the trees from where you are but that perspective issue is your problem to deal with as well. You guys are trapped in your military industrial complex with a major fraction of total employment at stake. That complex costs billions of tax dollars every year, and it is very nearly the last bastion of your remaining manufacturing base. Making disposable products sold only to government at tax payers expense does little to improve the economic standing of your nation. Especially when you consider the debt being held outside of your nation because of it. Meanwhile your corporations are moving to nations with lower production expenses for most of your consumer products. This too has had detrimental impact on your economy. The one single shinning star of your once great economy was the realization of the "American" dream, citizen homeownership, and now that the bubble you folks have created and sold as "investments" has realized consequences that have now crippled your financial industry.

America needs economic reforms, fiscal reforms, financial reforms and monetary reforms just to "take a lickin' and keep on tickin' ", it all boils down to dollars and cents for you folks because that is your sword. Either America turns a corner and addresses the issue before it, or the empire will collapse. its just that simple.

You folks can do it by not renewing the charter for the fed and take control yourselves, at least it is a starting place. You can go from there to begin to fix the rest of your problems. On the other hand if you do not take control of your problems they will be your undoing. I will give America one single decade to handle this, no more. Perhaps less, but surely no more. In this decade on loan America will realize that the arithmetic works against them in terms of time taken to fix the economy. An economy can shrink as fast as it has grown, and that reality is something that nobody is talking about. The ramifications are unbelievable in their scope.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Coming to the defence of BC - I am not sheep - and he is not sheep..He is a realist of the highest degree - pragmatic and seemingly cold - He lives within an empire - and understands exactly what it is without apology - best to make friends with America - with one American to start with -better to reason and love than to sit and be the eternal critic..and a detractor that operates from a position of impedence..as most Canadian wanna be fire brands do - BC lives in the belly of the beast...at least he is making an effort to maintain civilzation - all we do is pick on the brave..because we suffer cowardice.

I am a long way from an American hater. I am an Albertan, we damned near revere the Americans. We know what they have done, what they can do and what they need. That is how our economy functions here, realizing these things is very important to us. The last thing Alberta wants is a harmed friend of our economy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada has no voice at the table. I am not delusional, and no sane Canadian would believe that we do either. Yet we have concern for our southern friends. You folks are just to close to the game to see it any way other than you do. Understandable and unfortunate it may be, but that is the way it is.

Doesn't matter.....your objective "wisdom" has yielded nothing better than to be held economically hostage by the very nation you propose to offer advice.

.... The one single shinning star of your once great economy was the realization of the "American" dream, citizen homeownership, and now that the bubble you folks have created and sold as "investments" has realized consequences that have now crippled your financial industry.

Wrong...home ownership is still quite popular. I own several myself.

America needs economic reforms, fiscal reforms, financial reforms and monetary reforms just to "take a lickin' and keep on tickin' ", it all boils down to dollars and cents for you folks because that is your sword. Either America turns a corner and addresses the issue before it, or the empire will collapse. its just that simple.

You already live in a fallen empire...not so bad..is it? Canada came closer to the precipice in the 1990's than America has to date.

You folks can do it by not renewing the charter for the fed and take control yourselves, at least it is a starting place. You can go from there to begin to fix the rest of your problems.

Nonsense....we didn't become the most powerful nation on the planet by listening to such advice. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.

On the other hand if you do not take control of your problems they will be your undoing. I will give America one single decade to handle this, no more. Perhaps less, but surely no more. In this decade on loan America will realize that the arithmetic works against them in terms of time taken to fix the economy. An economy can shrink as fast as it has grown, and that reality is something that nobody is talking about. The ramifications are unbelievable in their scope.

Now you have truly lost any semblance of credibility...why wait ten years? Back in the 1930's, America "fell" and recovered in less time....thanks to the fall of YOUR EMPIRE!

[bush_cheney2004]

I am a long way from an American hater. I am an Albertan, we damned near revere the Americans. We know what they have done, what they can do and what they need. That is how our economy functions here, realizing these things is very important to us. The last thing Alberta wants is a harmed friend of our economy.

I hope your Feds nationalize the oil patches....like another NEP. Then Americans can watch Alberta flop about with internecine provincial warfare (again). Maybe that will take your mind off of what the Americans are doing or not doing to your satisfaction.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Doesn't matter.....your objective "wisdom" has yielded nothing better than to be held economically hostage by the very nation you propose to offer advice.

I make no claim to wisdom, spin things round and round but you will trap yourself in your own assumptions.

Wrong...home ownership is still quite popular. I own several myself.

I guess then there is not and has not been any problem at all with your housing sector. The millions that have already or will soon lose their homes to bankers are of no import to you at all. You are wrong BC, I never said that the dream had died, I said there were problems.

You already live in a fallen empire...not so bad..is it? Canada came closer to the precipice in the 1990's than America has to date.

Canadian Empire? You mean the British Empire that a couple of centuries ago were responsible for both your nation and mine?

Nonsense....we didn't become the most powerful nation on the planet by listening to such advice. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.

You became the most powerful nation at sword point. It worked then, and it is working now. It is expensive in terms of dollars and the lives of your sons and daughters but the warrior culture you have created is well aware of that.

Now you have truly lost any semblance of credibility...why wait ten years? Back in the 1930's, America "fell" and recovered in less time....thanks to the fall of YOUR EMPIRE!

I don't suggest you wait at all. I suggest that you only have that long before the house of cards falls in upon itself and completely buries you in debt. Simple arithmetic can prove this coming result at current rates of consumption and loss.

[bush_cheney2004]

I make no claim to wisdom, spin things round and round but you will trap yourself in your own assumptions.

Then surely you won't mind if we file your ideas under "X".

I guess then there is not and has not been any problem at all with your housing sector. The millions that have already or will soon lose their homes to bankers are of no import to you at all. You are wrong BC, I never said that the dream had died, I said there were problems.

It's not a problem when people who should never have owned homes, or can no longer afford homes, lose same. That is how it has always worked. Have you ever seen a constable or sheriff evict an entire family? I have...about 45 years ago...not such a new idea.

Canadian Empire? You mean the British Empire that a couple of centuries ago were responsible for both your nation and mine?

That's the one....your Queen still runs it....like the Holy Trinity. Now we are the biggest pricks on the planet.

You became the most powerful nation at sword point. It worked then, and it is working now. It is expensive in terms of dollars and the lives of your sons and daughters but the warrior culture you have created is well aware of that.

Hard to argue with results....how do you like us now? Wanna buy another Globemaster III ?

I don't suggest you wait at all. I suggest that you only have that long before the house of cards falls in upon itself and completely buries you in debt. Simple arithmetic can prove this coming result at current rates of consumption and loss.

Then why haven't France or Japan met such a fate? They are carrying much larger debt to GDP ratios? Or do you only have an economic erection for the USA?