International bridge shut down

Machjo · June 2, 2009

That's a laughably cliche'd suggestion. It's not their land because we took if from them. Now it's ours.
And you know, a major holdup in the lands claim negations is always that multiple native bands claim the same land, because they were fighting over it for generations before the Europeans arrived. The land then, as it does now, went to whoever was strong enough to take and hold it.

And who was speaking of thuggery just a thread ago?

hey, I like your philosophy? What's your address? Maybe I could gather a few thugs to take your house in a few days. After all, if we win the firefight, the hous is ours, right? Might makes right after all.

Argus · June 2, 2009

There's a flaw in that logic.
I'm a fisherman and you build a factory upstream from me, polliting the river and killing my livelyhood. I become dependent on you, and then you insist I must live up to your terms.

Can you see the injustice in that?

Guess what? Nobody lives like the natives used to. Furthermore, when they did live on their own their lifespan was about thirty years. They lived in poverty, often hungry, ignorant, and superstitious, and were often at war with each other. Forget the romantic notion of the noble savage living in peace with the land. Little of that has much resemblance to truth.

By the way, are you sure they're on welfare?

About twelve billion dollars worth a year.

I've met aboriginal entrepreneurs myself. nice stereotyping there.

Cigarette smugglers or casino operators?

Argus · June 2, 2009

And who was speaking of thuggery just a thread ago?

I'm stating a fact of history and life.

hey, I like your philosophy? What's your address? Maybe I could gather a few thugs to take your house in a few days. After all, if we win the firefight, the hous is ours, right? Might makes right after all.

Fortunately, outside of native areas, law and order prevail.

Griz · June 2, 2009

That's a laughably cliche'd suggestion. It's not their land because we took if from them. Now it's ours.
And you know, a major holdup in the lands claim negations is always that multiple native bands claim the same land, because they were fighting over it for generations before the Europeans arrived. The land then, as it does now, went to whoever was strong enough to take and hold it.

It is still not legal you bozo. Hence the term"squatters." Reserve lands do not belong to aboriginal people so you were right in one thing by your statement "hold." It is held in trust by the squatters and therefore in the legal sense--the aboriginals have a very valid argument.

Smallc · June 2, 2009

No it is not "Canadian soil" It is sovereign Mohawk Territory and existed long before Canada was even thought of. The Mohawks have never treatied for land, surrendered their sovereignty, never been conquered or nor have they ever capitulated. You should brush up on your history before you continue spreading myths.

Sorry, It's Canadian soil...as demonstrated by the Canada US border that runs through it...and the endowment that the reserve gets from Ottawa. Either they are Sovereign and they don't get anything from Canada and the border goes around them...or....not....and in this case...not.

Smallc · June 2, 2009

I still don't see why they allow the US guards to be armed and not the Canadian ones. That's pretty dumb.

Griz · June 2, 2009

Guess what? Nobody lives like the natives used to. Furthermore, when they did live on their own their lifespan was about thirty years. They lived in poverty, often hungry, ignorant, and superstitious, and were often at war with each other. Forget the romantic notion of the noble savage living in peace with the land. Little of that has much resemblance to truth.
About twelve billion dollars worth a year.

Cigarette smugglers or casino operators?

Argus a teenaged punk can make better arguments than you. You right-wingers are all-alike-- "Little kid mentality" Little boy stuck in a man's body" :lol: When your boat-people ancestors got here, there were no showers on the boats and no rose-scented shampoo 100 years later you smell like a rose and have the nerve to whine! If you don't like it squatter--go back to where you came from :lol:

Argus · June 2, 2009

Argus a teenaged punk can make better arguments than you.

And yet, your arguments are curiously - absent.

Much like any semblance of intellect or sophistication in your posts.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

Argus a teenaged punk can make better arguments than you. You right-wingers are all-alike-- "Little kid mentality" Little boy stuck in a man's body" When your boat-people ancestors got here, there were no showers on the boats and no rose-scented shampoo 100 years later you smell like a rose and have the nerve to whine! If you don't like it squatter--go back to where you came from

Hey, watch it with the right-winger stuff. I often find myself agreeing with the right on many issues too. Not all right-wingers are the same.

Personally, I'm not sure if I'm right or left, but to start insulting either just drags the value of the arguments down the gutter.

Griz · June 2, 2009

I'm stating a fact of history and life.
Fortunately, outside of native areas, law and order prevail.

Law and order!! :lol: Our society is ripe with law-breaking, land squatting arses like you--the government is one great big, lying, deceitful, land squatter as you rape and pillage the resources--think of all the stuff you've done to the indians just so you can have money to whine about

Griz · June 2, 2009

Hey, watch it with the right-winger stuff. I often find myself agreeing with the right on many issues too. Not all right-wingers are the same.
Personally, I'm not sure if I'm right or left, but to start insulting either just drags the value of the arguments down the gutter.

Works the same both ways--not all aboriginal people are alike either, or should be subject to generalizations from bozos like Argus and Geoffrey

Smallc · June 2, 2009

All reserves are subject to the Indian Act...even those not vested in the Crown...that means that they fall within Canadian jurisdiction.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Smallc

charter.rights · June 2, 2009

I think we've given in to these thuggish sorts of threats far too often in the last twenty years. They help perpetuate a criminal culture on the border reserves, where a few criminal leaders get rich, and everyone else lives in poverty and fear. The only reason why we allow it is fear of being seen as abusing "the poor red man" but I think natives deserve the same protection as other Canadians, and that means holding up the same law and order for them as for anyone else. If there are criminals on the reserves they need to be dealt with, just like criminals anywhere else. That means putting in as many police as are required to bring law and order to the reserves, and arresting anyone who gets in their way.

Of course you mean crime in the sense of cigarette smuggling? The kind that RJ McDonalds and Reynold Tobacco got caught with at a estimated $100 billion in lost tax revenue, and when convicted got fined $10 billion for? The same fine that was negotiated down by the Harper government to $1 billion to be paid over the next 20 years? That crime?

It is non-natives doing most the crime. The majority of tobacco manufacturers and wholesalers at Akwesasne and other Mohawk territories are ma and pop operations making a moderate living off a traditional natural product that has been exploited by big corporations and government. You want to talk about crime do you? Maybe you should start pointing your finger in the right direction.

Akwesasne, as well as all other Six Nations territories are sovereign independent nations, not Crown controlled or governed. They have their own set of laws (and the Crown is negotiating with them at this point in time to create extradition agreements so their people will be tried according to their own laws). Maybe if our government started telling the truth you would have known that. They are also looking at compensation and land reunification as part of the continued negotiation for the lies and cheating they have perpetuated in the past. Things like Caledonia and Deseronto, really are small potatoes in the scheme of things.

While the government likes to talk tough in media events like this they will end up giving in. They will have to because the Border station is sitting on Mohawk territory and it does not belong to or under the control of the Canadian government. Yet the location of this border station is critical to stemming off illegal entry and traffic that would cripple Cornwall. They will capitulate once again to the Mohawks because they forget that the land that we all live on and use daily in Ontario really belongs to them. And "the Corridor" is under their control.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

All reserves are subject to the Indian Act...even those not ceded to the Crown...that means that they fall within Canadian jurisdiction.

That was through forceful acquisition.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

Works the same both ways--not all aboriginal people are alike either, or should be subject to generalizations from bozos like Argus and Geoffrey

Agreed.

Griz · June 2, 2009

All reserves are subject to the Indian Act...even those not ceded to the Crown...that means that they fall within Canadian jurisdiction.

They still are not legal property of the indians. The banks will not use anything on reserve as collateral like a house or a parcel of land

Smallc · June 2, 2009

They still are not legal property of the indians. The banks will not use anything on reserve as collateral like a house or a parcel of land

That's because they have no way to collect the collateral. It would be better for everyone if the reserve system was done away with.

Smallc · June 2, 2009

That was through forceful acquisition.

That doesn't matter...what matters is the law today.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Smallc

Smallc · June 2, 2009

So, the reseve seems to fall under the jurisdiction of the government of Canada...specifically the Department of Indian Affairs...but not the Queen.

Machjo · June 2, 2009

That doesn't matter...what matters is the law today.

So it wouldn't matter that I should gather up a large scale militia to overthrow the government, take it by force, ransack your town, confiscate your house, then make the laws. what would matter is the law afterwards?

And we call ourselves civilized.

charter.rights · June 2, 2009

Guess what? Nobody lives like the natives used to. Furthermore, when they did live on their own their lifespan was about thirty years. They lived in poverty, often hungry, ignorant, and superstitious, and were often at war with each other. Forget the romantic notion of the noble savage living in peace with the land. Little of that has much resemblance to truth.
About twelve billion dollars worth a year.

Cigarette smugglers or casino operators?

The average lifespan of an Iroquois citizen before contact was about 120 years old. They had much better hygene, less disease and far better physical fitness than our European ancestors did. In fact in Europe at the same time it was lucky for any of them to see 40 years old.

The government of Canada owes Six Nations more than $1 trillion dollars just for their unaccounted trust. Add to that the costs of lands and rents not paid for, it would break the bank of Canada just to pay off Six Nations. On top of all that all of BC is unceded and I would guess that $100 tillion is likely a nice round number the government owes BC natives. The $10 billion budget that INAC receives (and which 60% is spent in salaries and programs that never benefit First Nations, doesn't even put a dent into the interest we owe on those trusts, leases and unpaid occupations.

The government runs the casinos and profits from 2/3s of the cigarettes sold in Canada. According to the RCMP 90% of the tobacco seized along "the Corridor" (401) are from China and destined for Asian controlled variety stores and markets. The real criminals are getting away with it under our noses.

Smallc · June 2, 2009

So it wouldn't matter that I should gather up a large scale militia to overthrow the government, take it by force, ransack your town, confiscate your house, then make the laws. what would matter is the law afterwards?

This many years after...yes. We are doing our best to provide reasonable compensation for what was done. That said, I haven't taken anybody's land.

Smallc · June 2, 2009

The average lifespan of an Iroquois citizen before contact was about 120 years old.

I assume that you have proof.

Griz · June 2, 2009

So, the reseve seems to fall under the jurisdiction of the government of Canada...specifically the Department of Indian Affairs...but not the Queen.

Canada is a commonwealth country
The original constitution was BNA
Technically the Govenor General is Queen's represenatative
The Royal Proclamation of 1763 pre-dates the constitution
This set the basis for treaties therefore in the legal sense--Canada has unresolved issues with the land and Indians
No offence--this is what I mean by "squatters."
Isn't that what a squatter does? Steals the land and settles on it?

charter.rights · June 2, 2009

All reserves are subject to the Indian Act...even those not vested in the Crown...that means that they fall within Canadian jurisdiction.

Nope. They are not. The Indian Act only governs federally imposed Band governments on Mohawk Territories. Essentially they are simple money managers as agents of the federal government. The Iroquois Confederacy have their own laws that are not subject to the laws of Canada and the Crown and the courts recognize it.