The BIBLE and SCIENCE

[GostHacked]

Do you have proof you exist? No, Really? Really, maybe you are just a droid. who think he exists by asking for stupid information. Asking for someone to prove if the majority of people feel cold over feeling warm is an idiotic and a moronic request and it goes to show your shoe size intelligence. You can't quantify it, there is no way to know if atheists are more honest or dishonest. However, as I have stated the religious have books to say dishonesty is not acceptable. What books do atheists abide by and who is holding them to the fire?

Who holds the religious to the fire? God? Really? Why do we need to follow a book? Why can't we just live and enjoy life? Why do I have to constantly worry about my standing with this god creature?

Dishonesty is not acceptable to atheists either. This is the reason we stopped lying to ourselves about a god.

[charter.rights]

Do you have proof you exist? No, Really? Really, maybe you are just a droid. who think he exists by asking for stupid information. Asking for someone to prove if the majority of people feel cold over feeling warm is an idiotic and a moronic request and it goes to show your shoe size intelligence. You can't quantify it, there is no way to know if atheists are more honest or dishonest. However, as I have stated the religious have books to say dishonesty is not acceptable. What books do atheists abide by and who is holding them to the fire?

At a quantum level, no matter exists, nor can be differentiated from any other ~thing~. So the answer is at some level none of us exist, except perhaps our God-consciousness gives us an "idea" of our individual selves to suit a purpose.

Thinking is not that same thing as understanding.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Do you have proof you exist? No, Really? Really, maybe you are just a droid. who think he exists by asking for stupid information. Asking for someone to prove if the majority of people feel cold over feeling warm is an idiotic and a moronic request and it goes to show your shoe size intelligence. You can't quantify it, there is no way to know if atheists are more honest or dishonest. However, as I have stated the religious have books to say dishonesty is not acceptable. What books do atheists abide by and who is holding them to the fire?

Everything you just said can be proven. I exsist because I interact with the surrounding universe. You can then question whether the universe exsist but that is philosophy which I consider pretty much useless. I'm obviously not a droid as I have organs warm blood, every other trait that mammals have, and contain carbon making me an organic being. Hot and cold are just how we perceive the difference between whether energy is flowing out of or into an object, they feel the same once you get to the extremes because they overwhelm your nervous system. Want to try giving me something hard to explain to you?

I've said it before and I'll say it again If you get your morality or honestly from a book you are an idiot. Oh and society keeps us honest because unlike religous nuts we understand that we are ultimately responsible to those around us.

If those books are supposed to make people honest then why do so many of the people who read them lie?

I just might create a study for this with a few basic questions: How religous are you? How often do you go to church? How often do you read your Holy book? How often do you lie? And maybe a few other.

Edited January 23, 2010 by TrueMetis

[chuck schmidt]

Who holds the religious to the fire? God? Really? Why do we need to follow a book? Why can't we just live and enjoy life? Why do I have to constantly worry about my standing with this god creature?

You may. God won't prevent you.

[ToadBrother]

You are arguing non religious/atheists people are more trustworthy and reliable than those who claim they believe.

I have never made such an argument. But someone else made the argument that atheists are more likely to behave badly.

There is no way to prove whether you are being honest or dishonest with the people around you without putting a lie detector on you 24/7. Religion tackles that head on, so if the person is a lyer they are doing damage to their faith in whatever religion they are in and the efforts and beliefs are for nothing.

But religion hasn't ended unethical behavior, and as often as not, is used to suppport wicked acts. Go read up on the Southern Baptist Convention, for instance. Religion is simply a slave of society's mores. I'm attacking the notion of the "useful lie". As a social species, we have behave by rules and codes of conduct. Those codes are not static in time or space, either. But it's our essential nature. The notion of many Christian traditions that we're all inherently evil is pure rubbish.

From that angle, You could say atheists are more honest in that regard as they are not pretending to be hypocritical christians, jewish, muslims or whatever religion.

Nope. Please stop inventing positions for me. Deal with what I say, not with what you think I should say.

Edited January 23, 2010 by ToadBrother

[charter.rights]

Everything you just said can be proven. I exsist because I interact with the surrounding universe. You can then question whether the universe exsist but that is philosophy which I consider pretty much useless. I'm obviously not a droid as I have organs warm blood, every other trait that mammals have, and contain carbon making me an organic being. Hot and cold are just how we perceive the difference between whether energy is flowing out of or into an object, they feel the same once you get to the extremes because they overwhelm your nervous system. Want to try giving me something hard to explain to you?

I've said it before and I'll say it again If you get your morality or honestly from a book you are an idiot. Oh and society keeps us honest because unlike religous nuts we understand that we are ultimately responsible to those around us.

If those books are supposed to make people honest then why do so many of the people who read them lie?

I just might create a study for this with a few basic questions: How religous are you? How often do you go to church? How often do you read your Holy book? How often do you lie? And maybe a few other.

Right. You are saying "I think, therefore I am".....But that is not truth. That is philosophy and sits up there with the most mystical of religions.

Trying proving your existence using some scientific principle that can counter Quantum Theory.

[GostHacked]

Right. You are saying "I think, therefore I am".....But that is not truth. That is philosophy and sits up there with the most mystical of religions.

A good slap on the face will be more than enough proof to you that I exist. Simply for the fact you'd be taking me to court for assault!! Or wanting to return the favour. Also, interacting with me online here kind of is a proof that I exist.

Also, I look at all religions that prop a deity of some kind are mystical as well.

[internet]Jesus is Santa Clause for grown ups. [/internet]

Trying proving your existence using some scientific principle that can counter Quantum Theory.

Try proving god exists using science?

[ToadBrother]

Right. You are saying "I think, therefore I am".....But that is not truth. That is philosophy and sits up there with the most mystical of religions.

Trying proving your existence using some scientific principle that can counter Quantum Theory.

If you don't know the difference between philosophy and mysticism, it's hard to take anything you say seriously.

[charter.rights]

If you don't know the difference between philosophy and mysticism, it's hard to take anything you say seriously.

I know the difference,duh. The point is that they are both created through thinking and neither have a scientific base. If one purports that science is proof of all there is, then one must be able to explain "self" in terms that qualify, or refute Quantum theory.

The body is 99.9% nothingness and 0.1% ~something~ - electrical. How can something exist as substance when in reality it doesn't. Hint: perception is everything.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Right. You are saying "I think, therefore I am".....But that is not truth. That is philosophy and sits up there with the most mystical of religions.

Trying proving your existence using some scientific principle that can counter Quantum Theory.

No I'm saying I interact with the universe therefore I exsist. Atoms may be mostly empty space but there is still something there.

[whowhere]

Who holds the religious to the fire? God? Really? Why do we need to follow a book?

You have to ask yourself what is religion? One thing is certain it is unique to man as there is no evidence of religion being practice in the animal and insect domains. Questions and answers is what makes us human, it is natural to question life itself. Religion attempts to answer those questions.

Why can't we just live and enjoy life? Why do I have to constantly worry about my standing with this god creature?

What God creature? I don't know any? All I know is Christian and muslim fanatics or the Society A-holes who deserve a bat to the face.

Dishonesty is not acceptable to atheists either. This is the reason we stopped lying to ourselves about a god.

There is no God (as defined in the OT and NT) working in this world so you are right to be left alone to your life and not be harassed by Christians and muslims. Kind of hard when Canada is a haven for these world outcasts. Also hard when you have an apathetic parliament and bureacracy and a gomarrah society that deserves a boot to the face. A balance of Rules and Freedoms is the crux of a just society. I am not on here lying to you either. People are fundamentally lyers and are really not reliable or trustworthy. I am not arrogant enough to call myself atheist, I have to beleive there is more advance intelligence out there. Perhaps that intelligence is not what is described or portrayed in the OT or NT but that intelligence is smart enough to know what is true and what is not.

[whowhere]

Everything you just said can be proven. I exsist because I interact with the surrounding universe. You can then question whether the universe exsist but that is philosophy which I consider pretty much useless. I'm obviously not a droid as I have organs warm blood, every other trait that mammals have, and contain carbon making me an organic being. Hot and cold are just how we perceive the difference between whether energy is flowing out of or into an object, they feel the same once you get to the extremes because they overwhelm your nervous system. Want to try giving me something hard to explain to you?

Animals have all this going on as well, except they "lack" the capacity to document their lives and they "lack" the capacity to create comfortable environments. Like animals you "lack" the capacity to trascend death once your body fails you. Religion is an attempt to address this area.

I've said it before and I'll say it again If you get your morality or honestly from a book you are an idiot. Oh and society keeps us honest because unlike religous nuts we understand that we are ultimately responsible to those around us.

Explain that to the homeless and those who have can't afford food.

If those books are supposed to make people honest then why do so many of the people who read them lie?

Probably Christians who bought into jesus died on the cross for my sins, so now I am free to lie and cheat, do whatever and go to heaven, excellent.

I just might create a study for this with a few basic questions: How religous are you?

Define Religious? I accept a God, whether its Jupiter, Yahweh, or whatever other yet to be determined entity who claims to be the cradle of humanity.

How often do you go to church?

I reject Christians and Christianity so I would not be welcomed in their church.

How often do you read your Holy book? How often do you lie? And maybe a few other.

I have read the book many times and I have looked at other religious books as well. I also look at history as well. I am not a know it all so I will seek out books to expand my insight into the mechanics of life.

[whowhere]

At a quantum level, no matter exists, nor can be differentiated from any other ~thing~. So the answer is at some level none of us exist, except perhaps our God-consciousness gives us an "idea" of our individual selves to suit a purpose.

Thinking is not that same thing as understanding.

The Romper Room of words. That's the problem with western society; you are taught to read and write and then left field theories come into the picture. Proving what you are saying, is it science, or is it a hypothesis on the same plane as the God hypothesis.

One things is fact, the OT describes a God in detail. His personality and actions is not abstract but concrete. However, there is no evidence of this God beyond those words written in that book. In any case, science can be looked at as tool to Understand. Understanding is the precursor to thinking. In that thinking you know if that God is working in this world or not. As this God is described in the OT, NO. That has not stopped man and Religion from using this as a way to take advantage and twist the stories around for their purposes.

[charter.rights]

No I'm saying I interact with the universe therefore I exsist. Atoms may be mostly empty space but there is still something there.

There is nothing more to you than pure energy - electrons, protons and neutrons. All of your thinking matter is energy. And so any interaction you may perceive is likely an idea - one that is not separate or private from the rest of the other energy beings - that is formed from the energy of other ideas. Your interaction with the universe is not real in the material sense, and so it is nothing more than a delusion. Individual thoughts are merely delusions in which we pretend we are smarter, or faster, or more cunning than every other individual we perceive out there. Quantum theory reality suggests that you are not interacting with the universe but the universe cannot be separated from "self" and therefore we are all part of the same electron soup.

Therefore the concept of your self is delusional and ethereal. You don't exist apart from everything else.

So on point.....if one considers the interconnectedness (the thread between us) of everything as "The Christ" (which is the message behind the New Testament), and the Christ is part of and cannot be separated from the universe - which for the time being we call God - then God exists and has a scientific basis in Quantum theory. If energy cannot be created or destroyed then the God concept could be simply an explanation in less scientific terms of a scientific phenomena that we have only recently begun to study (and name) with a more critical eye.

If one wants an example of how this interconnected is illustrated in the New Testament, read Matthew 7 in its entirety.

[kimmy]

There is nothing more to you than pure energy - electrons, protons and neutrons. All of your thinking matter is energy. And so any interaction you may perceive is likely an idea - one that is not separate or private from the rest of the other energy beings - that is formed from the energy of other ideas. Your interaction with the universe is not real in the material sense, and so it is nothing more than a delusion. Individual thoughts are merely delusions in which we pretend we are smarter, or faster, or more cunning than every other individual we perceive out there. Quantum theory reality suggests that you are not interacting with the universe but the universe cannot be separated from "self" and therefore we are all part of the same electron soup.

Therefore the concept of your self is delusional and ethereal. You don't exist apart from everything else.

This is really just a bunch of mumbo-jumbo dressed up to look scientific.

Protons, electrons, and neutrons are not energy, they are matter. Matter and energy may be converted from one to the other, but are not the same thing.

The human nervous system does work does work using electricity. Your brain is basically billions of tiny batteries charging and discharging in various patterns. My batteries are separate from your batteries. They don't influence each other. The human brain is an incredibly lousy transmitter, and an equally poor receiver, of radio signals. Those claiming scientific justification for telepathy based on the idea that moving electrical charges create electromagnetic waves are mistaken. If human brains are connected to each other, it's not through any mechanism known to science, so we're really back to notions of the paranormal and magic powers.

-k

[ToadBrother]

I know the difference,duh. The point is that they are both created through thinking and neither have a scientific base. If one purports that science is proof of all there is, then one must be able to explain "self" in terms that qualify, or refute Quantum theory.

Nothing shows someone's ignorance more than when they use the word "quantum".

The body is 99.9% nothingness and 0.1% ~something~ - electrical. How can something exist as substance when in reality it doesn't. Hint: perception is everything.

Go look up "strong nuclear force".

[Guest TrueMetis]

There is nothing more to you than pure energy - electrons, protons and neutrons. All of your thinking matter is energy. And so any interaction you may perceive is likely an idea - one that is not separate or private from the rest of the other energy beings - that is formed from the energy of other ideas. Your interaction with the universe is not real in the material sense, and so it is nothing more than a delusion. Individual thoughts are merely delusions in which we pretend we are smarter, or faster, or more cunning than every other individual we perceive out there. Quantum theory reality suggests that you are not interacting with the universe but the universe cannot be separated from "self" and therefore we are all part of the same electron soup.

You have no idea what quantum mechanics are, they are a set of principles used to describe the behavior of the matter and energy at the atomic scale.

No one knows how we are able to think but one thing we are damn sure of is that it wouldn't be possible without are neurons which are matter.

And finnaly what the hell is that last bit of course we are seperate. Are you suggesting some kind of universal telepathy? Tha's just insane. Don't you think we would have picked up on that by now? Again you don't know what you are talking about.

So on point.....if one considers the interconnectedness (the thread between us) of everything as "The Christ" (which is the message behind the New Testament), and the Christ is part of and cannot be separated from the universe - which for the time being we call God - then God exists and has a scientific basis in Quantum theory. If energy cannot be created or destroyed then the God concept could be simply an explanation in less scientific terms of a scientific phenomena that we have only recently begun to study (and name) with a more critical eye.

There is nothing connecting us you have no understanding of what you speak of.

If one wants an example of how this interconnected is illustrated in the New Testament, read Matthew 7 in its entirety.

Lol yes I'm going to take an example from a book that is wrong every other line seriously.

[Shwa]

If human brains are connected to each other, it's not through any mechanism known to science, so we're really back to notions of the paranormal and magic powers.

Interesting thought, although "science" is working towards several models of interconnectedness including the semiosphere noosphere and collective consciousness.

[kimmy]

Interesting thought, although "science" is working towards several models of interconnectedness including the semiosphere noosphere and collective consciousness.

As I read those explanations, they are social concepts and have nothing to do with the "electron soup" and "quantum theory reality" which charter.writes claims disproves the notion of individual thought.

-k

[Shwa]

As I read those explanations, they are social concepts and have nothing to do with the "electron soup" and "quantum theory reality" which charter.writes claims disproves the notion of individual thought.

Quantum theory reality suggests that you are not interacting with the universe but the universe cannot be separated from "self" and therefore we are all part of the same electron soup.

Leaving aside the former for a minute, are you saying that on the quantum reality 'level,' the 'stuff' you are made of is any different than the 'stuff' everything else in the Universe is made up of?

Edited January 25, 2010 by Shwa

[GostHacked]

Leaving aside the former for a minute, are you saying that on the quantum reality 'level,' the 'stuff' you are made of is any different than the 'stuff' everything else in the Universe is made up of?

The thing is, this is all theoretical physics. There is no testing available to confirm any of this at this time. And when someone finds something, then it has to be peer tested to be validated.

We are all made of stardust regardless.

Leaving that aside for a moment, you seem to really be grasping at things. And are you really saying that we are different from the stuff that makes up the rest of the universe?

[ToadBrother]

Interesting thought, although "science" is working towards several models of interconnectedness including the semiosphere noosphere and collective consciousness.

I don't think you'll find many scientists agreeing with semiotics.

[Shwa]

I don't think you'll find many scientists agreeing with semiotics.

Can you name a few or perhaps provides further information to support your view?

[whowhere]

The thing is, this is all theoretical physics. There is no testing available to confirm any of this at this time. And when someone finds something, then it has to be peer tested to be validated.

We are all made of stardust regardless.

Leaving that aside for a moment, you seem to really be grasping at things. And are you really saying that we are different from the stuff that makes up the rest of the universe?

flesh and blood (alive) is different than soil and rock (dead). Yes there are those who say everything is energy and perhaps that is true depending on the meaning of energy. To prosper and flourish in thought you require likeminded stimulus. Humanity has been questioning life for thousands of years and this pursuit will continue. It is obvious some on here know everything so they will reduce everyone around them to their level of limited thinking/understanding. One irrefutable by all is we have choices. Depending on what we do determines an outcome. In life what is the right choice? Yes we could rule out the God of the OT and NT as a fairytale concocted by over exuberant believers. However, where are the Rival Gods stories?, what are they? What is it they promise?

Trying to understand to the nuts and bolts of how a car (human body) is made/functions is smart. All cars need drivers. Who is driving your car? Are you the Car or are you a driver? Welcome to religion.

[Guest TrueMetis]

flesh and blood (alive) is different than soil and rock (dead).

Not really in the end they are all made up of the same basic elements.