The BIBLE and SCIENCE

[charter.rights]

Take a look at the data. Are any elements missing, should there be additional categories or should elements be in different categories? Also, if you scan the list do you see any patterns or inferences?

I don't see any more to add but I think depending who is telling the story there might be some additions / deletions. From what I understand, stories told by native people often came with a moral, so it is possible that some of the attributes may be red herrings.

But at face value, the inference might be interdependence, symbiosis, benefits of working together, etc all which which seem to also have a moral equivalent. Then there are the things I mentioned that come from modern experiences - nutrition, amino acids, protein etc. And we have horticultural knowledge (which the Iroquois seem to have been masters of) - shading, conservation, fertilization etc.

But it seems to me that there were some other elements to the story that I was told in the form of animals and insects being discouraged (raccoons, deer, mice) and those being encouraged by the symbiotic arrangement (pollinators, predators, toads, etc).

It certainly point to symbiosis as being prominent in the story....

[Shwa]

There seems to be a cyclical pattern to the elements that I am not sure if they are the result of the categorization, which I quickly devised at a glance. So that as you progress through each list there is a progression and a 'return to' the beginning of the list. Certainly the story suggests this 'return to' aspect as the Three Sisters are reunited and return to the common garden. However, what I know of ancient Iroquoian culture, their dependence on maize agrictulture, their use of moon phases and cycles for planting and ceremonies, etc. would suggest that the cyclical nature of the story is by design.

There are also elements that oppose each other - dry/damp, cool/wither, thriving/dying, etc. This might also suggest opposite positions on a cycle. One interesting example is the locations category. I was sure if I should include the term 'Ancient Iroquoia' since it is only implied in the story. But the contrasting terms we have are then Ancient Iroquoia/Intermediate Zone & Common Garden/ Separate Garden. However, if we listed the locations in the story (including Ancient Iroquoia) it would look like this:

Ancient Iroquoia - Common Garden - Intermediate Zone - Separate Garden - Intermediate Zone - Common Garden. ---> Ancient Iroquoia ... etc.

From the studies of ancient Iroquoia the evidence indicates (even into historical times) that the maize fields were common property or a commons. This seems to be the most prevalent economic setup of at least Northern Iroquois.

What do you make of this?

[Oleg Bach]

It is possible. Yes. But the one thing lacking is another text or set of texts to cross reference.

Just anthropology? We can't use something like reason?

Oh, I've been waiting for an idea.

Lazarus was not dead.

This kind of smells.

Lazarus was not dead.

Now I can say the story is false in the view of the reporter and to anyone in general. And you are only giving us one little bit of data to work with? I think this needs to be expanded on to at least two bits of coroborating data. Which I challenge you to find.

I won't need my disdain to show that you are wrong and what you are trying to do is not science.

God is great, kill the infidels.... God and Science are cut from the same material. Why do we have to seperate intelligent life in the universe as if there has to be smart and stupid - good and evil etc...Why not let everyone be intelligent - let everyone partake in the God factor - let us all be gods until science proves us to be wrong - at that point the increase of believers will be vast - Time will tell...nothing.. This tiff has being going on since time began ...One person would say - the water is hot because of the flame - the other would say it was the heated hand of God that heated the water - both are right.

[GostHacked]

.One person would say - the water is hot because of the flame - the other would say it was the heated hand of God that heated the water - both are right.

One of them would be wrong though.

[charter.rights]

There seems to be a cyclical pattern to the elements that I am not sure if they are the result of the categorization, which I quickly devised at a glance. So that as you progress through each list there is a progression and a 'return to' the beginning of the list. Certainly the story suggests this 'return to' aspect as the Three Sisters are reunited and return to the common garden. However, what I know of ancient Iroquoian culture, their dependence on maize agrictulture, their use of moon phases and cycles for planting and ceremonies, etc. would suggest that the cyclical nature of the story is by design.

There are also elements that oppose each other - dry/damp, cool/wither, thriving/dying, etc. This might also suggest opposite positions on a cycle. One interesting example is the locations category. I was sure if I should include the term 'Ancient Iroquoia' since it is only implied in the story. But the contrasting terms we have are then Ancient Iroquoia/Intermediate Zone & Common Garden/ Separate Garden. However, if we listed the locations in the story (including Ancient Iroquoia) it would look like this:

Ancient Iroquoia - Common Garden - Intermediate Zone - Separate Garden - Intermediate Zone - Common Garden. ---> Ancient Iroquoia ... etc.

From the studies of ancient Iroquoia the evidence indicates (even into historical times) that the maize fields were common property or a commons. This seems to be the most prevalent economic setup of at least Northern Iroquois.

What do you make of this?

I'm not sure. I might be missing something....

[jbg]

Do you know the story of why the native chap won't eat Sushi?

Because he was a pillock?

[Who's Doing What?]

I can totally understand why someone would want to believe an all-powerful being took the slightest interest in their day to day lives, but I just don't buy it.

Faith is faith. The belief in something without proof.

Don't get me wrong I have read the bible a couple of times, but in no way am a scholar, but I do believe it sets down an excellent example of how to live one's life. My issue is that I just can't get past the idea that some all-powerful being is keeping track of how many old ladies I help across the street.

"We are all stardust."

Lovely lyric.

This is where science and mysticism meet.

Science says we all came about through the elemental evolution that is powered by the stars. This involves a historical relationship to everything in the universe since we are, according to science, created from very simplist of elements which began at one point in time, while mystically it confirms a connection to everything we know of in existance.

Do we have a soul? Religion says yes.

Newton's law says that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

If the energy that gives us life remains intact after death, then perhaps we do have a soul.

Is there a heaven or hell? Well continuing with the idea that our "soul" continues on after our bodies die, all that would remain is pure energy, and if it were conscious, it would be pure thought. Meaning as pure conscious energy you would go where ever you thought of, or thought you belonged.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Who's Doing What?

[Shwa]

I'm not sure. I might be missing something....

It might to help visualize:

-----------------Ancient Iroquoia-----------------

-Separate Garden---------------Common Garden-

-----------------Intermediate Zone-----------------

So if you move clockwise (and through the story)can you see a cycle with the opposing elements arranged at - for lack of a better term - the cardinal points?

If you take the other lists, can you see how those elements have a sort of cyclical progression? (I don't know how to do html code so the visualizing is up to you) This is more evident with the 'actions' list, but it appears to me that those elements could be arranged in a circular fashion. The 'characters' and 'relationship' elements seem to be a little more abstract to make such an arrangment, but it is possible I think. Do you see this?

The reason I think this is interesting is because practically all indigenous people in North America use the circle as a primary symbol and the concept of 'cycle' as a primary concept. The story itself has a cyclical element to it where we go from stability to instability to stability again with the plant foods.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that there is more to the 'data' than simple elements or lists of elements where the arrangement of elements in this story could convey information as well. In this case it seems that the arrangement of elements in the story clearly imply the concept of the 'cycle.'

Thus far we have a simple fairy tale of Corn, Beans and Squash. The Thanksgiving foods.

Then we see a level of opposition in the elements of the story.

Then we see an arrangement of the elements that suggests a cycle.

Do you follow so far?

[Oleg Bach]

One of them would be wrong though.

Not really. That is like saying that you can not have good without evil..and you would not know what pleasure is without suffering pain..That whole concept is a crock of poop. Good or God does not need evil to exist. We for some strange and stupid reason actually exept evil as some sort of conquering force that can not be stopped and that it is neccesary in human existance. That's the greatest lie perpetrated against man kind ever. It might be time to re-evaluate the concept of good and evil and simply get rid of evil - seems the more you fight it, the more energy you give it....hense the more it grows..This is the greatest human weakness based in uncontrolled emotion - that it is not God or the so-called devil that generates evil - It is us, through sheer cowardice and stupidity - and most of all - FEAR ----IF we stopped being afraid - evil would cease to exist...and that is what maturity and good wise understanding is - that evil should be understood and extinguished though non-involvement. Ignore the stupidity and go about your buisness building a heaven on earth...earth was not meant to be a hell - It is heaven.

There are "violent men that try to take heaven by force" f**k em!

[GostHacked]

Do you follow so far?

So much for Lazarus.

[charter.rights]

It might to help visualize:

-----------------Ancient Iroquoia-----------------

-Separate Garden---------------Common Garden-

-----------------Intermediate Zone-----------------

So if you move clockwise (and through the story)can you see a cycle with the opposing elements arranged at - for lack of a better term - the cardinal points?

If you take the other lists, can you see how those elements have a sort of cyclical progression? (I don't know how to do html code so the visualizing is up to you) This is more evident with the 'actions' list, but it appears to me that those elements could be arranged in a circular fashion. The 'characters' and 'relationship' elements seem to be a little more abstract to make such an arrangment, but it is possible I think. Do you see this?

The reason I think this is interesting is because practically all indigenous people in North America use the circle as a primary symbol and the concept of 'cycle' as a primary concept. The story itself has a cyclical element to it where we go from stability to instability to stability again with the plant foods.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that there is more to the 'data' than simple elements or lists of elements where the arrangement of elements in this story could convey information as well. In this case it seems that the arrangement of elements in the story clearly imply the concept of the 'cycle.'

Thus far we have a simple fairy tale of Corn, Beans and Squash. The Thanksgiving foods.

Then we see a level of opposition in the elements of the story.

Then we see an arrangement of the elements that suggests a cycle.

Do you follow so far?

I have some apprehension but go on....

[Shwa]

Well, before we go on, what are your apprehensions?

Do you disagree that information can be obtained from the structure of the story as well as it's content?

[GostHacked]

Well, before we go on, what are your apprehensions?

Do you disagree that information can be obtained from the structure of the story as well as it's content?

Hay, what about Lazarus??

[charter.rights]

Well, before we go on, what are your apprehensions?

Do you disagree that information can be obtained from the structure of the story as well as it's content?

I don't disagree.... Go on...

[Oleg Bach]

Hay, what about Lazarus??

Lazarus is dead. The whole concept of raising the dead has do more with science and utra-quantum mechanics than mystical smoke and mirrors - I believe it has to do with asending and desending in time. Besides no one wants to stand beside a standing corpse..they frinking smell real bad - It's about altering time and space.

[Oleg Bach]

72 virgins? Nope...not for me --- Love the cartoon where the Islamic gets to heaven and is disappointed as Mohamid leads him to an old hag and says..."No no no - I meant a 72 year old virgin..

[Shwa]

Onward...

OK, so we know that we can gather data not only from the elements, but from their structure or placement as well. In addition to the resolution of opposing elements we might be able to see other pertinent ancient Iroquoian cultural information such as gender politics (sisters versus ungendered farmer), power or family politics (the alliance of the sisters), farming methods (intercropping, site selection) and family oriented morals (good sisters, dependencies). I am sure a closer look at a more authentic version of this story might include more data.

We can accept that an oral culture's 'books' are its myths and stories and that transmission of information for the moral, ethical and learning purposes would be encoded in these myths and stories. In this case, their appears to be more than meets the eye. U of Toledo prof Barbara Mann makes an interesting case in her analysis of 'A Lynx in Time' where she shows that Iroquoian people devised a construct whereby historical epochs are recorded within the allegorical construct of a single myth. This would make for very efficient means of communication. The Three Sisters story seems to be constructed in this way - an allegorical construct for many levels of cultural information.

So far we have looked at the data contained in the story itself. Now I would like to look at the story from the perspective of the biology of the plants and anthropology through the recent work of Dr. Hart from the New York State Museum. Once I have done this, then I would like to offer a hypothesis about this and similar stories and offer possible avenues to test the hypothesis.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Shwa

[charter.rights]

You have the ...ummmm....floor...thread...whatever....

[GostHacked]

Alright, I can take a hint. You don't wanna talk about Lazarus. It's been a week now. Ah well.

[Shwa]

You have the ...ummmm....floor...thread...whatever....

Ok, so a little more information to gather that is not expressed in the story - at least from a scientific point of view.

Maize is a very interesting crop that was domesticated some 8500 years ago in Mesoamerica. It requires human intervention to propogate. It lacks amino acids lysine and tryptophan and vitamin B3 (niacin). On it's own it is not a very nutritious food.

The common bean was domesticated some 6000 years ago or more in Mesoamerica and south from wild bean plants. Beans contain a measure of lysine, tryptophan & niacin.

Squash has been cultivated for over 8000 years in Mesoamerica, but likely was also eaten in other parts of the world. Squash contains B vitamins, tryptophan and is a good source of carbohydrates.

Eaten together, these foods can provide a balanced and nutritious diet.

What we are interested in however, is the presence of the Three Sisters in Iroquoia. The current archaeological record as supplied by the recent work of Dr. John Hart from the New York State Museum the provides a bit of a twist to the story of the Three Sisters.

The archaeological record point to squash as being the earliest of the Three Sisters to make an appearance in Iroquoia, likely cultivated some 3 thousand years ago. Recent dating - using accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) dating techniques) of cooking residues from ancient pot sherds shows that maize appeared about the 2 thousand years ago. However, the earliest confirmed dating of the common bean in Iroquoia dates to only about 700 years ago.

Now accepting that the Three Sisters refers to Maize, Squash and the Common Bean, the earliest this story could have come together in the present form is about 700 years ago, a few centuries before Europeans arrived in the 'New World.' Within going into detail, some interesting things were going on in the vicinity of Iroquoia 700 or so years ago. They might be related? Let's ask:

So the question is, what is the origin of the Three Sisters as it relates to the story, the concept of intercropping and the use of those particular three crops?

I propose that the 'Three Sisters' story is part of a compendium of stories that form an agrarian cultural imperative that was passed along as the knowledge of agriculture spread from one culture to another.

There are a few ways to test this hypothesis:

1. Linguistics or archaeo-linguistics that could trace the formation of keywords (i.e the words for maize, beans & squash) from ancient times to present within and without an Iroquoian language context.

2. Analysing the story of the Three Sisters within the context of other Iroquoian specific stories and myths and determining whether similar story structures exist.

3. Analysing similar agrarian story compendiums within other early Native American cultures esp those in the southern US.

4. Compiling a database on the dating of maize, beans and squash remains and organizing this data by region.

5. Analysing and comparing the DNA obtained from the remains in possible to trace minute changes in cultivars.

6. Other.

So, do you follow so far?

[Shwa]

So, do you follow so far?

If you do follow, then I have a question for you: up to and including the hypothesis and potential testing avenues, does my brief internet-forum scientific query follow the rules of the scientific method?

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.

2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis that is consistent with what has been observed.

3. Use the hypothesis, a working assumption, to make predictions.

4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations, then modify and improve the hypothesis in light of these results.

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation

If I haven't followed the scientific method, let me know which area is lacking. If I have, however, there are implications.

One implication is that any cultural artefact can be the subject for scientific enquiry to one degree or another and this includes cultural texts, stories, myths, etc., including the Bible which is nothing more than a compendium of stories and myths structured to transmit cultural imperatives to future generations.

Practically every culture in the world has their own version of the 'word of god' - their own categorical imperatives that are transmitted from one generation to the next through storytelling, dances, symbolic representations, etc. But the nature of what is being enquired into does not exempt those things from scientific reasoning. This is not to say that science can/must be ham-fisted about its questions and enquiries towards senstive subjects, which usually defeats the research, I am only saying that if the questions are framed properly, the method can be used. And it can be used fairly successfully, even if only to make a start.

Do you agree?

[Sir Bandelot]

Spirituality is not logical, Mr. Spock

[charter.rights]

Spirituality is not logical, Mr. Spock

BUT it may very well be the precursor to all science.

[GostHacked]

BUT it may very well be the precursor to all science.

However it is not science. I'd like to know if this story of the Three Sisters is in the Bible at all.

[Oleg Bach]

Spirituality is not logical, Mr. Spock

Depends on the brain power you are born with - IF you are intelligent enough you will see the logic and science in the super extended natural realm...If you are a bit on the dull and spiteful arrogant side - and lacking that little bit of extra intellectual capacity...You will NOT see the logic held in spirt - MR. Spock is a fictional character by the way.