Supporting your troops.

[Radsickle]

A few months ago, Stephen Harper decided that "we" could not win in Afghanistan and announced a date by which Canada would cut-and-run. Is that what is meant by supporting the troops? Or is that not supporting the troops? Or is it a response to the polls? Or a cheap and cynical way to buy votes in Quebec?

Dude, normally I would hack at Harper but he didn't say `cut-and-run'. Don't be manipulative. He merely prepared the older Canadians for the letdown approaching when the romantic ending of this `war' doesn't happen.

[normanchateau]

Dude, normally I would hack at Harper but he didn't say `cut-and-run'. Don't be manipulative. He merely prepared the older Canadians for the letdown approaching when the romantic ending of this `war' doesn't happen.

My mistake entirely. In fact he said the opposite.

Stephen Harper: “There will be some who want to cut and run, but cutting and running is not my way and it’s not the Canadian way."

[g_bambino]

I'm not sure what was proven there in your favour....

To be honest, I'm not at all sure what he's on about anymore. Is he disputing my facts, or is he actually affirming them? With all the double posts, replies to himself, and throwing back as though they were his the very points you and I put forward, it's really hard to tell.

[g_bambino]

There is something wrong with the very notion of a `Queen' of my Canada.

Aah.. "My" Canada, is it? Now I see, then; you're jealous that there's another queen on the scene. Is it because she wears prettier tiaras than yours?

[bjre]

Let's take a look at how laws are coming from ... full of cheating:

No, you should answer the question, can a Canadian citizen start the processes to change a law or have a law created....Yes or no....

It is possible, and it is possible in any other country.

In china, there were 64 items of law amended last year:

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en...l%3Den%26sa%3DG

Wow 30 years, Are you saying Tiananmen square did not happen, that all those pictures and vid taken are fake....what about these facts...

In 1989 Tiananmen incident did happened. Protestors occupied Tiananmen square for more than a month. They burnt more than 1000 vehicles. They beat and killed many soldiers.

Compare in Canada Police arrested 15 people at Tamil protest April 29. The protests did not burnt vehicles, The protests did not kill others.

Compare in USA, troops went to Kent University and kill 4 students and wound many others who protest, the student just stay in their campus, the students did not burn vehicles, did not kill others.

So what is the difference between a democrat government and Chinese government.

There is some difference. Countless fax goes to offices in China from US before and during the 1989 protest, it was backed by CIA.

And one of the leader said, the result she want is the Chinese army shot people, that is what they want, so that they can do other things follow that.

So, who is murder of the people died in Tiananman square? It is CIA! Clear now?

the tibiten budists, is that all fake....

Same as 1989, CIA/FED is the director of the incidents related with Tibet.

One of the infamous organization is the Reporters Without Borders, they take money from USA government and French government directly.

Freedom of speach as long as your not talking about the current government...

Freedom of movement....has to be governmental aprroved...

China executes approx 10,000 persons every year....

China

China[

China has a lot of problems. But not as you mentioned in the links you provided, those are from writers take money from CIA / FED

Hell goggle is full of how well china treats it's people....Are you saying they are all wrong....or perhaps you've swallowed that proganda pill the chinese government has been shoveling....but i have one more question, if Canada is soooo bad, why did you leave China, and come here.

That is a classic question, whenever any immigrant talk about some dark side in Canada, they are likely asked the question.

My knowledge of Canada was wrong when I came here.

I did not know the truth before I came here and live here for a long time.

I supported democracy and human right concept very much when I was in China.

Now, I understand it is just another Utopia.

There is no perfect place in the world.

Democracy is not a guarantee of freedom.

The US democracy was started from their first president Washington. He actually wanted freedom. He wanted freedom from the England government. So that he can have freedom to pursue his interest and the group of people's interest, the people who are like himself.

Did he fight for the freedom for all American people? No. he own 123 slaved, did his slaves has freedom, No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery

You can think of those who pointed other countries human right situation, what kind of the freedom they want, is it for Iraq people or Afghanistan people, or even all US people, or Canada people, no, they want only the freedom to control other countries so that they can earn more money for themselves. To do that, they ask you guys to pay tax.

When you try to talk about the human right of other countries, think of the native people in your own country first.

[g_bambino]

In 1989 Tiananmen incident did happened. Protestors occupied Tiananmen square for more than a month. They burnt more than 1000 vehicles. They beat and killed many soldiers.

Firstly, Tianamen Square is not a major thoroughfare; the protesters' occupation of it did not block any traffic or hinder Beijing's daily business. Secondly, the busses and cars were moved onto streets and set alight after the military had been dispatched to break apart the mob and make arrests. Thirdly, there's a difference in danger between being arrested in Canada and arrested in China; in the former, you're less likely to simply disappear without explanation after being detained. So, your comparison fails to convince anyone that the way the law is executed by military and police officers here is somehow more, or even equally totalitarian as elsewhere.

[bjre]

Firstly, Tianamen Square is not a major thoroughfare; the protesters' occupation of it did not block any traffic or hinder Beijing's daily business. Secondly, the busses and cars were moved onto streets and set alight after the military had been dispatched to break apart the mob and make arrests. Thirdly, there's a difference in danger between being arrested in Canada and arrested in China; in the former, you're less likely to simply disappear without explanation after being detained. So, your comparison fails to convince anyone that the way the law is executed by military and police officers here is somehow more, or even equally totalitarian as elsewhere.

Lie.

[g_bambino]

Lie.

Ooh... What a well constructed argument!

[bjre]

Firstly, Tianamen Square is not a major thoroughfare; the protesters' occupation of it did not block any traffic or hinder Beijing's daily business.

Tiananmen street is in the Center of Beijing. Chang'an street pass through Tiananmen Square, which is the most wide street in Beijing.

Secondly, the busses and cars were moved onto streets and set alight after the military had been dispatched to break apart the mob and make arrests.

In Toronto, barriers were not set there before Timil protest went there.

When Chinese student ask apply for protest to support China Olympics 2008, they were not allowed, and they had to change to a party in Dondus street.

Thirdly, there's a difference in danger between being arrested in Canada and arrested in China; in the former, you're less likely to simply disappear without explanation after being detained. So, your comparison fails to convince anyone that the way the law is executed by military and police officers here is somehow more, or even equally totalitarian as elsewhere.

Is there any difference in danger of the 4 student's death in Kent University, and the death of the Bonus Army in Washington?

[g_bambino]

Tiananmen street is in the Center of Beijing. Chang'an street pass through Tiananmen Square, which is the most wide street in Beijing.

Any look at Google Earth will prove you wrong; the square is surrounded by streets, not bisected by any.

In Toronto, barriers were not set there before Timil protest went there. When Chinese student ask apply for protest to support China Olympics 2008, they were not allowed, and they had to change to a party in Dondus street.

So?

Is there any difference in danger of the 4 student's death in Kent University, and the death of the Bonus Army in Washington?

Did I mention the US at any point?

Look, I'm not going to disagree with you on the point that democracy is not necessarily a guarantor of freedom. However, trying to compare apples to oranges is not going to make your case that Canadians are more oppressed by the Queen's soldiers than are the Chinese by their authorities and others by the leaders of their similarly despotic countries, or worse.

_[copyedited]

Edited May 1, 2009 by g_bambino

[bjre]

Any look at Google Earth will prove you wrong; the square is surrounded by streets, not bisected by any.

That has proved that you were not in Tiananmen Square in 1989, That is why you don't understand how traffic had been blocked by the protests.

So?

Any government will not let the burning vehicles and killing people in the streets happening without action .

Did I mention the US at any point?

Look, I'm not going to disagree with you on the point that democracy is not necessarily a guarantor of freedom. However, trying to compare apples to oranges is not going to make your case that Canadians are more oppressed by the Queen's soldiers than are the Chinese by their authorities and others by the leaders of their similarly despotic countries, or worse.

_[copyedited]

Canada and US are both democracy, It has no difference in nature. It has no point to blame China in area of human right. In this area, US and Canada are not better than China.

[g_bambino]

That has proved that you were not in Tiananmen Square in 1989, That is why you don't understand how traffic had been blocked by the protests.

No, I wasn't there in '89, but cameras fortunately were, and there's no evidence of any street running through Tiananmen Square. Chang'an Avenue forms the northern end of the space, it doesn't run through it, and along each flank of the plaza is a dense collection of buildings through which no major route could have recently run. Sorry.

Any government will not let the burning vehicles and killing people in the streets happening without action.

Perhaps. But you still conveniently ignore the chronological fact that the vehicles were burnt and people killed after the government took action.

Canada and US are both democracy, It has no difference in nature. It has no point to blame China in area of human right. In this area, US and Canada are not better than China.

Democracy may have a broad definition agreed upon so that systems of political thought can be classified as being either democratic or not. However, within that scope lies a good many variations on a theme. Canada and the US can both be considered democracies, but they certainly are not the same; a basic look at the structure of governance will easily illustrate that. So, trying to bring into this discussion the topic of the US is a pointless distraction that only exasperates the arrival at a conclusion.

_{[ed. sp.]}

Edited May 1, 2009 by g_bambino

[bjre]

No, I wasn't there in '89, but cameras fortunately were, and there's no evidence of any street running through Tiananmen Square. Chang'an Avenue forms the northern end of the space, it doesn't run through it, and along each flank of the plaza is a dense collection of buildings through which no major route could have recently run. Sorry.

You are living in a small Canadian city that you don't have a basic concept of the population in China that one city has half of the population of Canada.

That several hundred of Tamil protest can bring so large attention, if they were in Beijing, even like a drop in the sea.

People from nearby cities and far away cities gathers in Beijing. They were not only stay in square, they were fill the street even till Xidan, lots of bus (transit) regular lines canceled at that time. some people even walk 2 hours to go to work and just stay in the office for 2 hours then walk 2 hours back to home. I believe you never see such a crowd living in a small city in Canada.

Perhaps. But you still conveniently ignore the chronological fact that the vehicles were burnt and people killed after the government took action.

Even when the Soviet Union Leader Gorbachev came to China, the government unable to arrange the meeting in the Great Hall of the People as scheduled. If this happened in Canada, you think the government will not take action to ask them to move?

Democracy may have a broad definition agreed upon so that systems of political thought can be classified as being either democratic or not. However, within that scope lies a good many variations on a theme. Canada and the US can both be considered democracies, but they certainly are not the same; a basic look at the structure of governance will easily illustrate that. So, trying to bring into this discussion the topic of the US is a pointless distraction that only exasperates the arrival at a conclusion.

_{[ed. sp.]}

I hope Canada is better than US.

I hope Canada can abolish some laws that hurt people like grant CAS to kidnap kids from parents and blackmail tax payers for "protect" money.

Edited May 1, 2009 by bjre

[Smallc]

I hope Canada can abolish some laws that hurt people like grant CAS to kidnap kids from parents and blackmail tax payers for money.

Thank God those laws exist.

[bjre]

Thank God those laws exist.

Now you thank God happily, after some years, when Canada become worse and worse, you will no even know one of the important reasons is this kind of laws.

[g_bambino]

They were not only stay in square, they were fill the street even till Xidan, lots of bus (transit) regular lines canceled at that time. some people even walk 2 hours to go to work and just stay in the office for 2 hours then walk 2 hours back to home. If this happened in Canada, you think the government will not take action to ask them to move?

Okay. Though I maintain that there is not, nor was there ever, a street running through Tiananmen Square, I will acquiesce on the point that the crowd did eventually grow to an astronomical number and started to cause issues in the daily lives of people living and working in the area. Still, that eventuality does not in any way prove that Toronto police were being brutal or oppressive in setting up barricades to keep Tamil protesters from spilling over onto the other half of University Avenue, or even for arresting those who tried to expand the crowd beyond those limits. In fact, it's my feeling that the authorities in this city have been too lenient with this mob, and should have cleared them entirely off the road the day they set up camp there. That a compromise of sorts has been made shows that the attitude on the part of the authorities here is not the same as those in China, who, instead of allowing a group to stand somewhat where they want (even if that is smack in the middle of a major road) and merely arrest those who try to topple that precarious balance, would instead send tanks and other armoured vehicles in to randomly open fire on unarmed individuals, and then lie about the body count the next day in the media they themselves control and literally erase from history any mention of what took place.

_{[ed. to rm.]}

Edited May 1, 2009 by g_bambino

[bjre]

Okay. Though I maintain that there is not, nor was there ever, a street running through Tiananmen Square, I will acquiesce on the point that the crowd did eventually grow to an astronomical number and started to cause issues in the daily lives of people living and working in the area. Still, that eventuality does not in any way prove that Toronto police were being brutal or oppressive in setting up barricades to keep Tamil protesters from spilling over onto the other half of University Avenue, or even for arresting those who tried to expand the crowd beyond those limits. In fact, it's my feeling that the authorities in this city have been too lenient with this mob, and should have cleared them entirely off the road the day they set up camp there. That a compromise of sorts has been made shows that the attitude on the part of the authorities here is not the same as those in China, who, instead of allowing a group to stand somewhat where they want (even if that is smack in the middle of a major road) and merely arrest those who try to topple that precarious balance, would instead send tanks and other armoured vehicles in to randomly open fire on unarmed individuals, and then lie about the body count the next day in the media they themselves control and literally erase from history any mention of what took place.

_{[ed. to rm.]}

That is the difference of a developed country and a developing country.

The government is not so experienced on that and have not so many police officers in China (I mean compare the ratio of the cops number / protest number).

The government's management skills on dealing protest is not as good as Toronto. Even now, this is still true.

That's it.

Edited May 1, 2009 by bjre

[g_bambino]

The government's management skills on dealing protest is not as good as Toronto. Even now, this is still true.

That's it.

And by better management skills you mean a less draconian exercise of authority, right?

[normanchateau]

That is the difference of a developed country and a developing country.

The government is not so experienced on that and have not so many police officers in China (I mean compare the ratio of the cops number / protest number).

China should learn from Canada on how best deal with protesters. We use something called pepper spray:

http://www.greenleft.org.au/1998/341/19917

The risk in using pepper spray in Canada is that opposition parties will accuse the Prime Minister of human rights violations. Both the NDP and Reform Party of Canada accused the Prime Minister of human rights violations in 1998. This will not be a problem in China. Try pepper spray.

[bjre]

Secondly, the busses and cars were moved onto streets and set alight after the military had been dispatched to break apart the mob and make arrests.

Actually, as I remembered, many tires of buses had been made flatted in the street long before military dispatched.

The protesters wanted to make a de facto strike of all industry and business at that time.

I remember some of my schoolmates talk about when they try to cut the bus tire, the bus driver said there are wires inside the tire, it is not easy to cut it, the driver helped them with his tools, and after the students went away, the driver asked some help and drive away.

Edited May 3, 2009 by bjre

[Oleg Bach]

Violent protest is useless - destruction of property...is useless and causes hardship and more pollution to create more stuff that is destroyed - you can not run a protest by instilling hate and expect a positive out come.

[normanchateau]

Actually, as I remembered, many tires of buses had been made flatted in the street long before military dispatched.

The protesters wanted to make a de facto strike of all industry and business at that time.

Good reason to use pepper spray:

http://www.greenleft.org.au/1998/341/19917