The Liberal leader says a Liberal government is going to raise taxes&#

[Hydraboss]

From http://alberta.ca/home/NewsFrame.cfm?Relea...1E121F9F6D.html

The Engine of Economic Growth

In recent years, Alberta has been the strongest-firing cylinder in Canada’s economic engine and, along with BC and Saskatchewan, we will continue to play a strong role in the future - if we make sensible, practical decisions that embrace Western Canada’s potential.

Last year, it’s estimated that Albertans contributed 36.3 billion dollars to the federal treasury, and received back about 18.5 billion dollars in federal services.

That’s a net contribution by Albertans of almost 18 billion dollars...or nearly five thousand dollars per capita.

The next biggest contributing province, Ontario, stood around 1600 dollars per capita and BC was around 1000 per capita in 2006, according to the most recent StatsCan information.

To put those numbers in perspective, Alberta’s net contribution of 18 billion dollars is more than the $12.9 billion the federal government spent on equalization payments last year.

Smallc

Alberta probably sent $18B to Ottawa, yes, but that goes into general operating revenue just as the tax money sent from British Columbia and Manitoba does. You do not send $18B to equalization and if someone told you that, they're lying.

The $9.3 billion I posted was incorrect. I'm not sure where I got that one (I was obviously looking at too many numbers at once). Still, in 2008 Alberta didn't send $18 billion dollars to Ottawa, it sent $36.3 billion dollars to Ottawa.

Those of you in the west that are arrogant enough to think you are the only ones that work and pay taxes....are rather uninformed....to say the least.

You really like to pick and choose without context, don't you. What I said was:

It will further piss off those of us in the West that work and pay taxes, but that won't matter because we will heading back to the same-old same-old Liberal antics of "screw the west, we'll take the rest".

I made no statement that said people outside of Alberta don't work. I said that the Liberals will intentionally piss of those Albertans that do.

Incidentally, in another thread you made the statement that Ontario will continue to be a "have" province and put funds into the equalization rip-off scheme. You are incorrect again. Perhaps before you spout off about someone else having a

fundamental misunderstanding about Canada

you should ensure that you are as well informed as you would have others believe.

I believe the number that Ontario will receive this year is $347 million.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Hydraboss

[Alta4ever]

So perhaps you could provide a list of departments, along with the expected savings. Right?

sure you find me the line items and I'll cross them out for you.

I have very little time to search for an itemized list, but Hydra boss pointed out a few earlier in the thread with how much they are costing. But angain it just show that the liberals dn't even want to try to shif funds or ax programs instead they would like to raise taxes.

[ToadBrother]

sure you find me the line items and I'll cross them out for you.

I have very little time to search for an itemized list, but Hydra boss pointed out a few earlier in the thread with how much they are costing. But angain it just show that the liberals dn't even want to try to shif funds or ax programs instead they would like to raise taxes.

So, in short, we have unevidenced claim that there are a bunch of civil servants who we can get rid of because of duplication with provincial services, and this somehow constitutes, in your mind, a meaningful policy.

[Hydraboss]

Here, go through the coles notes version and let me know where you want to start chopping. I suggest Aboriginals and Foreign Aid (2010-2011 this one will be $5 billion alone).

http://www.budget.gc.ca/2008/pamphlet-depl...pliant1-eng.asp

Nice thing is, if you get rid a departments all together, you get to lose the dead weight civil servants as well.

[Smallc]

I believe the number that Ontario will receive this year is $347 million.

Ok, so that makes sense for Alberta, and I didn't know those numbers, but you still don't understand how equalization works. Ontario will still be a net contributor to the federal government this year. The number will be in the $20B range (last I heard, it may be lower given the current state of things). Ontario will receive equalization, yes, but all that means is that the internal fiscal capacity of the Ontario provincial government is not equal to or greater than the 2008 average plus inflation of the equalization formula. It does not mean that Ontario will get more money from Ottawa than they send to Ottawa (they won't, not even close), all that is happening this year is that the provincial government is receiving a small amount of money from Ottawa in the form of Equalization to bring it up to the 2008 average plus inflation. Ontario, until about 2007, had the fastest growing economy and population in the country. They are down right now, but they'll come back.

Similarly, Alberta's $18B net contribution does not all go to equalization, it just goes to general revenue. All it means, is that Alberta has paid $18B more than they will receive back in federal transfers or in federal services. Yes, that is a lot of money, but Ontario does the same thing....and so do BC and Saskatchewan.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Smallc

[tango]

Federal Ministry..........1995-96..............1996-97................2006-07.............2007-08

Human Resources...$33,104,939,843....$23,798,499,919....$34,628,376,627..$36,458,230,055

Finance..................$9,391,561,049......$23,936,878,861....$39,078,083,850..$47,960,402,660

Can anybody guess why the budget for 'Finance' went from $9b to $48b, between 1995-6 and 2007-8?

Should Finance be our single largest expense by $11b?

I think we could cut there.

Edited April 16, 2009 by tango

[Hydraboss]

Federal Ministry..........1995-96..............1996-97................2006-07.............2007-08

Human Resources...$33,104,939,843....$23,798,499,919....$34,628,376,627..$36,458,230,055

Finance..................$9,391,561,049......$23,936,878,861....$39,078,083,850..$47,960,402,660

Can anybody guess why the budget for 'Finance' went from $9b to $48b, between 1995-6 and 2007-8

Uhmm....is that maybe the department the Liberals were using to purchase big-ass fountains for Shawinigan?

[waldo]

Here, go through the coles notes version and let me know where you want to start chopping. I suggest Aboriginals and Foreign Aid (2010-2011 this one will be $5 billion alone).

http://www.budget.gc.ca/2008/pamphlet-depl...pliant1-eng.asp

Nice thing is, if you get rid a departments all together, you get to lose the dead weight civil servants as well.

you obviously don't understand the mechanics of equalization... and you certainly don't accept the rationale behind equalization.

given your earlier pronouncements against the foundations of this country... given your misunderstandings and misrepresentations on what federalism is... given your blatant separatist leanings... why do you even bother to play this budget spending reduction game?

here's a thought - in your narrow skewed view... once you cut/slash/burn everything & anything that actually helps define Canada/Canadians (as we know it/them today)... what's left in your view to actually represent Canada/Canadians?

[Hydraboss]

Ok, so that makes sense for Alberta, and I didn't know those numbers, but you still don't understand how equalization works. Ontario will still be a net contributor to the federal government this year. The number will be in the $20B range (last I heard, it may be lower given the current state of things). Ontario will receive equalization, yes, but all that means is that the internal fiscal capacity of the Ontario provincial government is not equal to or greater than the 2008 average plus inflation of the equalization formula. It does not mean that Ontario will get more money from Ottawa than they send to Ottawa (they won't, not even close), all that is happening this year is that the provincial government is receiving a small amount of money from Ottawa in the form of Equalization to bring it up to the 2008 average plus inflation. Ontario, until about 2007, had the fastest growing economy and population in the country. They are down right now, but they'll come back.

Similarly, Alberta's $18B net contribution does not all go to equalization, it just goes to general revenue. All it means, is that Alberta has paid $18B more than they will receive back in federal transfers or in federal services. Yes, that is a lot of money, but Ontario does the same thing....and so do BC and Saskatchewan.

Although this may seem remarkable to you, I actually have a fairly solid, layman understanding of equalization payments and the process in general.

Where the money goes is not really the point. In the end, look at the amount of personal transfer:

Alberta

nearly five thousand dollars per capita

Ontario

around 1600 dollars per capita

BC

BC was around 1000 per capita

I have a family of four. Basic math says I'm sending $20,000 per year to Ottawa than my family is getting back in benefit. Do you want to write me a check for $20,000??????? Anyone???????

[waldo]

.

Edited April 16, 2009 by waldo

[Smallc]

You don't like Canada...I get it. That's really too bad, because you're part of it and I would be quite safe in my assumption that it's going to remain that way. I'm going to try this one more time. Equalization is part of the foundation of this country. Canadians in Prince Edward Island are not worth any less than Canadians in Ontario and so the Government of Canada ensures that those people in PEI receive similar services at a similar level of taxation to those people in Alberta. It is part of what Canada is. We are all equal. As I said, a country is more than dollars and cents...more than anything, it's people.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Smallc

[Hydraboss]

you obviously don't understand the mechanics of equalization... and you certainly don't accept the rationale behind equalization.

given your earlier pronouncements against the foundations of this country... given your misunderstandings and misrepresentations on what federalism is... given your blatant separatist leanings... why do you even bother to play this budget spending reduction game?

here's a thought - in your narrow skewed view... once you cut/slash/burn everything & anything that actually helps define Canada/Canadians (as we know it/them today)... what's left in your view to actually represent Canada/Canadians?

I abhor the "rationale" behind equalization. I understand the mechanics, I just don't like them. It's theft.

Why the reduction game? Why not? Currently it's my money they're giving to you, so I should have your permission to write what I wish about it on the net.

what's left in your view to actually represent Canada/Canadians?

At the moment? A tax return. With any luck (although doubtful), Alberta would be able to have trade agreements with Canada. You guys can worry about how you want to re-jig the equalization scheme when the money is gone. Canada is a dead as a country, so why try to save it? Wouldn't it make more sense for the Liberals to have everything east of Manitoba (or Sask if need be) and the Cons to take everything west? It's not like it would change much except for your federal budget (no money) and us then having a justice system instead of what's currently there.

[Smallc]

Canada is a dead as a country, so why try to save it?

That is blatantly false. Canada is far from dead...and it doesn't need saving.

[Smallc]

I abhor the "rationale" behind equalization. I understand the mechanics, I just don't like them. It's theft.

No, it's not. You don't respect the Constitution or this country and that's the real issue.

[Smallc]

OTTAWA–A new poll suggests most Canadians are maple syrupy sweet on their country, with more than half of those surveyed saying they couldn't be more proud of their home and native land.

The Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey asking Canadians to rank their pride in Canada on a scale of one to 10 found 57 per cent gave it the highest mark.

Another 25 per cent gave it an eight or a nine, while just 3 per cent ranked their pride lower than a five.

The average score for pride in Canada was 8.85. Women, with an average pride level of 8.94, were slightly more proud of their country than men, who averaged 8.75.

Albertans were the proudest of Canada, with an average ranking of 9.43. Quebecers, with an average of 7.82, were the least proud, though only a small fraction rated their pride lower than a five out of 10.

A majority in other provinces and territories rated national pride a 10.

Bruce Anderson, president of Harris-Decima, said the poll suggests that while Canadians may not be as overtly patriotic as their American neighbours, there's still a strong sense of pride across far-flung corners of the country.

Proudly Canadian across the land, poll finds

Blows your theory all to hell doesn't it?

Edited April 17, 2009 by Smallc

[Hydraboss]

You don't like Canada...I get it. That's really too bad, because you're part of it and I would be quite safe in my assumption that it's going to remain that way. I'm going to try this one more time. Equalization is part of the foundation of this country. Canadians in Prince Edward Island are not worth any less than Canadians in Ontario and so the Government of Canada ensures that those people in PEI receive similar services at a similar level of taxation to those people in Alberta. It is part of what Canada is. We are all equal. As I said, a country is more than dollars and cents...more than anything, it's people.

You and I can disagree on this all year long. I have no delusions that Alberta will remain part of Canada, but a man can dream, can't he?

This country was never founded on "equalization". Never. If people in PEI need and want (rightfully so) the same BASIC services as the rest of Canada and don't feel like paying 98% of their salaries in taxes to support it........move. They have the right to mobility. I hire them all the time. Where this becomes a problem is when the taxpaying public has to pay for these people because they WANT to stay where they are by choice.

The basic fundamental belief of people like me is we will help out, but we will not continually support your lazy ass. I wouldn't do it for my kids, so why should I do it for someone else's?

A county with actual pride (like the US or Italy) is about people. Canada's only symbol of patriotism is "Roll Up the Rim".

[Smallc]

The basic fundamental belief of people like me is we will help out, but we will not continually support your lazy ass.

There you go again. Just because the rest of the country does not have salaries matching Alberta DOES NOT mean that they are lazy. Yes, Alberta has a higher employment rate than any other province, but that doesn't mean that people in other places don't want to work.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Smallc

[Hydraboss]

So because my wife and I make more than people in other parts of the country, that gives the feds the right to take more of my money than yours? Call it what it is....a higher federal tax rate for Albertans.

If people are unemployed in other parts of the country and refuse to move, it's just tickity-boo for them to steal my hard-earned money to keep them in "the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed"? Were we married at some point that I don't remember?

[Smallc]

So because my wife and I make more than people in other parts of the country, that gives the feds the right to take more of my money than yours? Call it what it is....a higher federal tax rate for Albertans.

Alberta has the same federal tax rate as all other places. That's part of the point that you don't seem to understand. Oh, and my family pays a large amount of income tax...without many complaints at all. I like paying taxes...because they give me this great country.

If people are unemployed in other parts of the country and refuse to move, it's just tickity-boo for them to steal my hard-earned money to keep them in "the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed"? Were we married at some point that I don't remember?

They aren't stealing anything. That money is guaranteed to all people in the constitution. Just because you don't respect one of the institutions of this country (OK, more than one) doesn't mean that the country is stealing from you.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Smallc

[tango]

So because my wife and I make more than people in other parts of the country, that gives the feds the right to take more of my money than yours? Call it what it is....a higher federal tax rate for Albertans.

If people are unemployed in other parts of the country and refuse to move, it's just tickity-boo for them to steal my hard-earned money to keep them in "the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed"? Were we married at some point that I don't remember?

You don't get it do you?

The resources of Canada collectively belong to all of us.

That's what equalization is for - to distribute the wealth from Canada's resources.

You think you are somebody special because you make lots of money from Canada's resources and whine like a jet engine that you should be able to keep it all for yourself?

That just makes you an insufferably arrogant. Isn't that spe-cial!

Edited April 17, 2009 by tango

[Hydraboss]

Alberta has the same federal tax rate as all other places

Only I get to add $20,000 to my tax bill (in real money) and you get to deduct a certain amount (due to federal benefits in).

I like paying taxes...because they give me this great country.

Well then, why don't you pay my additional share? Should we contact the feds and make the arrangements? What do you say?

The resources of Canada collectively belong to all of us.

That's what equalization is for - to distribute the wealth from Canada's resources.

So now your paycheck is a resource that collectively belongs to all of us? Okay comrade. One other note: According to your beloved federal documents, the resources of Alberta belong to Alberta. Not all of "us".

whine like a jet engine that you should be able to keep it all for yourself?

Yes, as a matter of fact. I earned it, not you. Nor anyone else in this wannabe "country". If you want communism, move to a communist country. I have no doubt you'd "whine like a jet engine" if you were in my place. Of course you'll deny it because you're not, and prattle on about "the resources of Canada".

[tango]

Only I get to add $20,000 to my tax bill (in real money) and you get to deduct a certain amount (due to federal benefits in).

Well then, why don't you pay my additional share? Should we contact the feds and make the arrangements? What do you say?

So now your paycheck is a resource that collectively belongs to all of us? Okay comrade. One other note: According to your beloved federal documents, the resources of Alberta belong to Alberta. Not all of "us".

Yes, as a matter of fact. I earned it, not you. Nor anyone else in this wannabe "country". If you want communism, move to a communist country. I have no doubt you'd "whine like a jet engine" if you were in my place. Of course you'll deny it because you're not, and prattle on about "the resources of Canada".

I am in your position. I've made plenty of money. And I pay my taxes without complaining because I am Canadian.

ps ... You haven't earned it until you've paid your taxes.

That's the cost of being Canadian, eh?

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!

[Smallc]

So now your paycheck is a resource that collectively belongs to all of us? Okay comrade. One other note: According to your beloved federal documents, the resources of Alberta belong to Alberta. Not all of "us".

Yes, resources do belong to the province, but Equalization is designed to ensure that all people in Canada get to share in some of the wealth generated by the resources.

[Hydraboss]

And I pay my taxes without complaining because I am Canadian.

So you're offering to pay the extra $20,000 that people in other parts of the country aren't required to pay? Excellent.

As for love it or leave it, as soon as my employer signs that little "sponsor" form, I'm gone. US bound. Unfortunately, time runs slow on the US-Canada work visa application process.

[Hydraboss]

Yes, resources do belong to the province, but Equalization is designed to ensure that all people in Canada get to share in some of the wealth generated by the resources.

So equalization isn't about ensuring that all Canadians have access to the same basic services at comparable tax rates (as you said), it's about "sharing the wealth".

Glad we cleared that up.

Ontario will be especially happy to grab $347 million of "shared wealth" this year because, as we all know, the province is a "one trick pony with an economy based on a couple of auto manufacturers and not much else".