BC ELECTION POLL

[madmax]

Who's the scammer who voted AFTER the results

The Usual Suspect?

Keyser Söze

[WIP]

I admit to being pessimistic about electoral reforms or accountable transparent government. That said, and despite the recent apathetic tone of my thoughts towards voting I voted yes for STV. I didn't vote for either the Liberals or the NDP and I don't think STV will get the 60% it needs.

That's a shame because unless more people begin to realize how much damage the established political parties have done to the democratic process, no meaningful election reform is possible!

One thing is certain, the Liberals, N.D.P., and the Conservatives are not going to do anything to aid in the removal of their hegemony over the present system. The Big Three, just like the Democratic Party and the Republican Party stateside, are somehow able to cooperate and work for mutual benefit, when it comes to maintaining and expanding their respective power bases.

Here in Ontario, during the last provincial election, the Liberals made a half-hearted and half-assed attempt to honour their pledge of putting proportional representation on the ballot -- they were obligated because the MMP mixed member proportional system that would have set aside 1/4 of the seats in Parliament by popular vote, was a proposed reform from the Premier's own election reform commission. But, just to make sure the FPTP system won, they offered no public support for proportional seats in the Provincial Parliament, and Elections Ontario didn't send out even basic information about the MMP referendum until two weeks before the election. End result was that the avalanche of propaganda that saturated radio, TV, and Newspapers on the issue from the major parties was enough to kill off support for MMP, and the measure only received about one third of the vote.

I don't know how many conversations I had, leading up to that election where people parroted stupid statements they heard on the radio like: "our MPP's will be working for their parties instead of for their constituents." I don't know how much constituency work your reps do out in B.C., but here in Ontario, that's a totally assinine statement since, aside from a few outliers, every MP and MPP does whatever the party whip tells him or her to do.....water under the bridge I suppose, but in the meantime, how many issues are ignored because they don't fit the immediate needs or goals of the two or three parties that have seats in the legislatures?

[WIP]

The conventional wisdom, that Green voters take votes from NDP, may not apply as much as usual. Carol James' position on the carbon tax may have cost her support among environment voters.

-k

And that's a point that socialists in the NDP can't seem to wrap their brains around! They have a default assumption that environment is a left wing issue, and since they are the left wing party, they own it by default. So, from back East, it appears that the B.C. NDP decided it was an issue that can be kicked aside if it stands in the way of regaining power.

Federally, they have supported Cap and Trade (just like Harper's Tories) because the pain can be hidden from public view in a complicated, bureaucratic and corruption prone system, whereas carbon taxes put the pain of reducing CO2 emissions up front, on full public display. To me, this illustrates that Left is not synonymous with environmentally friendly! If it was, we wouldn't have discovered all of those horror stories from Eastern Europe, after the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

So, people don't like paying taxes! Then reduce income taxes to compensate for the increased cost at the pump. If the BC NDP saw environment as an issue of grave importance, rather than a chit to play at the latest political poker game, they wouldn't have bargained it away to try to win an election!

[Mr.Canada]

Gordon Campbell is doing many great things in that province. It's hard to believe he's a Liberal. His party is more conservative then the Federal Tories. Finally some people are waking up and pushing back against the hard left sissy's who refuse to work and want free handouts and more injection clinics which give nothing back to society just cause hardship and pain.

[madmax]

One thing is certain, the Liberals, N.D.P., and the Conservatives are not going to do anything to aid in the removal of their hegemony over the present system. The Big Three, ...

Here in Ontario, during the last provincial election

Anything that refers to the NDP as part of "the Big three" is absurd. The NDP especially the Ontario NDP is not BIG in any way shape or form. The Ontario NDP do have a number of elected MPPs who work their tails off to get elected and re elected. But the party is not "big" neither is their caucus.

There is little doubt that there are two very strong parties Provincially in Ontario and Federally across the Country.

After that, neither of the two larger parties are interested in serious electoral reform.

However, our voting public couldn't give a tinkers darn about electoral reform after the last referendum in Ontario and recently in BC where not only were these initiatives Defeated. The public stayed home rather then choose change.

[madmax]

And that's a point that socialists in the NDP can't seem to wrap their brains around! They have a default assumption that environment is a left wing issue, and since they are the left wing party, they own it by default.

The NDP has strong environmental credentials and policies. That doesn't mean they own the environment. No party holds ownership of the environment.

So, from back East, it appears that the B.C. NDP decided it was an issue that can be kicked aside if it stands in the way of regaining power.

I don't recall the BC NDP kicking aside the environment. They did campaign to remove a tax that would fail to achieve any goals other then line the pockets of the Liberal Government.

Federally, they have supported Cap and Trade (just like Harper's Tories)

Don't confuse cap and trade with "intensity targets". Two very different animals. However, the Liberals do flip flop on Cap and Trade and the Green Party choose to NOT campaign on Cap and Trade, but choose the useless "Carbon Tax" much like the Liberals Did hoping it would be an easy sell if they pretended it was revenue neutral and did good things.

So... if the NDP support Cap and Trade, and you claim the CPC support Cap and Trade and We know the Liberals support CAP and TRADE, and the Green Party supports CAP AND TRADE, that means ALL the parties federally support the same policy, therefore the NDP are correct in promoting something universal and that has a CAP on emmissions.

That is GOOD.

The BC NDP Support CAP and TRADE and not Carbon Tax, just like the Federal NDP. The reason for that is that a Carbon Tax punishes the poor the most, especially if one is using the persons need for home heating as the reason to give INCOME Tax breaks to the Rich.

Its not about the "Environment" its about "WHO" pays. And as for the environment, the Carbon Tax doesn't do anything to help the environment but requires people to pollute in order to generate revenue.

because the pain can be hidden from public view in a complicated, bureaucratic and corruption prone system, whereas carbon taxes put the pain of reducing CO2 emissions up front, on full public display.

HAHAHAHAHA that is such bullshit.

To me, this illustrates that Left is not synonymous with environmentally friendly! If it was, we wouldn't have discovered all of those horror stories from Eastern Europe, after the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

You mean there was no Industrial Revolution in Britain and the United States. That the buildings that are JET BLACK IN THE UK are not from the Vast Number of COAL that used to be burned in both Industry and Homes.

it was the Labour movement and the left that started the long way back to trying to clean things up, each time facing the most powerful forces of the era. Industrialization. Today, that has been replaced with Rampant Land Development and Mall Itis, and HOMES upon Homes and a growth based economy over a Production based economy. Same reason there are few family farms today.

Somehow, the fact that Industrializations 2nd major wave is occurring in China, leads you to believe that it is ok if they build 10 more coal plants within a city to harness Cheap energy for their production, so that they can send consumer goods over here.

... you'd prefer that instead of their carbon being accounted for and challenged by our cleaner production in Canada, that we simply import the goods, send them all our gas, don't carbon tax it, but make certain every working person in BC is hit with an uncompetitive tax that punishes those in BC and praises those living in China.

So, people don't like paying taxes! Then reduce income taxes to compensate for the increased cost at the pump. If the BC NDP saw environment as an issue of grave importance, rather than a chit to play at the latest political poker game, they wouldn't have bargained it away to try to win an election!

It's a shitty program worthy of the Liberals. Regardless you are in good company as the Liberals implemented the tax, won the election on the tax, hold a majority government and can raise your Carbon Tax in the future.

I am glad I do not have to pay that assinine tax.

Edited May 15, 2009 by madmax

[WIP]

Anything that refers to the NDP as part of "the Big three" is absurd. The NDP especially the Ontario NDP is not BIG in any way shape or form. The Ontario NDP do have a number of elected MPPs who work their tails off to get elected and re elected. But the party is not "big" neither is their caucus.

You can thank Bob Rae for the Party's misfortunes over the last 15 years or so, and I know the NDP has always had some good social activists who are great at local constituency work -- that's the only reason some like Dave Christopherson survived the 95 landslide. The majority of Rae's MPP's went back to their old jobs on city councils and school boards etc. But the Party, especially at the national level, is focused on replacing the Liberals as opposition party, and any issue can be added or subtracted to meet that goal.

However, our voting public couldn't give a tinkers darn about electoral reform after the last referendum in Ontario and recently in BC where not only were these initiatives Defeated. The public stayed home rather then choose change.

The present system encourages voter apathy - many issues never get discussed in Parliament, and most people are turned off by the reality that the local rep is there to represent his party to his constituents, rather than represent his constituents in the legislature.

[WIP]

The NDP has strong environmental credentials and policies. That doesn't mean they own the environment. No party holds ownership of the environment.

I don't recall the BC NDP kicking aside the environment. They did campaign to remove a tax that would fail to achieve any goals other then line the pockets of the Liberal Government.

]

I can't wade in too deep on local issues, but the federal NDP also campaigned against carbon taxes, in favour of cap and trade - which should be called corruption and trade!

Don't confuse cap and trade with "intensity targets". Two very different animals. However, the Liberals do flip flop on Cap and Trade and the Green Party choose to NOT campaign on Cap and Trade, but choose the useless "Carbon Tax" much like the Liberals Did hoping it would be an easy sell if they pretended it was revenue neutral and did good things.

So... if the NDP support Cap and Trade, and you claim the CPC support Cap and Trade and We know the Liberals support CAP and TRADE, and the Green Party supports CAP AND TRADE, that means ALL the parties federally support the same policy, therefore the NDP are correct in promoting something universal and that has a CAP on emmissions.

That is GOOD.

No, it isn't! Cap and trade will mean a bureaucracy trading carbon credits, and no doubt taking payoffs under the table. A tax shows the environmental costs up front, where they cannot be ignored or bargained away. The Liberals are already a different party than they were under Stephan Dion, so it's no comfort that they will adopt the same do nothing strategy that the Conservatives and NDP will follow.

The BC NDP Support CAP and TRADE and not Carbon Tax, just like the Federal NDP. The reason for that is that a Carbon Tax punishes the poor the most, especially if one is using the persons need for home heating as the reason to give INCOME Tax breaks to the Rich.

Then if it's regressive, adjust the income taxes to compensate. There's no getting away from the fact that people would make different buying decisions, including how far away they choose to live from their workplace, if they have to pay extra for it.

[Goat Boy©]

Who's the scammer who voted AFTER the results

The Usual Suspect?

Keyser Söze

It was me actually. I haven't been here for some time.

[Goat Boy©]

No, it isn't! Cap and trade will mean a bureaucracy trading carbon credits, and no doubt taking payoffs under the table. A tax shows the environmental costs up front, where they cannot be ignored or bargained away. The Liberals are already a different party than they were under Stephan Dion, so it's no comfort that they will adopt the same do nothing strategy that the Conservatives and NDP will follow.

All you have to say to a swing voter is that George W. Bush also pushed Cap & Trade. NDP instantly scandalized.

Then if it's regressive, adjust the income taxes to compensate. There's no getting away from the fact that people would make different buying decisions, including how far away they choose to live from their workplace, if they have to pay extra for it.

Not too mention with the minuscule %, and smaller consumption by the poor, the wealthy actually do end up paying far more. But don't count on BC NDP policy to make sense or be truth.

[Oleg Bach]

Round up the usual suspects....and send them to Newfoundland - then bring back the old Barrett socialist government that would hand out welfare cards to every hitch hiking hippy that crossed the great devide...yes that was well over thirty years ago - free money - and an mountain view - set up the free money system and I will return..but it has to be substatial...early pensions for all - and lets not call it social assistance...