'We're just worried about the land'

[tango]

'We're just worried about the land'

Posted By SUSAN GAMBLE, EXPOSITOR STAFF

Friday night's TRUE meeting seemed to be a meeting of the minds.

Four representatives of the Haudenosaunee Men's Fire offered a history lesson and an explanation of why land under construction by Empire Homes off Conklin Road and other properties in Brantford are so critical to the Six Nations people.

And Caledonia resident Ken Hewitt -- once the spokesman for the Caledonia Citizen's Alliance -- explained why he's seeking a public investigation into a "two-tiered justice system" that he says favours natives.

Hewitt has about 7,000 signatures on a petition calling for an Ipperwash-style inquiry into OPP actions.

Hewitt said mistakes have been made on both sides and he feels the OPP have been victims of confused leadership.

Haldimand-Norfolk MPP Toby Barrett, who supports the petition, told more than 100 people at Laurier's Odeon building that he doubts his private member's bill demanding an investigation will pass second reading in March.

Also in the audience was Haldimand County Mayor Marie Trainer.

The Men's Fire representatives -- Gene Johns, Stan Farmer, Wes Elliott and Kelly Curley -- worked to explain to the crowd that they operate under treaty law rather than Canadian law.

The group, a traditional gathering that can include all men and is charged with the duty of protecting the land, the women and children, says it was reignited during the Douglas Creek Estates protest in Caledonia after being dormant for years.

The protests at Empire Homes in particular are due to the land being part of the Clench tract, said Johns, which is a matter under litigation in the courts.

"Everybody is worried about their home and getting eviction notices," said Johns. "Tell everybody their house is fine. We're just worried about the land."

Johns -- who has been arrested for his part in trying to stop construction at the Conklin Road site -- encouraged people affected by the Empire protest or concerned about their own house to contact the Men's Fire representatives to talk.

Farmer said the men were compelled to try and stop houses from being built on land they consider theirs as a way of protecting the remaining greenbelt areas.

"Hamilton is having a problem with coyotes but you've interfered with their business, just like us. The animals need to have a place to hunt and fish, just like us."

Audience member Gary Horsnell questioned why the Men's Fire is protesting at land it has no chance of having returned, according to the government.

But Curley said that's the reason they protest at sites before houses are erected.

"The federal government says it won't displace people, so if there's no house on the land, we have a right to that land."

Farmer appealed to the non-natives in the crowd to consider the commitment and lack of sleep many of the protesters endure for their cause.

"Don't look at me as a warrior or terrorist. I'm an individual born to an obligation. We're trying to keep the treaty of peace," said Farmer.

Article ID# 1456206

[madmax]

I prefer a little more comment and a little less content in a post. A link would be nice too. Just posting an article in its entirey is not a discussion.

(My comments below are coming from some 2nd hand sources, so, bear with me as I try to be as accurate as possible, but it is hearsay, mixed with some of what I saw on TV and read in the articles.)

CHCH TV covered this meeting. Toby Barrett, Ken Hewitt, and Marie Trainer found their way to this meeting in Brantford. Missing from this meeting was ALL of Brantfords City Councillors and its Mayor. Brants MPP Dave Levac And Brants MP Phil McColeman were also MIA on a Friday Night.

Considering Six Nations is in the Brant Riding, and the spokespersons, leaders, mayors and MPPs From Haldimand and Six Nations made the effort to come to Brantford, I can see why the people of Caledonia feel abandoned by the Federal Conservatives and McGuinty Liberals.

Toby Barrett is a Conservative MPP. The Riding of Brant is held by a Liberal MPP and thus like the Liberal Government in MIA. Toby Barrett has signed the petition of Ken Hewitts for a public Inquiry.

Apparently Diane Finley Conservative MP for Haldimand of which Caledonia is a party of, has signed too, but she doesn't have any interest in doing her part federally, nor in making an appearance.

Local BRANT MP Phil McColeman also a Conservative was not there?

The Brantford Mayor was not there, but Caledonia Mayor was and she has received negative press, but at least she is willing do travel and do whatever it takes to move the ball an inch forward.

Apparently Every Politician in Haldimand and Brant was invited to come to this public forum.

Even Ian Nichols, an NDP Candidate from Haldimand travelled to Brantford.

It was apparent that those with the power and authority, who should have been there weren't.

Hewitt has made progress with his petition and yet Barrett says his Private Members Bill for an inquiry is unlikely to succeed in the Majority Liberal Government.

It was interesting to hear that one of the Largest Land Developers in Brantford was at the meeting and totally disgusted that there were no local politicians at this meeting nor anyone from the Government representing the Federal Conservatives or the Ontario Liberals. NOT A HAPPY CAMPER!

No wonder the people of Caledonia, and Six Nations feel abandoned by their politicians who are ultimately to answer for the mess. They have gone into hiding.

The injunction hasn't worked, as even with Six Nations Mens Fire removed from the Kingspan Site, Kingspan is suing the City of Brantford for failure to disclose documents they had prior to its purchase of the land. ANOTHER UNHAPPY CAMPER!

To see a citizen Ken Hewitt, make the trip to Brantford, and speak before a Group of the Mens Fire, and the Mens Fire to Speak with Hewitt and Barrett in the audience shows the progress that grass roots organizing is achieving vs Government Stall tactics and Legal Manuevers.

It was clear that the group was diverse and the only common thread was that they ALL wanted to see progress in the midst of Governments that Are not doing their job and appear to be allowing all the victims of this to be ignored, and unheard.

To think that Ken actually offered to rewrite his Petition to accomodate a more direct wording for the resolution that came off the floor from a member of Six Nations was truly remarkable.

As you may be aware, I harped in another thread that Ken was a lobbyiest of sorts for the Land Developer who walked away with a fistfull of dollars. Clearly he is acting as a concerned citizen caught in the midst of a conflict, and he said his position has been fluid over the past 3 years because of all the facts that he has learned in that time.

One of the interesting facts to come out was that a piece of land is in the courts for 14 years and that is was owned/held by the Province and contested by Six Nations, was then sold by the Province to Empire Homes in 2008 who then began building residential housing.

A letter from a member from Six Nations to the Liberal Government asks for comment on this activity.

The Response is rather short.

We cannot comment on this tract of land because it has been in litegation since 1995.

Apparently it brought groans from the audience.

[charter.rights]

I prefer a little more comment and a little less content in a post. A link would be nice too. Just posting an article in its entirey is not a discussion.

(My comments below are coming from some 2nd hand sources, so, bear with me as I try to be as accurate as possible, but it is hearsay, mixed with some of what I saw on TV and read in the articles.)

CHCH TV covered this meeting. Toby Barrett, Ken Hewitt, and Marie Trainer found their way to this meeting in Brantford. Missing from this meeting was ALL of Brantfords City Councillors and its Mayor. Brants MPP Dave Levac And Brants MP Phil McColeman were also MIA on a Friday Night.

Considering Six Nations is in the Brant Riding, and the spokespersons, leaders, mayors and MPPs From Haldimand and Six Nations made the effort to come to Brantford, I can see why the people of Caledonia feel abandoned by the Federal Conservatives and McGuinty Liberals.

Toby Barrett is a Conservative MPP. The Riding of Brant is held by a Liberal MPP and thus like the Liberal Government in MIA. Toby Barrett has signed the petition of Ken Hewitts for a public Inquiry.

Apparently Diane Finley Conservative MP for Haldimand of which Caledonia is a party of, has signed too, but she doesn't have any interest in doing her part federally, nor in making an appearance.

Local BRANT MP Phil McColeman also a Conservative was not there?

The Brantford Mayor was not there, but Caledonia Mayor was and she has received negative press, but at least she is willing do travel and do whatever it takes to move the ball an inch forward.

Apparently Every Politician in Haldimand and Brant was invited to come to this public forum.

Even Ian Nichols, an NDP Candidate from Haldimand travelled to Brantford.

It was apparent that those with the power and authority, who should have been there weren't.

Hewitt has made progress with his petition and yet Barrett says his Private Members Bill for an inquiry is unlikely to succeed in the Majority Liberal Government.

It was interesting to hear that one of the Largest Land Developers in Brantford was at the meeting and totally disgusted that there were no local politicians at this meeting nor anyone from the Government representing the Federal Conservatives or the Ontario Liberals. NOT A HAPPY CAMPER!

No wonder the people of Caledonia, and Six Nations feel abandoned by their politicians who are ultimately to answer for the mess. They have gone into hiding.

The injunction hasn't worked, as even with Six Nations Mens Fire removed from the Kingspan Site, Kingspan is suing the City of Brantford for failure to disclose documents they had prior to its purchase of the land. ANOTHER UNHAPPY CAMPER!

To see a citizen Ken Hewitt, make the trip to Brantford, and speak before a Group of the Mens Fire, and the Mens Fire to Speak with Hewitt and Barrett in the audience shows the progress that grass roots organizing is achieving vs Government Stall tactics and Legal Manuevers.

It was clear that the group was diverse and the only common thread was that they ALL wanted to see progress in the midst of Governments that Are not doing their job and appear to be allowing all the victims of this to be ignored, and unheard.

To think that Ken actually offered to rewrite his Petition to accomodate a more direct wording for the resolution that came off the floor from a member of Six Nations was truly remarkable.

As you may be aware, I harped in another thread that Ken was a lobbyiest of sorts for the Land Developer who walked away with a fistfull of dollars. Clearly he is acting as a concerned citizen caught in the midst of a conflict, and he said his position has been fluid over the past 3 years because of all the facts that he has learned in that time.

One of the interesting facts to come out was that a piece of land is in the courts for 14 years and that is was owned/held by the Province and contested by Six Nations, was then sold by the Province to Empire Homes in 2008 who then began building residential housing.

A letter from a member from Six Nations to the Liberal Government asks for comment on this activity.

The Response is rather short.

We cannot comment on this tract of land because it has been in litegation since 1995.

Apparently it brought groans from the audience.

First of all the T.R.U.E. (Two Row Understanding through Education) is not set up for a media or political circus. The attenadence of all thoses politicians would likely turn it into one. Rather, TRUE is a grass roots organization made up of Six Nations and Brantford people who want to talk about the issues casually, answer any questions people may have and try to bridge the gap in understanding, by discussing fears and concerns in an open forum.

Following the Court cases and in particular the Brantford injunction it is becoming increasingly clear that not only is Brantford not going to get the injunction, but their actions violated the Municipal Act, and their constitutional obligation to consult Six Nations. The Amicus Curiea appointed by the court to advise on the issues goes to great lengths to sanction Brantford and the Province for failing their duty. Further the Amicus suggests that municipalities have an equal responsibility as the province to start consultation on any land where native interest may be affect, and that includes lands that may not have a current land claim and where the municipality has been notified by the nation that they have non-frivolous concerns about development impacting their interest. This will have long-reaching implications for any municipality developing anywhere in the Haldimand Tract.

Of particular interest in the last week or so, the BC Supreme Court also ruled that development cannot proceed until the entire consultation and accommodation process has been completed, and even if there is a stalemate, the development can be held up indefinitely so long as the Crown and the First Nation are engaged in meaningful negotiation.

As it turns out Brantford Council's head in the sand approach to blindly allowing development on contested lands by saying that they are not required to consult is a sham. Therefore the stoppage of work at Empire Home's site in Hagersville is within Six Nations legal right. Given that consultation is recognized as a responsibility of the municipalities we can expect many more subdivision and commercial-industrial-institutional development sites to be closed by Six Nations with the complete blessing of the Courts.

Since the Six Nations lawsuit and injunction request against Brantford Council has yet to be heard, it is likely that they will succeed in stopping all development in the Haldimand at least until the developers, the municipalities and other thrid parties have fully consulted with the Haudenosaunee Development Institute and the HDI has approved the application in full according to their own guidelines.

[madmax]

First of all the T.R.U.E. (Two Row Understanding through Education) is not set up for a media or political circus. The attenadence of all thoses politicians would likely turn it into one. Rather, TRUE is a grass roots organization made up of Six Nations and Brantford people who want to talk about the issues casually, answer any questions people may have and try to bridge the gap in understanding, by discussing fears and concerns in an open forum.

You need not quote my entire post, as it was the one immediately before yours. That will keep you out of the MLW admins badbooks.

Considering that MEDIA invites were sent out to papers as far away as the Dunneville Chronical, and that coverage of this meeting was in the Brantford Expositor, CKPC, and CHCH television in Hamilton tells me TRUE wanted the media there.

Considering that TRUE invited EVERY POLITICIAN to Fridays meeting an NONE, ZERO, ZIP, NADA, came out who resided and represented Brantford and Brant riding speaks volumes of their interest in understanding Land Claims or doing their duty on behalf of their constituents.

ZERO is a BIG F9038403ing NUMBER when over 13 Politicians from Brantford are invited to one of the most important issues in their riding and they don't show.

Compared to the fact that TRUE invited politicians from Caledonia and Haldimand and they came to Brantford says volumes about their interest in dealings with land claims and willingness to participate in a TRUE meeting.

I can tell you for certain, you don't invite Politicians and the Media if you DON'T want them to come. I understand that TRUE is an open forum, much like a town hall meeting.

There is no doubt that TRUE wanted these people to be in attendance.

There is no doubt that politicians in Brantford are afraid to walk into a room full of people whom they represent, for fear they may get asked a question.

No matter what work TRUE does, it is undermined by politicians not doing their job. LISTENING is part of their job. By not being at the meeting, the Brantford Mayor, Councillors, Dave Levac MPP and Phil McColeman, heard everything they wanted to hear. Nothing.

Haldimand Politicians who came to listen, are taking back something from the meeting.

As for the HDI, its legitimacy is yet to be determined.

Who on Six Nations has given HDI legitimacy? Perhaps it will become the Legitimate administrator, perhaps it will disapear or perhaps it will morph into something else.

[charter.rights]

As for the HDI, its legitimacy is yet to be determined.

Who on Six Nations has given HDI legitimacy? Perhaps it will become the Legitimate administrator, perhaps it will disapear or perhaps it will morph into something else.

The Amicus Curiea provided expert testimony to the Court at the Brantford injunction hearing that the HDI is Six Nations legitimate representative on planning matters and that Brantford should be dealing directly with them.

[madmax]

The Amicus Curiea provided expert testimony to the Court at the Brantford injunction hearing that the HDI is Six Nations legitimate representative on planning matters and that Brantford should be dealing directly with them.

And the Amicus is only a guideline to help the court. Like I said, expert testimony is in the Amicus. It can be accepted as the Legitimate Representative. What happens in another group wishes to be the representative on planning matters? I know of no other group, but what if? And what if the Confederacy CHiefs, Mens Fire etc. decide they don't support the HDI, be it today or in the future? Are they stuck with the HDI?

Regardless, it becomes very apparent that the City should have been talking to whoever is the legitimate representatives of Six Nations.

The City, looks to be in bad shape for both the injunction and the KingSpan lawsuit?

Their lawyer needs to be fired, but I expect he will make a fortune on this....

[charter.rights]

And the Amicus is only a guideline to help the court. Like I said, expert testimony is in the Amicus. It can be accepted as the Legitimate Representative. What happens in another group wishes to be the representative on planning matters? I know of no other group, but what if? And what if the Confederacy CHiefs, Mens Fire etc. decide they don't support the HDI, be it today or in the future? Are they stuck with the HDI?

Regardless, it becomes very apparent that the City should have been talking to whoever is the legitimate representatives of Six Nations.

The City, looks to be in bad shape for both the injunction and the KingSpan lawsuit?

Their lawyer needs to be fired, but I expect he will make a fortune on this....

The HDI is the official planning reviewer of the Confederacy and were appointed by the Confederacy to act in those matters, since the Chiefs had no time or expertise to review development applications. As such there is no one who can argue that.

The Amicus factum also pointed out that giving notice development applications to Six Nations does not in their opinion constitute "consultation". Brantford has been very bad.

[tango]

The HDI is the official planning reviewer of the Confederacy and were appointed by the Confederacy to act in those matters, since the Chiefs had no time or expertise to review development applications. As such there is no one who can argue that.

The Amicus factum also pointed out that giving notice development applications to Six Nations does not in their opinion constitute "consultation". Brantford has been very bad.

Link to Amicus report to Brantford Superior Court. This is an independent research report commissioned by the judge to the court.

Amicus/Factum

I recommend reading the last few paragraphs - Summary of the position of the Amicus.

Edited March 7, 2009 by tango

[Oleg Bach]

Link to Amicus report to Brantford Superior Court. This is an independent research report commissioned by the judge to the court.

Amicus/Factum

Don't know how you guys can keep doing it...what a profession! Took one look at the factum and could not bring myself to take it seriously. After toying as laymen for over 5 years and reading ALL of the materials..well - all I can say is that it takes full force of concentration and energy - but genetics has a bit to do with it - my ancestors were legalist and I found out one thing about myself - that I could see what others do not -- give me a docmement and my preditorial nature will find the smallest defect and I will take that tiny pin prick and open it to a wide gaping wound.. Yes I found out that I was good at it...but it's really a waste of human mind and energy - good luck and have fun. It is either the truth or a non-realty spun into a convolutional state - I prefere to use the sword to cut the Gordinian knot.

[tango]

Don't know how you guys can keep doing it...what a profession! Took one look at the factum and could not bring myself to take it seriously. After toying as laymen for over 5 years and reading ALL of the materials..well - all I can say is that it takes full force of concentration and energy - but genetics has a bit to do with it - my ancestors were legalist and I found out one thing about myself - that I could see what others do not -- give me a docmement and my preditorial nature will find the smallest defect and I will take that tiny pin prick and open it to a wide gaping wound.. Yes I found out that I was good at it...but it's really a waste of human mind and energy - good luck and have fun. It is either the truth or a non-realty spun into a convolutional state - I prefere to use the sword to cut the Gordinian knot.

Oleg sometimes your posts are insightful, and other times they add absolutely nothing to a discussion.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg sometimes your posts are insightful, and other times they add absolutely nothing to a discussion.

Yes I know - when I waste your time and my own..Clicking away is much like my painting - sometimes I go though the motions like a meditative chant - and other times I get serious...sorry for any obstruction because today I ran out of paint and smokes --- and this computer is my only diversion.

[tango]

Well here's a hint: It's considered polite here to stick to the topic - ie, not derail the thread.

Injunction hearing resumes tomorrow morning in Brantford Superior Court.

[madmax]

Well here's a hint: It's considered polite here to stick to the topic - ie, not derail the thread.

Injunction hearing resumes tomorrow morning in Brantford Superior Court.

There are some quotes in the Dunneville Chronicle from Caledonia Mayor, Toby Barrett regarding the last TRUE meeting. It is not available online without registering, although it is free to do so.

Very different perspective from the usual bashing.

[eyeball]

Of particular interest in the last week or so, the BC Supreme Court also ruled that development cannot proceed until the entire consultation and accommodation process has been completed, and even if there is a stalemate, the development can be held up indefinitely so long as the Crown and the First Nation are engaged in meaningful negotiation.

I support 1st Nations in their attempts to negotiate the best settlements they can but I have a real problem with the senior governments doing all the representations non-natives may need to make with 1st Nations. I've been put out of business because of this very process. It just didn't matter how much I discussed my plans with local chiefs or how many letters of support they might attach to my applications, the province (BC) still insisted on using its own referral process and my applications would disappear down a black hole never to surface until it was way too late.

I can appreciate that native governments lack the capacity to deal with the deluge of referrals and applications they recieve but the fact that our governments can't or won't move faster than a slug on valium will create a mess.

In my region the Hesquiaht and Ahousaht nations have declared that any and all economic activity will now have to be vetted by them, this includes existing business' that have been operating for decades. The silence from our MP's and MLA's is deafening. They haven't responded to this and a lot of new proposed stuff is on hold and existing business' are afraid they will be blockaded.

I honestly believe our senior governments are deliberately sabatoging relationships between native and non-natives in the same way they divided many a native nation in the past. Its despicable.

[Oleg Bach]

The gov has a tacit policy that devides men from woman - wives from husbands...devide and conquer is not just applied to 1st Nations and their white allies. Any united group is a threat - whether it be a unitied nuclear family or a truely united population - multi-culturalism and ghettoization is also a great example of this same old trick --- as long as we are at each others throats - we rule our selves and they sit back and enjoy.

[charter.rights]

In my region the Hesquiaht and Ahousaht nations have declared that any and all economic activity will now have to be vetted by them, this includes existing business' that have been operating for decades. The silence from our MP's and MLA's is deafening. They haven't responded to this and a lot of new proposed stuff is on hold and existing business' are afraid they will be blockaded.

It gets worse...since the BC Government is proposing legislation recognizing aboriginal right and title over all lands in BC. By doing this every development is automatically triggered for consultation and so First Nations will no longer be required to prove in court that a treaty or aboriginal right exist.

This is basically how it has always legally been but governments have forced FN to go to court to argue against development all the while development proceeded. Once buildings and infrastructure was on the land the only way out for FN's was to take a settlement in lieu of their own unsurrendered land.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/...l-endorsed.html

[eyeball]

It gets worse...since the BC Government is proposing legislation recognizing aboriginal right and title over all lands in BC. By doing this every development is automatically triggered for consultation and so First Nations will no longer be required to prove in court that a treaty or aboriginal right exist.

This is basically how it has always legally been but governments have forced FN to go to court to argue against development all the while development proceeded. Once buildings and infrastructure was on the land the only way out for FN's was to take a settlement in lieu of their own unsurrendered land.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/...l-endorsed.html

In the case of land that has now been ceded through treaty, they want to collect the fees, royalties and taxes that are generated by economic activity which I think is entirely appropriate . If the senior governments insist on acting as the collection agency for 1st Nations in addition to imposing their own fees, royalties and taxes however...I see nothing but real trouble ahead.

Too many chiefs is one thing but too many governments is more than anyone should have to bear.

[charter.rights]

In the case of land that has now been ceded through treaty, they want to collect the fees, royalties and taxes that are generated by economic activity which I think is entirely appropriate . If the senior governments insist on acting as the collection agency for 1st Nations in addition to imposing their own fees, royalties and taxes however...I see nothing but real trouble ahead.

Too many chiefs is one thing but too many governments is more than anyone should have to bear.

Most treaties surrendered lands but also entrenched rights for hunting and fishing, as well as some resource rights. That gives First Nations the right to be consulted where those aboriginal or treaty rights may be affected by development. The courts have held that having hunting, fishing and resource rights on ceded land also gives individuals the right to earn a modern moderate income from the land and collectively gives First Nations Bands a right to be consulted.

While I agree that too many levels of government is not a good thing, we have also been ignoring these legal rights of First Nations for 200 years or more when our government and the British before them guaranteed that they would be able to use the land forever, and then promptly reneged. We also find that First Nations are getting the shaft in the modern treaties negotiated since 1990's that provide for a say in development and a share in the profits from resource management - something our government again has ignored. Constitutionally, First Nations governmental obligations sit right up there with the federal government's responsibility to us.

I say it is about time that we start respecting our legal and Charter obligations. If we are going to succeed as a nation for the next 100 years or so we'll have to reconcile not only the historical treatment of native people but also their future prosperity that was entrenched in (or will be entrenched in) treaty and pre-existing aboriginal rights. Holding up development for years while the federal government refuses legitimate claims does nothing to benefit us or them. And just like conservation authorities and environmental assessments were seen as obstacles to development, once there was a process in place to deal with those concerns there was little delay in moving forward.

Edited March 10, 2009 by charter.rights

[eyeball]

Most treaties surrendered lands but also entrenched rights for hunting and fishing, as well as some resource rights. That gives First Nations the right to be consulted where those aboriginal or treaty rights may be affected by development. The courts have held that having hunting, fishing and resource rights on ceded land also gives individuals the right to earn a modern moderate income from the land and collectively gives First Nations Bands a right to be consulted.

While I agree that too many levels of government is not a good thing, we have also been ignoring these legal rights of First Nations for 200 years or more when our government and the British before them guaranteed that they would be able to use the land forever, and then promptly reneged. We also find that First Nations are getting the shaft in the modern treaties negotiated since 1990's that provide for a say in development and a share in the profits from resource management - something our government again has ignored. Constitutionally, First Nations governmental obligations sit right up there with the federal government's responsibility to us.

I say it is about time that we start respecting our legal and Charter obligations. If we are going to succeed as a nation for the next 100 years or so we'll have to reconcile not only the historical treatment of native people but also their future prosperity that was entrenched in (or will be entrenched in) treaty and pre-existing aboriginal rights. Holding up development for years while the federal government refuses legitimate claims does nothing to benefit us or them. And just like conservation authorities and environmental assessments were seen as obstacles to development, once there was a process in place to deal with those concerns there was little delay in moving forward.

I agree with what you're saying and I look forward to living under my Hawiih's authority. I think what I'm saying in simple economic terms though is that non-natives shouldn't have to bear a new level of taxation from a new level of government without an offsetting deduction in taxes and levies that are paid to the others.

I'm all for having the seat of my region's real authority that much closer to where I live. I have no doubt I'd still be in business if I only had to deal with my Hawiih. If native people ever feel the urge to begin moving towards full independance from Ottawa or Victoria I'd gladly join them and never look back.

[Rue]

I support 1st Nations in their attempts to negotiate the best settlements they can but I have a real problem with the senior governments doing all the representations non-natives may need to make with 1st Nations. I've been put out of business because of this very process. It just didn't matter how much I discussed my plans with local chiefs or how many letters of support they might attach to my applications, the province (BC) still insisted on using its own referral process and my applications would disappear down a black hole never to surface until it was way too late.

I can appreciate that native governments lack the capacity to deal with the deluge of referrals and applications they recieve but the fact that our governments can't or won't move faster than a slug on valium will create a mess.

In my region the Hesquiaht and Ahousaht nations have declared that any and all economic activity will now have to be vetted by them, this includes existing business' that have been operating for decades. The silence from our MP's and MLA's is deafening. They haven't responded to this and a lot of new proposed stuff is on hold and existing business' are afraid they will be blockaded.

I honestly believe our senior governments are deliberately sabatoging relationships between native and non-natives in the same way they divided many a native nation in the past. Its despicable.

I have found all your comments including the above very interesting and insightful and for me present a new series of considerations to refer to in discussions as to peaceful and fair resolution to these issues. Thanks.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Rue

[eyeball]

I have found all your comments including the above very interesting and insightful and for me present a new series of considerations to refer to in discussions as to peaceful and fair resolution to these issues. Thanks.

You're welcome and good luck and please let me know how its going. I'm all ears and eyeballs when it comes to peaceful and fair resolutions.

[tango]

Province ordered to join court action

INJUNCTION HEARING

Posted By SUSAN GAMBLE, EXPOSITOR STAFF

Justice Harrison Arrell ordered the province to join the court action that's part of Brantford's ongoing push for an injunction against native protesters.

Lawyers for all others involved in the motion consented to the judge's order Friday.

When lawyers for Ontario show up March 17, the judge plans to hear from everyone about how the province's involvement will play out.

"Provincial participation will be determined after hearing submissions from all parties," Arrell said.

He has already warned the city and Six Nations that his inclination is to order a court mandated consultation process that will force the parties to negotiate a settlement with one another.

The city has been pushing for a long-term injunction against native protesters at development sites in Brantford, and have filed a $110-million court action against some of the protesters and the Haudenosaunee Development Institute.

Brant MPP Dave Levac said the province will be fine with the judge's order.

"We're ready to enter into negotiations at the level the judge is talking about," Levac said Friday. "We're already talking about a memorandum of understanding so I don't see why we wouldn't be a willing participant."

Earlier this week, Levac opposed a private member's bill from MPP Toby Barrett, pushing for an inquiry into protests in Caledonia.

Levac called the bill ill-advised and said it's premature to insinuate an injunction is an appropriate way to deal with protesters at this time.

On Thursday, the judge and the lawyers involved pondered how a mandated consultation could proceed. They made suggestions about how long it might go on, how often they'll return to the court for guidance, who will pay if a negotiator is needed and what kind of provision will be included for emergency flare-ups.

Arrell said he's likely going to have consultations include some future development and is unlikely to freeze development until a decision is reached on the injunction.

"For you to tell me 'no permits' until I reach my decision is not feasible," Arrell told Lou Strezos, the lawyer for the Haudenosaunee Development Institute. "What I'm trying to do now is simply strike a balance.

"You talk, Mr. Strezos, about a lot of good faith. I'm going to order (your clients) to consult and I'm going to order you people to try and settle this and if you don't settle it, you come back to court."

The hearing continues Tuesday at 11:30 a. m. in Superior Court.

The best outcome, of course, is that Brantford does not continue to attempt to use force of injunction, police or the "army on standby" as requested.

Instead, they will have to consult with Six Nations about the developments in Brantford on land in dispute, as they are legally required to do.

Factum of the Amicus

See para 187+ re legal responsibility of municipalities re 'duty to consult':

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13041574/Factum

Edited March 15, 2009 by tango

[madmax]

Looks like the injunction is going down. One sign of this is that Liberal MPPs usually hide in the bush, and never speak on one side of an issue or another until they see a winner.

I haven't heard any Liberal Provincial Criticism of the injunction in Brantford, yet now the Liberals are sending a message to the city that the did the wrong thing.

Nice to be the last ones to the party. It is not unusual for A Liberal to have meetings with the city agreeing, with what they have done, and then meet various community groups and say whichever is the most popular opinion in the group. Parrots are easy to come by.

I believe that the Federal Liberals were to afraid to even talk about the injunction, or make any statement. The Federal Conservatives were all for it.

Is the judge ruling on the Injunction, or acting as a mediator? And if he is acting as a mediator, why is this only between the Province and the City and Six Nations? Why is their no mention of the Federal government?

Shouldn't the judge rule on whether or not the injuction is valid. Period?

[charter.rights]

Looks like the injunction is going down. One sign of this is that Liberal MPPs usually hide in the bush, and never speak on one side of an issue or another until they see a winner.

I haven't heard any Liberal Provincial Criticism of the injunction in Brantford, yet now the Liberals are sending a message to the city that the did the wrong thing.

Nice to be the last ones to the party. It is not unusual for A Liberal to have meetings with the city agreeing, with what they have done, and then meet various community groups and say whichever is the most popular opinion in the group. Parrots are easy to come by.

I believe that the Federal Liberals were to afraid to even talk about the injunction, or make any statement. The Federal Conservatives were all for it.

Is the judge ruling on the Injunction, or acting as a mediator? And if he is acting as a mediator, why is this only between the Province and the City and Six Nations? Why is their no mention of the Federal government?

Shouldn't the judge rule on whether or not the injuction is valid. Period?

As far as I can tell the judge is in the dilemma that the by-law which triggered the injunction was illegal and by principle it renders the injunction invalid. However, there is a limited cause for Brantford to suffer some harm if protests continue, as is there is also harm that Six Nations could suffer through Brantford's refusal to consult. The balance between the two makes it necessary for the court to examine any possibility before rendering a verdict one way or the other. The only way to find that out would be for all parties, including the Province to enter into discussion over the merit of the claims and to come up with a process where development might continue while full consultation is taking place. This was presented as an option to the Court by the Amicus Cureai.

However, on a pure legal basis I think the court is in trouble since they could not issue an injunction even if they wanted to, given that it has been handed down by the SCoC that no injunction is possible until the court is satisfied that full consultation has taken place. To me that leaves the court with only one option - denial of the injunction - leaving the need for protest induced consultation to Six Nations, Brantford and the Province, independent of the Court's supervision. I think any other decision may trigger an appeal to a higher court.

[Griz]

Yes I know - when I waste your time and my own..Clicking away is much like my painting - sometimes I go though the motions like a meditative chant - and other times I get serious...sorry for any obstruction because today I ran out of paint and smokes --- and this computer is my only diversion.

Go have more vodka Oleg--damn drunkin caucasian guy :-)