Is Ignatieff politically incompetent?

[capricorn]

Is Ignatieff incompetent for letting his Newfoundland MP's free vote?

I think the question is more like was it a wise political move to allow those MPs to vote against the party on a question of confidence. In my view the answer is no. In the long run, this may undermine his image as a leader and his ability to maintain party solidarity.

The way I see it, unless Ignatieff wants all of Newfoundland to vote New Democrat in the next election, which could be sooner than anyone thinks, he should not alienate one person: Danny Williams.

The guy's in a tough position. His party has no cash, a recent history of ambiguous leadership, and his own reputation as a politician is relatively fresh. The balancing act this man must undergo to keep from poking the final hole in the Liberal ark is and continues to be difficult. Not only can he not alienate Williams, but he has only so much wiggle room between Stephen Harper and the Canadian people.

Good points.

[Mr.Canada]

1. The man has no work history in reality (prof in another country)- "Ignatieff volunteered for the Liberal Party during the 1965 federal election by canvassing the York South riding. He resumed his work for the Liberal Party in 1968, as a national youth organizer and party delegate for the Pierre Elliott Trudeau party leadership campaign....

He was so taken with PET that he fled Canada for 30 years soon after.

6. If I knew more about him, I might be inclined to vote for him. Refusing to vote for a person just because they're Liberal. How very Conservative of you.

It's called grassroots support.

[capricorn]

5. The man keeps his MP's on a very short chain - Allowed them to vote against the budget. How not so Conservative of him.

Whipped confidence votes are not exclusive to the Conservatives.

“It looks bad on Ignatieff and his control over his caucus,” said one long-time Liberal.

The optics of going against a leader in a budget vote are not good, which is why MPs are usually disciplined. In 2007, former Liberal MP Joe Comuzzi was kicked out of Stéphane Dion's caucus for pledging to support the Conservative budget. In 1996, John Nunziata was kicked out of Jean Chrétien's Liberal caucus for voting against the government's budget over what he considered a broken promise not to rescind the GST.

Others among the Liberals are wondering where it will stop. Could Newfoundland MPs break ranks again on another issue? And what about Quebec MPs, who are upset with some of the budget measures?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/politics/home

[Progressive Tory]

I like to hear opinions about the transfer of the equalization payments to all provinces, especially to NFLD. I think all provinces should be FAIRLY treated and if they can make money on the side, as in oil , both Alberta or NFLD, they shouldn't be penalized for it. Williams even offered to help out Ontario at one point. Harper appears to have a "problem" with the Atlantic provinces fromn way back.

The people of Saskatchewan were just as upset, not long ago, when he broke his promise to them about oil revenues.

[Progressive Tory]

Whipped confidence votes are not exclusive to the Conservatives.

We're not talking about Dion. This was in response to criticism aimed at Ignatieff. I never like Dion as a potential PM. Only voted Liberal last election as part of strategic voting. Next election I will be voting Liberal because they finally have a leader I can get behind. When the PC party bit the dust, I voted NDP because Paul Martin got on my last nerve. Again not PM material.

I think they finally got it right.

[Progressive Tory]

He was so taken with PET that he fled Canada for 30 years soon after.

It's called grassroots support.

This new party has gone against their grassroots with this budget. And don't give me the tired old, 'he had no choice'. He very much had a choice.

There is no longer a legitimate Conservative party in Canada. Harper's party is now in need of another name change. Since CPC was actually already claimed by the Communist Party of Canada, I like the IAAOJS (It's All About Our Jobs Stupid).

If they want to engage the grassroots now, they'd better roll it up and smoke it.

[Molly]

If the people of Saskatchewan were as upset, they sure didn't show it in October.

(I've spent time in both provinces lately. In NL, it's a blood issue. In Sask., it's-- meh-- politicking- not kitchen table important.)

[Mr.Canada]

This new party has gone against their grassroots with this budget. And don't give me the tired old, 'he had no choice'. He very much had a choice.

There is no longer a legitimate Conservative party in Canada. Harper's party is now in need of another name change. Since CPC was actually already claimed by the Communist Party of Canada, I like the IAAOJS (It's All About Our Jobs Stupid).

If they want to engage the grassroots now, they'd better roll it up and smoke it.

I

[Moonbox]

Actually, it's Harper who is usually accused of thinking he's the smartest person in the room. For Ignatieff, he is the smartest person in the room.

I don't think I've EVER seen more of a cheer leader on these forums than you when it comes to Iggy. Politicians should never be worshipped the way you worship Ignatieff nor the way the Americans are already worshipping Obama. He's been opposition leader for maybe two months now and has largely done NOTHING but you're talking about him like he's some sort of messiah.

Your praise for him has been based on fluffy qualitative nonsense and he's done nothing to distinguish himself from a right-wing CPC member. You've regularly failed to ignore that he's pro-torture, was pro-Iraq, lived longer outside of Canada than within and that he was one of the FEW opposition MP's who regularly supported an extension to the Afghanistan mission. He's the Americanization of the Liberal Party and deep down you know it.

With that said, I wouldn't cry if he became PM. It'd be like changing leaders from Harpernator model 101 to a disguised T1000 model (forgive the Terminator reference I just watched the movie).

However, while this diatribe is amusing, one million votes are still one million votes. He stole them from the Liberals, but then fenced them for beans. His majority was there. 850,000 votes up for grabs. Poof! He not only lost those but 170,000 people who voted for him last time just stayed home. So near and yet just so darn far.

There were 1 million fewer voters in 2008 because people pretty generally didn't care. The gross CPC vote was down 3% but their SHARE of the vote increased. The BQ vote was down 11% and their share of the vote went down, and the losses for the Liberals were STAGGERING.

You're absolutely right in that Harper totally blew his majority. Unlike you I can find fault in the man regardless of the fact that I voted for him. He's a snake and occasionally gaffs pretty big like the Quebec arts funding balogna. With that said, I still think he's better than the alternatives. Between the CPC right-wing hypocrite amero-wannabe and the LPC right-wing hypocrite amero-wannabe I'll take the one who at least felt Canada was worth living in the last 30 years.

[Mr.Canada]

This new party has gone against their grassroots with this budget. And don't give me the tired old, 'he had no choice'. He very much had a choice.

I don't disagree with you. I'm part of the grassroots and I've had it with Harper. I trust him more than Ignatieff and the Liberals but that isn't saying much. I'm hoping he steps down or announces he's done before the summer break this year, so we can vote in a new leader at this years convention.

[madmax]

After reading your post, I had an idea of what arrogance really is... Good luck with that.

IMHO

[Progressive Tory]

If the people of Saskatchewan were as upset, they sure didn't show it in October.

(I've spent time in both provinces lately. In NL, it's a blood issue. In Sask., it's-- meh-- politicking- not kitchen table important.)

Most of it was under Calvert. Brad Wall set a different tone.

Saskatchewan plans court fight on equalization

"Tim Cook

Canadian press

REGINA – If Prime Minister Stephen Harper wants a legal fight over the federal equalization formula, Saskatchewan and its NDP government will give him one, Premier Lorne Calvert said Wednesday.

The province will mount a legal challenge under the Constitution, arguing that Saskatchewan is being treated unfairly by the equalization program.

"I regret in some ways doing this," Calvert said in a telephone interview with The Canadian Press from Saskatoon.

"It's a poor way to run an country when a prime minister stands up and says `sue me,' because this is going to take considerable time. It happens when you are in this kind of circumstance where you are betrayed by your own members of Parliament."

Edited February 4, 2009 by Progressive Tory

[capricorn]

We're not talking about Dion.

PT, you missed the point completely. Contrary to your insinuation that only the Conservative party disciplines MPs, I provided a link to show the Liberal party has also taken such action. If you could just set aside Ignatieff's bio for a moment and read the posts more carefully before you reply.

[madmax]

I think the correct term is delusional.

Call it what you wish. I understand that there are people spinning yarns about Iggy both for and against.

[madmax]

We cannot trust the Liberals after getting in bed with separatists and the hard left socialists. What would they give Quebec if in power? Would Layton have a seat in cabinet as a confidant?

Yes, much better to trust the CPC to put a Separtist in the Senate. The Separtist bed is ok for the CPC but not for the LPC?

Enjoy the budget.

[Molly]

PT... I know.

Sask grumbled, the provincial government rattled sabres.... it was promptly forgotten and the citizens voted Conservative.

Newfoundland reacted like a scalded cat, the provincial government became sworn enemies of Harper and minions; the kitchen table talk threatened to come to blows if the feds were defended, ABC was embraced and 6 Liberals were elected. (And they'll bring it up like NEP twenty years from now.)

[capricorn]

CTV's Bob Fife called Ignatieff's "one time" pass for Newfoundland Liberal MPs "a major blunder".

The Globe and Mail calls it a "two tier Liberal caucus".

TWO-TIER LIBERAL CAUCUS

Just who is running the Liberal caucus? For nearly two months, Michael Ignatieff has applied the strong hand that was needed to restore discipline and focus lacking under Stéphane Dion. This week, he ceded some of that strength to avoid a fight with a boisterous premier. In doing so, he has set a precedent that may come back to haunt him.

Mr. Ignatieff no doubt believes that allowing his six-member Newfoundland and Labrador caucus to vote against the federal budget - which all other Liberal MPs were expected to support in last night's vote - was a harmless gesture. The budget passes anyway, and the MPs will get to make a statement about an alleged $1.5-billion slight against their province. Best of all, they avoid incurring the wrath of Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams.

But this was not some minor vote on an obscure piece of legislation. It was a confidence vote on the federal budget - a document that will set the direction for Canada as it attempts to fight its way out of recession. The Liberals decided, behind closed doors, to support that direction. By allowing several MPs to publicly break with that decision shortly thereafter, Mr. Ignatieff has all but encouraged members of his party to challenge his leadership.

----

Mr. Ignatieff need not have threatened his Newfoundland MPs with outright expulsion for voting against the budget. Lesser forms of discipline could have been sufficient. But he should not have permitted them to chart their own policy course without consequence. Whether or not this proves to be a "one-time pass," as Mr. Ignatieff has claimed, it could have far-reaching consequences for him, for his party, and potentially for the country.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/National

If Ignatieff had more experience in Canadian politics under his belt and if he could look at situations through a political lens, he would have recognized the pitfalls of his decision. To some observers, allowing six MPs to vote against the party appears noble on the surface. But politics being what it is, reaching for the appearance of doing the right thing is not always the correct course to take.

No question, Ignatieff is indeed well educated and intelligent. Yet, if he lacks political skills will he be able to meet the challenges of the new life for which he returned to Canada? This was a major test of his leadership and political finessing. Will it work for or against him? Time will tell.

[Mr.Canada]

To some observers, allowing six MPs to vote against the party appears noble on the surface. But politics being what it is, reaching for the appearance of doing the right thing is not always the correct course to take.

Agreed. He should have forced them to vote with him and suspend them from caucus for a spell to show everyone he's in charge. Instead, he now looks like a soft touch who's all bark and no bite much like the little dog down the road.

[Moonbox]

I suspect most people will look at this as an exception. I anticipate no repercussions for this and I think people are just making a big deal about it.

[madmax]

I suspect most people will look at this as an exception. I anticipate no repercussions for this and I think people are just making a big deal about it.

If you are referring to the 6 NFLD MPs I agree.

[Mr.Canada]

If you are referring to the 6 NFLD MPs I agree.

He's setting a precedent is the problem.

[scorpio]

I've had it with Harper. I trust him more than Ignatieff and the Liberals but that isn't saying much. I'm hoping he steps down or announces he's done before the summer break this year, so we can vote in a new leader at this years convention.

, well then come over to the dark side.

[Progressive Tory]

We cannot trust the Liberals after getting in bed with separatists and the hard left socialists. What would they give Quebec if in power? Would Layton have a seat in cabinet as a confidant?

You're not still on that kick are you, after learning that Harper took their virginity in 2004? Wonder what he promised Duceppe to get him to join his coalition then? A seat in cabinet as a confidant? A lap dance? The possibilities are endless.

[Progressive Tory]

No question, Ignatieff is indeed well educated and intelligent. Yet, if he lacks political skills will he be able to meet the challenges of the new life for which he returned to Canada? This was a major test of his leadership and political finessing. Will it work for or against him? Time will tell.

In a week it will be forgotten. Newfoundlanders are very passionate about Newfoundland.

Avalon MP Scott Andrews: "I campaigned on this in the last election. I'm not going down the same road as John Efford [and] Fabian Manning. This is the same issue and I was elected to put Newfoundland and Labrador first, period."

Judy Foote, who represents the southern Newfoundland riding of Random-Burin-St. George's, told constituents in an email that enough people have contacted her office about the budget that she has sufficient "hard evidence" about the feelings of constituents. Foote said the correspondence she has received shows "there is no question the people of Newfoundland and Labrador want their representatives to vote against the budget even if that means sitting as Independents."

He would have lost them anyway. Their disapproval was a symbolic gesture. You have to respect elected MPs who are doing what they were elected to do. I would have been disappointed if Ignatieff had fired them.

[Progressive Tory]

I suspect most people will look at this as an exception. I anticipate no repercussions for this and I think people are just making a big deal about it.

They're grasping at straws.