Is One World Government Possible?

[benny]

I would oppose a world civil police force. That should be national. So your view of a world government and mine are quite different then. Your view seems to be just one central government. I'd oppose that. I'd be more in favour of a decentralized world federation. We seem to have very different concepts there.

It is too easy to associate one world government with centralization.

[Machjo]

Ok. So you argue that only the 'elite' can learn English and that government should promote esperanto to help out the non-elite. The trouble with this logic is the 'elite' don't care. They often already know English and are not that interested in learning something like Esperanto because it gives them no advantage. This, in turn, means the non-elite have nothing to gain by learning esperanto even if it is easier because the 'elite' will not use it.

You do have some good points there. So let's take a concrete instance. When King Sae Jeong chose a team of scholars to create the Korean script, designed to be easy for all to learn so as to spread literacy, the elites did oppose it for the most part. But a few devoted enthusiasts, mainly among the general populaiton and a few of the caring and socially progressive elites, kept it alive for about 300 years until Japanese occupation promoted Korean nationalism. Soon, it became a nationalist symbol since, unlike the Chinese characters, was truly a Korean invention. And then it spread quickly.

So, how would we emulate that with Esperanto or a similar language? Well, it's been created already and has already established a stable community of speakers. Now the only quesiton is what will be that 'Japanese occupation' that will push it to victory? I don't know the answer, but I think that even among the 'elites', some don't know English, so it might start with them:

http://www.ais-sanmarino.org/

[Machjo]

It is too easy to associate one world government with centralization.

I know. Most people who are unfamiliar with world federalism often don't understand that there are many kinds of world federalists. I'm a highly decentralist one.

[benny]

I know. Most people who are unfamiliar with world federalism often don't understand that there are many kinds of world federalists. I'm a highly decentralist one.

It is not hard to understand that a divided world comes from having different worldviews.

[Riverwind]

Soon, it became a nationalist symbol since, unlike the Chinese characters, was truly a Korean invention. And then it spread quickly.

An interesting example since it illustrates the strong connection between language and cultural identity - a connection that can only be formed if people use a language as their native language. That is why I think that a language which is only spoken as a second language cannot compete with languages that are spoken as a mother tongue and that if English is replaced it will be replaced by another language with a strong supporting culture.

[benny]

An interesting example since it illustrates the strong connection between language and cultural identity - a connection that can only be formed if people use a language as their native language. That is why I think that a language which is only spoken as a second language cannot compete with languages that are spoken as a mother tongue and that if English is replaced it will be replaced by another language with a strong supporting culture.

Governments that intervene in cultural matters will be suspected of imperialism.

[Machjo]

An interesting example since it illustrates the strong connection between language and cultural identity - a connection that can only be formed if people use a language as their native language. That is why I think that a language which is only spoken as a second language cannot compete with languages that are spoken as a mother tongue and that if English is replaced it will be replaced by another language with a strong supporting culture.

English is not my native language, yet owing to my fluency in the language and exposure to its people and culture, I feel that it is now an inseparable part of my culture. I feel the same about Esperanto. So I'm living proof that your theory is wrong.

Looking at it that way, since English is in fact much more difficult to learn, it's less likely to be seen as anything more than a tool by most non-native speakers, unlike a language like Esperanto that does allow for fluent expression for most learners, thus allowing for more intimate friendships than does English, which is limited to a kind of broken Pidgin for most.

[Machjo]

Governments that intervene in cultural matters will be suspected of imperialism.

Exactly. That's why the Italians have the word 'cocacolonizare', Coca-Cola colonization, in reference to American cultural hegemony. Italy, by the way, is one country whose government does allow Esperanto in schools. It's also interesting to note that when the EU had a vote on Esperanto to stand as the official default pivot language in the Europarl, 43% voted in favour. Right now, English is the unofficial, defacto one, yet no country supports making that official. I'd read of one meeting where some EU Parliamentarians refused to participate in a debate unless interpretation was available in their language.

So it would seem that in the Europarl, at least among those who do support one official language, Esperanto has gained more support than English. Those who oppose Esperanto generally favour official multilingualism.

[benny]

Exactly. That's why the Italians have the word 'cocacolonizare', Coca-Cola colonization, in reference to American cultural hegemony. Italy, by the way, is one country whose government does allow Esperanto in schools. It's also interesting to note that when the EU had a vote on Esperanto to stand as the official default pivot language in the Europarl, 43% voted in favour. Right now, English is the unofficial, defacto one, yet no country supports making that official. I'd read of one meeting where some EU Parliamentarians refused to participate in a debate unless interpretation was available in their language.

So it would seem that in the Europarl, at least among those who do support one official language, Esperanto has gained more support than English. Those who oppose Esperanto generally favour official multilingualism.

I think the best way to make English less hegemonic is to speak it from a French perspective.

[Machjo]

I think the best way to make English less hegemonic is to speak it from a French perspective.

[benny]

Just think about Gilles Duceppe's jouissance in Ottawa!

[Oleg Bach]

Any talk of world government will get you labelled a conspiracy loon. However, there are organizations promoting it. check out this website and share your thoughts.

http://www.voteworldgovernment.org/

So what's the purpose of "one world government"? Who's ambtion is this? Is it something that will bring about heavenly bliss for the planet? I think not - so why bother?

[Riverwind]

English is not my native language, yet owing to my fluency in the language and exposure to its people and culture, I feel that it is now an inseparable part of my culture. I feel the same about Esperanto. So I'm living proof that your theory is wrong.

And I am sure the people who speak Klingon feel the same way. However, there is a difference between people who have a passion for a language and people who see it as a chore. To be successful Esperanto needs an audience for Esperanto cultural products that can compete with the audiance for cultural products in other languages. I don't see it happening because Esperanto is a second language for everyone.

To be clear, I would change my opinion if a large Esperanto culture spontaneously developed and expanded because of the dedication of people like you. However, I think it would be wrong for any government to actively impose Esperanto on anyone at this time. Such actions would simplely force people to learn English AND Esperanto if they needed to work in an international setting.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Riverwind

[Machjo]

And I am sure the people who speak Klingon feel the same way. However, there is a difference between people who have a passion for a language and people who see it as a chore. To be successful Esperanto needs an audience for Esperanto cultural products that can compete with the audiance for cultural products in other languages. I don't see it happening because Esperanto is a second language for everyone.

To be clear, I would change my opinion if a large Esperanto culture spontaneously developed and expanded because of the dedication of people like you. However, I think it would be wrong for any government to actively impose Esperanto on anyone at this time. Such actions would simplely force people to learn English AND Esperanto if they needed to work in an international setting.

OK, you do have a point there. All change must be evolutionary, not revolutionary. I think from that standpoint that countries like Italy and the UK and others have found the right balance by simply giving schools the freedom to teach Esperanto should they wish to do so to fulfil pupils' second-language requirements for highschool graduation. Besides, many in Canada fail to learn English of French as their second language, so instead of wasting their time learning a language that's too difficult for them, why not give each school the freedom, should it wish to do so, and according to the availability of teaching resources, etc. to offer it as an alternative to English or French, especially to struggling pupils who don't stand a chance with the more difficult languages. That could be a start.

[Oleg Bach]

Paradise Lost

[Machjo]

Paradise Lost

[benny]

Guessing: It means that unity was a given only before our infamous Original Sin.

[Machjo]

Guessing: It means that unity was a given only before our infamous Original Sin.

Well, if you want to get religious about it, Zephaniah 3:9.

Or alternatively, look up the position of the sacred texts of the Baha'i Faith on the issue of a Universal Auxiliary Language.

[benny]

Well, if you want to get religious about it, Zephaniah 3:9.

Or alternatively, look up the position of the sacred texts of the Baha'i Faith on the issue of a Universal Auxiliary Language.

There is also the Tower of Babel in the Bible.

[Machjo]

There is also the Tower of Babel in the Bible.

Zephaniah 3:9 comes after that, and the Baha'i writings come much later still.

[Riverwind]

Besides, many in Canada fail to learn English of French as their second language, so instead of wasting their time learning a language that's too difficult for them, why not give each school the freedom.

As someone who has experience learning languages you should know that it involves a lot of boring repetitive memorization of vocabulary. That is true for esperanto as it is for any other language. For that reason, I don't think unmotivated students will do any better with esperanto.

You also forget that French-English bilingualism is frequent job requirement in Canada so motivated studies will likely stick with one of those.

[Machjo]

As someone who has experience learning languages you should know that it involves a lot of boring repetitive memorization of vocabulary. That is true for esperanto as it is for any other language. For that reason, I don't think unmotivated students will do any better with esperanto.

You also forget that French-English bilingualism is frequent job requirement in Canada so motivated studies will likely stick with one of those.

Compare:

I am Mi estas

You are Vi estas

He is Li estas

She is Shi estas

We are Ni estas

You are Vi estas

They are Ili estas

I am Mi estas

I was Mi estis

I shall be Mi estos

I would be Mi estus

Be! Estu!

Notice:

-as present

-is past

-os future

-us conditional

-u imperative

-i infinitive

monkey simio

simian simia

in a monkeylike manner simie

-o noun

-a adjective

-e adverb

suno sun

suna solar

luno moon

luna lunar

patro father

patrino mother

knabo boy

knabino girl

bovo ox

bovino cow

ino female

-in- feminine

bono good (noun)

bona good (adjective)

bone well

bono good

malbono evil

sana healthy

malsana unhealthy

mal- direct opposite

san/a healthy

ul/o person

ej/o place

malsanulejo hospital

jes yes

jeso affirmation

jesi to affirm

jesa affirmative

ne no

neo negation, denial

nea negative

nei deny

dek ten

unu one

dek unu eleven

du two

dek du twelve

dudek twenty

dudek unu twenty-one

I could go on, but I think this shows quite clearly that Esperanto is far easier to learn than either English or French.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Machjo

[Machjo]

Esperanto works on redundancy. It relies on set roots that can be combined without restrictions other than universally applicable grammar, capable of creating new words instantly. In fact, it's quite common for Esperanto speakers to create new words and others to understand their meaning chrystal clear even though they may never have heard the word before, owing to the fact that they can decyther the parts of the word. This redundancy provides the necessary repetition as new words are learnt, since they will often simply recycle already learnt words, unlike French and English that always have to teach new words.

[Machjo]

And if you knew a few languages, you'd likewise be aware that some languages recycle roots much more frequently than others thus allowing for greater root repetition over the course of learning new words and thus accelerating the learning of the language.

Had you known a few languages, you'd be aware that not all languages are equally easy to learn. Some can be much easier to learn than others.

[benny]

Zephaniah 3:9 comes after that, and the Baha'i writings come much later still.

Don't bet on the latest thrill!