The Anti-Immigration Sentiment

[Argus]

Hi Argus,

I have debated you enough on this topic to know that you are one of the best prepared posters on this topic, as such I will ask you for a cite on this:

There are only really five countries in the world which actually and actively encourage immigration: Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Israel.

I don't know if there's a cite which states "canada allows in more people per capita than anywhere else" but US immigration numbers are generally between 1 and 1.25 million people annuall. Us Immigration yearbook

Canada brings in about 250,000 people per year Annual report to parliament on immigration

The US population is just over 303 million people. Canada's population is 33 million. So they are a bit more than 9 times bigger than us, and allow between 4 and 5 times more people in each year than we do, depending on the year. To be equivilent to them, we should have taken in 165,000 immigrants.

Australia allowed in 143,000 people in 2007 Australia immiration statistics Australia's population is 21 million. Their immigration rate is thus higher than the Americans but lower than ours as a percentage of their population.

In actual fact, since I last checked, New Zealand has drastically increased its immigration levels, and apparently now surpass our own. But New Zealand, like Israel, has always been a bit of a special case. Almost everyone who immigrates there is in the skilled category, must have previously worked there under work permit, and their largest source country has always been the United Kingdom, followed by Australia and South Africa (where white flight continues) - which means considerably less social and economic disturbance than we get with third world immigrants. Israel, of course, only accepts Jewish immigrants.

[Argus]

You must, since prejudice hiding behind a slanted look at facts is a regular feature of your postings.

The notable feature of your postings is an absolute lack of facts, and lack of interest in facts. When you don't like the facts you simply ignore them and try to insult the poster - usually carrying over accusations from other topics where you behaved in a similar fashion.

[Argus]

You ask a question, then answer it right away...Hmm

Did you use those words? No, but you sure implied it.

"Dear Iggy, This is Not a Year for an Election, Harper created this mess so should wear it for awhile"

Go there.

I never said nor implied it.

[Argus]

This coming from the man who once suggested re-instating slavery.

I do indeed have both an imagination and a sense of humour.

Sadly, you have neither.

[Argus]

I forgot... Pointing the FACT that there more than just a few Canadian-born people who are grossly unqualified for the job they occupy or who can't use French or English properly even when armed with university degrees do not jive with your anti-iimmigrant bias.

That kind of statement is stupid, cliche'd and irrelevent. I'm well aware there are lazy illiterates in Canada. Your argument consists of "Well, there are lazy illiterate, stupid unemployable people who were born here. That's no reason not to bring over more!"

Which is moronic. There are criminals in Canada. Is that an excuse to keep bringing over foreign criminals?

Generation after generation, this great country of ours has been built to a large extent by immigrants....

Oh play me a violin, why don't you. I'm not interested in a past which has little to no relevency with the present. We were a large, empty country which lacked human assets. We remedied that problem long ago.

We were also a country which was largely uneducated and illiterate anyway. There was nothing especially wrong with bringing over masses of people whose skills reflected ours and whose work was needed. Their skills no longer reflect ours, nor are they needed, by and large. And they are a huge cultural problem in that many of our principal source countries have cultures which are the antithesis of the values we are trying to live by here in Canada.

PS: Before you come saying that I ignore your numbers... My problem is not with the numbers; I'd say it if I thought they were wrong. It's with the way they're ysed to promote anti-immigrant bias.

If you were smarter I would attempt to point out the difference between anti-immigrant and anti-immigration, but I won't waste my effort.

[Argus]

I wouldn't take these boards as representative of Canadians. My experience says the least educated and most ignorant spam internet forums. Afterall, unlike other public venues, the internet only requires a $10/mo connection and no credentials.

And you're here slumming, right?

Other than a few rednecks I'm related to via in-law, I don't know anyone that feels negatively towards immigrants. In fact, most seem to recognise the incredible dependence the Canadian economy has on them.

And if I asked you to back that statement up what would you do? Slink away?

[CANADIEN]

The notable feature of your postings is an absolute lack of facts, and lack of interest in facts. When you don't like the facts you simply ignore them and try to insult the poster - usually carrying over accusations from other topics where you behaved in a similar fashion.

The notable feature of your postings is the misuse of facts when they serve your prejudice, and the endless stream of insults directed at most people who disagree with you.

And the relationship with the FACT that, well managed, immigration has been, is, and will be an asset to this grat country of us is?

[CANADIEN]

I do indeed have both an imagination and a sense of humour.

Sadly, you have neither.

On the contrary, I find your endless stream of insults equally pathetic and hilarious. And without any relationship with the issue of immigration and anti-immigrant bias.

Edited January 13, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

That kind of statement is stupid, cliche'd and irrelevent.

. We agree on something, at last. That being said, my point in writing is that is stupid, cliché and irrelevant when the word immigrant is substituted to Canadian-born, not that we should let everybody who knocks at the door in.

Oh play me a violin, why don't you.

I'm not a musician, but id I were my violin would fit in well with organ rendition of "Immigration is bad".

I'm not interested in a past which has little to no relevency with the present.

I'd beg to differ on that, but I'll pass.

We were a large, empty country which lacked human assets. We remedied that problem long ago.

We were also a country which was largely uneducated and illiterate anyway. There was nothing especially wrong with bringing over masses of people whose skills reflected ours and whose work was needed. Their skills no longer reflect ours, nor are they needed, by and large.

I would be the last to argue that the sets of skills we needed 50 years ago are the sets of skills we need today, or that the skills we need today will necessarily be needed 50 years from now. And you won't find a si9ngle posting of mine arguing otherwise. At the same time, I believe that immigrant doctors who are driving taxi cabs should be tested to see if they are qualified to practice medecine here (btw, I take taxis on a regular basis, andI have no problem understanding the drivers' English).

And they are a huge cultural problem in that many of our principal source countries have cultures which are the antithesis of the values we are trying to live by here in Canada.

We've heard that one before... This used to be said about Irish immigrants, about Eastern European immigrants, about Jewish immigrants. about Irish immigrants, about Catholic immigrants. This used to be said even about non-iimmigrants; French-speaking Canadians and Aboriginals have heard it often enough over the centuries. In the 1920's, the same was even said in some quarters of immigrants from London's working areas.

Of course, this is not to deny the existence of cultural differences, or to argue we should accept everything. That being said, we have managed through the years to integrated the best of what immigrants had to offer to the fabric of our society. There are some who think it is no longer possbile, and some who won't even try (and yes, I am talking about both immigrants and Canadian-born); too bad for them.

If you were smarter I would attempt to point out the difference between anti-immigrant and anti-immigration, but I won't waste my effort.

Too late, I am learning a lot about the difference already just by reading you.

Edited January 14, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Argus]

And the relationship with the FACT that, well managed, immigration has been, is, and will be an asset to this grat country of us is?

Given we haven't had "well managed" immigration since Trudeau got elected I couldn't really say what an asset it would or would not be.

[Argus]

. We agree on something, at last. That being said, my point in writing is that is stupid, cliché and irrelevant when the word immigrant is substituted to Canadian-born, not that we should let everybody who knocks at the door in.

It's a stupid and irrelevent point no matter what you were trying to say. It's like saying we shouldn't reject a broken fridge we see at the store. After all, our fridge is broken too! So to be fair, we give equal consideration to buying the broken fridge as one that works.

At the same time, I believe that immigrant doctors who are driving taxi cabs should be tested to see if they are qualified to practice medecine here

You think a thirty minute question and answer session will be sufficient? How about we let them test their skills on you?

This used to be said about Irish immigrants, about Eastern European immigrants, about Jewish immigrants. about Irish immigrants, about Catholic immigrants.

No, actually it wasn't. Not to the same extent, and not with the same level of justification. We have never brought in this level, this number of immigrants from wildly differant cultures. In the past, the great majority of our immigrants were from the UK and spoke English. It was fairly easy for them to adapt to Canada, and their kids grew up as Canadian as anyone else. The Europeans who followed were different largely in that they had different tastes in food and spoke different languages. Their cultural value set was virtually identical to that which existed in Canada at that time. People who use this comparison from the past completely ignore the fact that we have never taken in this number of completely foreign people on a sustained basis. They also ignore the cultural factors of today's world which help them resist integration, like the widespread availability of newspapers, television, movies, magazines, and music from their "home", visits home, and the constant influx of newcomers from "home" into communities which might have little connection with actual Canadians.

But send their kids to school and they'll learn to be Canadians, right? But is that the case where the student body is made up of 70-80% immigrants and immigrant children?

Of course, this is not to deny the existence of cultural differences, or to argue we should accept everything. That being said, we have managed through the years to integrated the best of what immigrants had to offer to the fabric of our society.

What exactly do you think we should be integrating from Muslim cultures? Their attitude towards women, towards abortion, towards freedom of religion, towards censorship, towards homosexuals?

[madmax]

I find the immigration arguments interesting.

Many immigrants are interested in leaving Canada for better opportunities.

Many born Canadians are leaving Canada for better opportunities.

It isn't a crises situation but it is certainly a trend which is going to continue.

Why come to Canada for low paying employment and a high cost of living?

Why stay in Canada?

I am working with Indian owned companies that want to take skilled Canadians, and semi skilled equipment operators overseas to set up and work on the equipment that there own labour market is not trained for but will be capable of doing.

It reminds me of the English invasion of the 80s. When Thatcher started the de industrialization of UK industries, the equipment came to Canada. 1000s of UK workers came over and stayed here to operate the equipment and train Canadian workers.

[CANADIEN]

It's a stupid and irrelevent point no matter what you were trying to say. It's like saying we shouldn't reject a broken fridge we see at the store. After all, our fridge is broken too! So to be fair, we give equal consideration to buying the broken fridge as one that works.

You really don't get it do you? Let me spell it to you: it is, to use YOUR own words, stupid to have as a centre piece of an opinion on immigration something like:

(Argus @ Jan 10 2009, 11:37 AM) *

The crazy Indian woman on my floor, for example, who goes into a fit whenever someone asks her where the work was she was assigned, or the Trinidadian administrative assistant who no one was able to train the use of a personal computer (though she had no problem browsing the internet and emailing her friends all day), or the Lebanese guy who simply will not stop talking, and practically has to be tied to his chair to keep him from bothering his colleagues.

****

You think a thirty minute question and answer session will be sufficient? How about we let them test their skills on you?

Ok, OK, I'll admit. The word test was not the best choice here. But do you seriously believe that I would advocate recognizing foreign medical degree after a 30 minute test? I am talking about requiring them to prove that they are as competent as graduates from our universities, using the same tools we use when graduating medical students from universities.

No, actually it wasn't. Not to the same extent, and not with the same level of justification. We have never brought in this level, this number of immigrants from wildly differant cultures. In the past, the great majority of our immigrants were from the UK and spoke English.

And the Irish was considered lazy bums barely worthy of being called Christians.

It was fairly easy for them to adapt to Canada, and their kids grew up as Canadian as anyone else.

And this about the non-european...

]The Europeans who followed were different largely in that they had different tastes in food and spoke different languages. ]Their cultural value set was virtually identical to that which existed in Canada at that time.

Really? Want to go say to a German and a Polish immigrant, or an Italian immigrant and a Dane immigrant, or a Russian immigrant and a Dutch immigrant, that there a basically not that much difference between them culturally? Go ahead, they need the laughter.

People who use this comparison from the past completely ignore the fact that we have never taken in this number of completely foreign people on a sustained basis.

Completely foreign person meaning not European enough, right? Back to the absurd argument that there are not that much difference between various European cultures.

They also ignore the cultural factors of today's world which help them resist integration, like the widespread availability of newspapers, television, movies, magazines, and music from their "home", visits home, and the constant influx of newcomers from "home" into communities which might have little connection with actual Canadians.

There is not denying that factors influencing how well and fast immigrants integrate to their new country are different today. But the long history of ethnic newspapers, cultural associations, credt unions and financial organizations show that the recents are not the first to seek to maintain a link to their country of origin.

BTW, the point of the parralel between anti-immigrant sentiments yesterday and today is that those sentiments still exist, that their primary fundation is prejudice, and that those who harbour them have been and will be proven wrong by history.

But send their kids to school and they'll learn to be Canadians, right? But is that the case where the student body is made up of 70-80% immigrants and immigrant children?

Sounds like a lot of schools in Ukrainian communities out west in the 1910's and 1920's and 1930's. I'd say that plenty of their dscendants today are proud Canadians. Some with many of those whose ancestors attended Jewish schools.

What exactly do you think we should be integrating from Muslim cultures? Their attitude towards women, towards abortion, towards freedom of religion, towards censorship, towards homosexuals?

"The best of what immigrants have to offer" That's the exact words I said. I don't see the word culture in there. Each and every INDIVIDUAL who comes here and decides to make this land his/her land contributes themselves to it. And the best of who they are can only enrich the best of which each of us are.

There is a wide range of opinions on the place of women, abortion, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, the place and rights of homosexuals, both in Muslim communities and through out the population as a whole. Ethnic communities and religious groups are not monolithic blocks.

There is a minimum standard of behaviour that we can and should espect of newcomers, because we expect it from ourselves. At the same time, any opinion that can be legally held and expressed in this country can be legally held and expressed by anyone. People who call women whores unless they hide in the house, who shun homosexuals and who think of people of any faith as ennemies are not people I find bery likeble, forwant of a better term. But unless you want to make expressing those opinions a criminal offense for everyone, those opinions are not a sufficient ground for barring sooomeone from immigrating here.

BTW, ideas like micro-credit and interest-free loans, frequent in the immigrant Muslim communities, sound a pretty good idea to me as a way to help the pooreest among us break the cycle of despair.

Edited January 15, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Guest icbones]

We had a guest speaker at our recent Grandparents' support group, who is a prominent local attorney. He was there to discuss our rights, etc. However, when we least expected it, his attention changed focus. Maybe it was hearing of abandoned children or the fact that many of us are raising disabled grandchildren. I have no idea, but he started a rant about the future of the white race. He went on to say that immigrants in this country are having large families with 10 or more children, while white couples are opting for small or no families. We were being 'bred out' (his words)

We were all a little shocked, especially with the abrupt change in his demeanor. I learned that racism is alive and well in this country and was a little ashamed.

Canada is underpopulated and I welcome all newcomers.

Well, this one of the most naive statements I have heard about immigration. Canada is by no means under populated. While we have a large land mass, not many people want to live on the shores of Hudson's Bay. As for you welcoming all newcomers to Canada, good. You should now petition federal politicians to tax you and everyone that thinks like you to pay extra taxes to support all the ESL courses, hospital visits, welfare, incarcerations, court appearances, and all the other assorted immigration resettlement and assimilation programs that the Canadian taxpayer is now burdened with.

IMO every person applying to this country as an immigrant should have to pay for a complete pre-admission medical check-up, genetic work up, including finger printing retinal eye scan and criminal back ground check before their application is even considered. Anyone sponsoring someone for admission to Canada should have to sign a bond that they will pay for all legal and medical expenses that the person they sponsor accumulates. This means absolutely NO health care, legal aid, subsidized shelter, ESL classes, or any other benefits of citizenship to all newcomers.

[Mr.Canada]

Well, this one of the most naive statements I have heard about immigration. Canada is by no means under populated. While we have a large land mass, not many people want to live on the shores of Hudson's Bay. As for you welcoming all newcomers to Canada, good. You should now petition federal politicians to tax you and everyone that thinks like you to pay extra taxes to support all the ESL courses, hospital visits, welfare, incarcerations, court appearances, and all the other assorted immigration resettlement and assimilation programs that the Canadian taxpayer is now burdened with.

IMO every person applying to this country as an immigrant should have to pay for a complete pre-admission medical check-up, genetic work up, including finger printing retinal eye scan and criminal back ground check before their application is even considered. Anyone sponsoring someone for admission to Canada should have to sign a bond that they will pay for all legal and medical expenses that the person they sponsor accumulates. This means absolutely NO health care, legal aid, subsidized shelter, ESL classes, or any other benefits of citizenship to all newcomers.

A person after my own heart...well done and welcome to MLW. Don't let the socialists get you down, most of em are good fair people and fun adversaries.

[tango]

I wouldn't take these boards as representative of Canadians. My experience says the least educated and most ignorant spam internet forums. Afterall, unlike other public venues, the internet only requires a $10/mo connection and no credentials.

Other than a few rednecks I'm related to via in-law, I don't know anyone that feels negatively towards immigrants. In fact, most seem to recognise the incredible dependence the Canadian economy has on them.

I agree, trooper. In fact, this board is a particularly right wing haven, though some of us try to balance it. But you won't find the anti-immigrant sentiment on babble, for example.

I think the internet is a great way to share information and ideas. Prejudices are exposed to the light of day here too. We don't always agree, but we do often learn, even if it is just learning that others don't have the same thoughts as you.

[guyser]

Well, this one of the most naive statements I have heard about immigration. Canada is by no means under populated. While we have a large land mass, not many people want to live on the shores of Hudson's Bay.

We are under populated . Just because one doesnt want to live in H Bay means little for your argument.

As for you welcoming all newcomers to Canada, good. You should now petition federal politicians to tax you and everyone that thinks like you to pay extra taxes to support all the ESL courses, hospital visits, welfare, incarcerations, court appearances, and all the other assorted immigration resettlement and assimilation programs that the Canadian taxpayer is now burdened with.

The moment you petition for your pet projects, I will be right behind you to do the same. Immigrants pay taxes too you know, although perhaps not enough to cover all , they will in time en masse.

You might have kids, please send me the money I pay for your kids education.Thanks !

IMO every person applying to this country as an immigrant should have to pay for a complete pre-admission medical check-up, genetic work up, including finger printing retinal eye scan and criminal back ground check before their application is even considered.

For what purpose?

Anyone sponsoring someone for admission to Canada should have to sign a bond that they will pay for all legal and medical expenses that the person they sponsor accumulates. This means absolutely NO health care, legal aid, subsidized shelter, ESL classes, or any other benefits of citizenship to all newcomers.

That is pretty much what they already do . That the govt of the day doesnt enforce it is not anyones fault but the govts.

[Mr.Canada]

I agree, trooper. In fact, this board is a particularly right wing haven, though some of us try to balance it. But you won't find the anti-immigrant sentiment on babble, for example.

I think the internet is a great way to share information and ideas. Prejudices are exposed to the light of day here too. We don't always agree, but we do often learn, even if it is just learning that others don't have the same thoughts as you.

No way tango. This board is pretty balanced left-right with the scales tipping to the left slightly.

[tango]

No way tango. This board is pretty balanced left-right with the scales tipping to the left slightly.

If that was true, there wouldn't be anti-immigrant postings here. Centre and left Canadians don't do that and don't tolerate it.

[M.Dancer]

But you won't find the anti-immigrant sentiment on babble, for example.

You won't find anything on Babble that isn't approved of by Babble....posters who disent from the party line lose their posting priviledges......here on the otherhand, boneheads are encouraged to post to provide general amusement for the body...

[tango]

You won't find anything on Babble that isn't approved of by Babble....posters who disent from the party line lose their posting priviledges......here on the otherhand, boneheads are encouraged to post to provide general amusement for the body...

I've noticed that babble has had to lighten up a bit too.

I've also noticed that this board has become more open to alternative opinions.

Canadians, afterall, are really people of the centre. None of us has been well represented in the polarized politics of the end of the 20th century. However, today is the day when it looks like we really do step into the 21st century!

GO OBAMA!

[Mr.Canada]

If that was true, there wouldn't be anti-immigrant postings here. Centre and left Canadians don't do that and don't tolerate it.

If it's a feeling held by Canadians then it's important to discuss. We shouldn't back away from the tough topics because they make us uncomfortable. The topics that do are many times the most deserving of discussion.

[tango]

I find the immigration arguments interesting.

Many immigrants are interested in leaving Canada for better opportunities.

Many born Canadians are leaving Canada for better opportunities.

It isn't a crises situation but it is certainly a trend which is going to continue.

Can you please provide a reference to support you claim?

Opinion is not sufficient.

[M.Dancer]

If that was true, there wouldn't be anti-immigrant postings here. Centre and left Canadians don't do that and don't tolerate it.

I think immigration is open to debate and I don't think that it is as polarized as you think. Take the left wing union types and ask them how they feel about immigrants and jobs...take that arch German leftists, hitler, he didn't care for non germans....

[Mr.Canada]

I think immigration is open to debate and I don't think that it is as polarized as you think. Take the left wing union types and ask them how they feel about immigrants and jobs...take that arch German leftists, hitler, he didn't care for non germans....

Yep, that's the thing I'll never get. Hitler was more of left winger than he was right in much of his policies yet he gets labeled radical right wing.