Three Voting Recounts 2008

[kengs333]

What are you talking about man? There are no seats exchanged, just another count. Only if the count is way off will any seats change.

Well, apparently this one was:

Bloc wins by 102, but after recount loses by 69 to Liberals.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...rd-recount.html

[capricorn]

Thanks - things will imporve - my nephew killed himself the other day - he could not take the injustice and was an old man of 27 -

My condolences to you and your family for your loss Oleg. Keep the faith.

[scribblet]

It seems there were some irregularities in the voting.

http://www.thelinkpaper.ca/index.php?subac...rom=&ucat=1

Can someone help me out here, when there is a recount do they actually open the ballot boxes to recount, or do they just check and add the tally sheets. It seems to me the do the latter unless there is a 'judicial recount'.

[capricorn]

The Canada Elections Act gives the judge presiding over a recount the option of recounting votes from some or all of the ballot boxes, along with spoiled and rejected ballots - 259 of them in the case of Vancouver South. The results of the recount are considered final.

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...anIFiUJYq6ElIOQ

Obviously, not all the ballots were recounted.

However, Conservative candidate Wai Young said she was disappointed not all the ballots were recounted.

With such a narrow margin of winning votes, you'd think a judge would order that all ballots be recounted, even more so if there are claims of tampering/

[Bryan]

Ever notice the recounted numbers never match the initial counts? That alone is pretty frightening.

When you consider that some of the margins are that close, some of the allegations of tampering would affect more than the margin of victory, and that the recount number seems never to match the initial count, it is inconceivable to me that they would not do a full recount in those disputed ridings.

In the Dosanjh case, there were a maximum of 500 votes eligible to be cast for one particular poll, yet they counted over 900 votes, 800 of them for the winner. Doesn't matter if that is fraud or if it's just incompetent Elections Canada officials, a full recount is obviously required.

Also, it appears that CP (http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...anIFiUJYq6ElIOQ), and LINK (http://www.thelinkpaper.ca/index.php?subac...rom=&ucat=1) have different ideas about what the Vancouver South recount means now. CP says the judges decision to only count a sampling is his prerogative and his findings are final. LINK says that the narrow margin of 33 votes reflected in the partial recount meant that the full recount is now automatic.

edit:

I just checked Elections Canada's site. (http://enr.elections.ca/JudicialRecount_e.aspx). Vancouver South is having a full judicial recount, and it is automatic due to the adjusted margin being less than 0.1%.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Bryan

[scribblet]

That's what I don't understand, there are obviously errors in counting in numerous polls all over, any recount should be a judicial recount, ALL the boxes opened and counted.

I've worked on some elections and met some doosies I tell you, even one who's wife had alzeimers (she was working too) scary. This thing about taking names from the parties first is nuts, the parties don't check them bugt the riding has to take them. Besides I know in our riding there was a real shortage of workers, they had to advertise so took anybody. More scary -

[capricorn]

A Vancouver Conservative candidate who lost a federal election recount last week is appealing the result in court.

Wai Young lost the judicial recount to Vancouver South incumbent Liberal Ujjal Dosanjh by just 22 votes on Friday but Conservative party official Ray Leitch says she's unhappy that not all the ballot boxes were rechecked in the process.

Leitch says a lawyer for Young will appear Thursday in a B.C. Supreme Court to ask a judge to check every vote cast.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/525576#

There's a lot of chatter going on in various blogs about the election results in this riding. I wonder what's going on.

[capricorn]

Liberal Keith Martin's win is confirmed in the recount in Esquimalt-Juan De Fuca.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonis...db-c968be5c73e6

[cybercoma]

Liberal Keith Martin's win is confirmed in the recount in Esquimalt-Juan De Fuca.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonis...db-c968be5c73e6

Fuca-Ju-Tu!

[capricorn]

Pardon me. I don't speak French.

[cybercoma]

That's ok, neither do 67% of Canadians.

Edited October 28, 2008 by cybercoma

[capricorn]

The recount for Kitchener-Waterloo confirms the win by Conservative Peter Braid over Liberal Andrew Telegdi. All votes were recounted and the margin was reduced to 17 votes, down from the original 48.

http://news.therecord.com/News/BreakingNews/article/437263

The final two recounts are underway, Vancouver South and Brampton West.

http://enr.elections.ca/JudicialRecount_e.aspx

[scribblet]

Thought I'd put this out there for discussion as it seems to me this whole recount process is wrong, when a race is this close, every body should be opened and recounted.

We also need to improve the hiring and training process or election workers, however, in order to do that there needs to be a longer campaign period. The time allowed for hiring and training is far to short, not only that, but the process of having to hire from the parties first is a problem.

What can be done to improve the hiring, training and overall improve the procedures. I bet if there was a recount in every riding there would a huge difference in voting totals.

http://www.bluelikeyou.com/2008/10/25/just...plaining-to-do/

This is outrageous! Why wouldn’t every ballot box be opened in a recount as crucial as the one in Vancouver South?

Liberal incumbent and former B.C. premier Ujjal Dosanjh has retained his Vancouver South seat after a recount Friday showed he had won — albeit with a shrunken margin of 22 votes instead of 33.

The victory was confirmed by regional Elections Canada official Donna Ceele.

A disappointed Tory candidate Wai Young said she was disappointed because Associate Chief Justice Partrick [sic] Dohm, who was in charge of the recount, elected not to open all the ballot boxes . ..

What the…?

And to add insult to injury, Dosanjh is now pondering a shot at Stephane Dion’s job!

Is this how you run a democracy?

And where does the buck stop? With Elections Canada or Parliament? (Which should consider revamping the Election Act, BTW.)

http://www.thelinkpaper.ca/index.php?subac...=1%3E&cat=1

The LINK also reported that there were many irregularities in voting in the

riding with one particular poll - which had the maximum of 500 votes to be

cast, but allegedly had a final count of more than 900 votes with more than

800 allegedly credited to the Liberal candidate. Election Canada's

Indo-Canadian workers were also being accused of bias and improper conduct

at the polls.

[Sir Bandelot]

That is very disconcerting. I suppose in one way the use of computers would help to eliminate that problem, but it raises other issues.

I thought that all the votes were recounted anyway by an independant group after the election. (?)

[William Ashley]

That is very disconcerting. I suppose in one way the use of computers would help to eliminate that problem, but it raises other issues.

I thought that all the votes were recounted anyway by an independant group after the election. (?)

In Kitchener Waterloo the 70 Vote Victory by Braid was reduced to 17. Although presumably thousands of students who may have supported their own alumni were locked out of voting due to not having sufficient ID (as the election was called at the start of the school year and it can take over a month to get ID with the new residence.

[scribblet]

That is very disconcerting. I suppose in one way the use of computers would help to eliminate that problem, but it raises other issues.

I thought that all the votes were recounted anyway by an independant group after the election. (?)

Not at all, as far as I know there is no recount of any kind unless it's a close race, and then they don't open the boxes, they only check the tally sheets. After that, it requires a judicial recount, and then it may only be a few boxes

[capricorn]

Dosanjh's win was confirmed in the recount. The margin was reduced from 33 votes on election night to 20 votes.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sto...55-03ba0e97e754

I agree with scriblett that a recount should mean just that. Whenever the vote is within the range specified in the Elections Act (which is 1/1000th of the votes cast *), every vote should be recounted. It is in everyone's interest that all doubt be removed and a clear winner identified.

* http://enr.elections.ca/JudicialRecount_e.aspx

[scribblet]

I believe they only counted a small number of the boxes, perhaps a total recount would change that ?

[madmax]

I believe they only counted a small number of the boxes, perhaps a total recount would change that ?

How on earth is this acceptable? How do they pick which polls are counted. I find this totally unacceptable. What the heck is a "recount" if your not "recounting" the ballots.

Might as well just flipped a coin. It would, IMHO, be more fair, then the process described in this thread.

Count every vote.

[Mr.Canada]

How on earth is this acceptable? How do they pick which polls are counted. I find this totally unacceptable. What the heck is a "recount" if your not "recounting" the ballots.

Might as well just flipped a coin. It would, IMHO, be more fair, then the process described in this thread.

Count every vote.

Yep especially in a race so close as to less than 50 votes separating the two.

[capricorn]

In the first judicial recount, not all ballots were counted. Issues were raised that cast doubt on those results and an order for a second recount was issued. In the second recount all the ballots were counted.

The election-night margin of 33 votes was decreased to 22 votes after the first recount, and then to 20 by the second recount.

"We've counted 42,000 ballots -- it's the longest recount in the history of Elections Canada," said Ravi Hira, Dosanjh's lawyer.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sto...55-03ba0e97e754

About recounts. The Elections Act gives judges the discretion of deciding how a recount is to be conducted.

2.7 Conduct of the recount

The Act provides that a judge shall conduct the recount in one of the following manners:

* adding the number of votes reported in the Statements of the Vote

* counting the valid ballots, or

* counting all of the ballots returned by the deputy returning officers and by the Chief Electoral Officer, including the envelopes set aside unopened under the Special Voting Rules. [304(1)]

http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?sectio...only=false#p2.1

So judges decide whether to simply re-total tally sheets (statements of the vote) and/or to select ballot boxes and limit the count to those boxes. It appears that for the most part and for a variety of reasons judges opt for those options over recounting all the ballots. This is wrong on many levels. The Act should be revised to remove the discretionary power of judges and to define a recount as meaning a recount of all ballots cast.