My company hiring immigrants.

[Kitch]

Of course it's capitalism. But no one would support unbridled capitalism, no matter how conservative. Capitalism would also be served if they could hire people at a dollar an hour, you know, or if they could purchase slaves. Would that be a good idea for Canada?

I'm not advocating for capitalism... I have my own views about why it is a bad system (and it has little to do with money/economics).

All that I'm saying is that some people hold contradictory opinions with regard to the ability/right to succeed and who has that right. Not that I know this guy is one of those people, but it seems odd to want your company to not struggle but also not save money so as to prevent a struggle.

Given my views and the fact that things are unlikely to change much very soon, I'm all for a mixed market.

[whowhere]

Canada has what I call babyboomer age failure. We have a lot of boomers who become less and less productive as time goes on. Each one of these people requires 2 or 3 immigrants to be supported adequettely. Eventually it will be around 5 immigrants per boomer.

aha aha, The most useless generation to pollute the earth with their thoughts and attitudes. So what you are saying boomers require 2 to 3 immigrants to exploit and sustain a lifestyle they have not worked for nor deserve. Yes, eventually 5 because immigrants will drive down wages and working conditions thus requiring 5 to equal 3. Little Tidbit buddy 5 immigrants traslates into 5 votes for one of yours. It won't be long before they think creatively on how to get even with the debauched and depraved boomers. Such as 20% GST, A special sur Tax on RRIF if you are also collecting Canada Pension Benefits, Cancelling of health care benefits if you are outside Canada for longer than a "normal" period. Who knows these are just some ideas to make you pay for the retirement you did not work for. Trust me boomers will not be getting a free ride As we go forward in this economic adjustment, lessons will be learned, and people will be paying.

Hell, if the influx of immigrants is your answer, when they all arrive and their votes are all in place a party will have to emerge with the sole purpose of Printing Money. Whatever Canada's Currency Circulations is it will be trippleled and used in a way to preserve its worth for the benefit of every new "Canadian" that boomers seem keen to exploit and take advantage of. Once this money is printed, Canada's dollar will drop in value and the Cost of imports will skyrocket making them unaffordable to you boomer pricks. Of course Canada and this new party will have printed money to sprinkle into the economy to benefit everyone including immigrants not just the greedy, self rightous boomers. So keep watering down your voice with immigration and see where it leads you.

[Mr.Canada]

The government of Canada should offer some tax incentives to have more than 1.5 children, like they do in Quebec.

[Argus]

Thats a nice anecdote about Somalis. Talk about the pot calling the kettle smut.

Somebody else gives an anecdote, I can give an anecdote. When you stop jumping on others for doing the very things you do yourself, I might take you more seriously.

I will continue to do my own thing here whenever I feel like it, and add my own comments to these debates regardless of you questioning my point.

I didn't question your point. I asked what it was. I pointed out that an anecdote about one immigrant being a good worker is of no more relevance than an anecdote about an immigrant being a bad worker - which I'm sure anyone can relate.

It's as if you were saying "I knew an immigrant once, and he was okay" and thus dismissing everyone's demand for changes to the mass immigration system.

[guyser]

Which of course means, that if Mike were to ever encounter my Jewish-Italian self, he may have an aneurysm.

Bring the Cannoli's and the Gefilte Fish.

[Argus]

The government of Canada should offer some tax incentives to have more than 1.5 children, like they do in Quebec.

Actually, what we need is a serious national daycare program. And no one has yet come up with one.

Quebec sort of has one, but their system leaves much to be desired in that it leaves many people without daycare.

[guyser]

Our dept posted a position for simple administration and got over 80 resumes. We were looking for people to simply put papers in folders and fwd emails, and got over half of the resumes of people applying with more than 1 degree.

And yours was in the pile?

I'd hazard a guess that they skipped yours for the following reasons.....

no clue what's going on, cannot proficiatnly type emails, needs constand direction, misses work, and is a general pain in the *ss.

But oh my!! She has 2 degrees! One from Mumbai and one from UofT!!! Wow!

I would bet she can spell,and I would bet she can speak english.....on the other hand your command of, ah never mind, you get the point.

[William Ashley]

aha aha, The most useless generation to pollute the earth with their thoughts and attitudes. So what you are saying boomers require 2 to 3 immigrants to exploit and sustain a lifestyle they have not worked for nor deserve. Yes, eventually 5 because immigrants will drive down wages and working conditions thus requiring 5 to equal 3. Little Tidbit buddy 5 immigrants traslates into 5 votes for one of yours. It won't be long before they think creatively on how to get even with the debauched and depraved boomers. Such as 20% GST, A special sur Tax on RRIF if you are also collecting Canada Pension Benefits, Cancelling of health care benefits if you are outside Canada for longer than a "normal" period. Who knows these are just some ideas to make you pay for the retirement you did not work for. Trust me boomers will not be getting a free ride As we go forward in this economic adjustment, lessons will be learned, and people will be paying.

Hell, if the influx of immigrants is your answer, when they all arrive and their votes are all in place a party will have to emerge with the sole purpose of Printing Money. Whatever Canada's Currency Circulations is it will be trippleled and used in a way to preserve its worth for the benefit of every new "Canadian" that boomers seem keen to exploit and take advantage of. Once this money is printed, Canada's dollar will drop in value and the Cost of imports will skyrocket making them unaffordable to you boomer pricks. Of course Canada and this new party will have printed money to sprinkle into the economy to benefit everyone including immigrants not just the greedy, self rightous boomers. So keep watering down your voice with immigration and see where it leads you.

That is what you said.

I didn't say give them citizenship right away. I think a special immigrant class permenent resident is pretty good for the first 5 years or so. If they are stable after that they deserve to start naturalization if they are Canadian enough and for example a special term of naturalization may be transfering citizenship to sole canadian citizenship, perhaps for a reduced naturalization time eg. 5 years vs 7 years.

Immigrants add a lot to Canada. I think that if it wern't for bad budget choices by the Conservative government the debt would have been paid off by 2020, now it is seeming like them running huge deficits if they don't get removed from office first will push back debt being paid off to 2040, and this will totally kill the reason for the GST in the first place to pay off the debt. Now it has turned into just another tax to fund poorly budgetted governments and inflate them without running a deficit. The GST needs to go 100% to pay the debt off. Major steps need to be taken. Things get very ugly because the US is nearing economic colapse and by 2020 this should be more apparent. With the us Social Security System falling apart, huge veteran payment costs and serious environmental issues such as drought and pollution and domestic resource management issues.

None the less by need 3 immigrants I mean, due to the benifits the person has accumulated and the weak growth rate in canada 3 immigrants are needed to maintain the economy at that level. Regardless of what you may think, immigrants ADD to the economy not detract, thus more is better. the 5 immigrants will be needed when they actually retire, this is for health care workers, the service industry, and a variety of other sectors. Since the boomers will not be productive in environment, and vast consumers and in poor health due to the habits of the generation - they will be a huge drain on the economy. the first 3 are to offset the loss of productivity the last two are to ofset the loss of the 3 immigrants, who end up maintianing the productivity of the consumption of the retired boomer.

The other option is robotics. But companies arn't funding those developments, and thus are only for the rich. Canada is not forward looking so it is setting itself up for failure. The Conservatives are only adding to this with their blind .. what we need right now .. policies.

As for daycare I think that they should extend elementary to ECD early childhood development to age 3 optionally. As far as Daycare, I think that this could also be put into schools, some already have inschool daycare programs. However some moms don't want to give their children to the state, and don't need to work because their man brings in enough bread to maintian their lifestyle.

It should be done through social services - the daycare that is. The ECD through the ministry of education, and be optional. There is arleady JKG.

Edited October 29, 2008 by William Ashley

[Sir Bandelot]

I didn't question your point. I asked what it was.

When you say, "What's your point?" that is questioning my point.

When someone in the thread says "Bring me a china man off the boat who can do what any skilled canadian can do you will find they are bellow mediocre." that is who I responded to.

No, I do not think that an isolated case of good or bad workers from china can be used to make a case, even a dozen is still an isolated case to me. That is my point. The poster should get off it, some chinese work well. The team leader shares an equal role in getting the work done, especially when the team is not willing to comply.

One person cites a negative example, one a positive one. When you jump on the negative one too you will have some credibility.

The question is, what is your point. Don't answer, I know and couldn't care less

[craiger]

Actually I stand to be corected. The problems I have encountered are not with Immigrants but Temporary Foreign workers. I manage crews very well when they speak english. Does not matter what race or color they are as long as we can comunicate, I also take great pride in training others. But why should I waste my time on those working with translators and all the rest of the bs when they leave after a few years anyways. I can train a aprentice in 3-4 years and then it's easy streak for the next 30 years as they are competant journeyman. I am getting so called "journeyman" off the boat that are about as useless as tits on a board.

[M.Dancer]

Actually I stand to be corected. The problems I have encountered are not with Immigrants but Temporary Foreign workers. I manage crews very well when they speak english. Does not matter what race or color they are as long as we can comunicate, I also take great pride in training others. But why should I waste my time on those working with translators and all the rest of the bs when they leave after a few years anyways. I can train a aprentice in 3-4 years and then it's easy streak for the next 30 years as they are competant journeyman. I am getting so called "journeyman" off the boat that are about as useless as tits on a board.

Easy Streak?

Tits on a board?

I ca see why translators would be a problem.

[guyser]

I cannot top dancers reply above.....however

But why should I waste my time on those working with translators and all the rest of the bs when they leave after a few years anyways. .

I dont know. Probably something to do with ....oh how about...you were hired to do a job and given the men to finish it?

[Sir Bandelot]

It didn't seem to be a barrier to the guys who used chinese workers to build the Canadian railroad a century ago.

http://archives.cbc.ca/society/immigration/topics/1433/

[Brunopolis]

That was a pretty well thought out response. I'll reply to each section individually.

There is something called "resource threshold" obviously canada would fill to its peak of support as needs based goods would rise in price until there was sacrcity. At which point people wouldn't be able to survive. Which may increase the crime rate. As long as we didn't deport immigrant criminals and instead sent them to works projects growing food and developing the north, I would think that there would be offset. However one would hope that those immigrating would improve the economy not damage it. Canada has what I call babyboomer age failure. We have a lot of boomers who become less and less productive as time goes on. Each one of these people requires 2 or 3 immigrants to be supported adequettely. Eventually it will be around 5 immigrants per boomer.

I agree with you in general on this point. However, their are a few issues with your comments

Firstly, Canada has a lot less agricultural land than most people imagine. Can Canada support more people? Definitely. It's just that the vast proportion of our territory is more or less useless.

http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps...ustries/mcr4022

Secondly, allowing immigration until we reach a "resource threshold" wouldn't be a pretty picture for Canada. It would work and immigration would eventually cease for the most part but our standard of living would drop immensely. Look at India, Bangladesh, and China for examples of those that more or less reached there "resource thresholds".

Also you can think that "if we just open the gates" obviouslly we need to be able to process people so there would be a set rate of entry. First letting people come in on a "temporary visa" that requires a deposit for return air fare back to their country. Each month they would pay a small fee to renew the temporary visa. If they manage to survive here for a few years then it would seem that they are stable and they could consider permanent residency and move to naturalization.

It is made out to be something bigger than it is. While it does increase needs, and potentially inflates costs. Canada has a lot of land, we just need to offer incentives for people to move to underpopulated areas, such as Northern Ontario and The North of Canada. For instance opening up Northern ontario would be a good first start.. opening up a few new settlements up there.

If we have strong border security to be able to control this then I definitely agree. As long as we have the housing and jobs for them. Currently we do but if we're to increase immigration then this should become a top government priority. I also agree with incentives for people moving to underpopulated areas. My solution would be changing the equalization formula to simply be tax breaks for those that live in small towns. The more remote the higher the tax break.

But no immigration is good as long as it is checked. This immigrant fear or hate really serves no purpose other than remove potentials for cooperation.

Also countries can draft laws to stop people from immigrating.. you just don't let them go - eg. no Passport, no travel. Countries can very much restrict travel of its citizens.

Even though the constitution of Canada says canadians can enter and leave the country. Without a passport it becomes very difficult, and a passport is not gaurenteed, you need to get someone to approve the passport. EIther by paying them, or by knowing people.

Also anyone with a criminal record in canada, by default is also potentially barred from their right to enter and leave canada.

---------

But yah that is exactly what you do, prohibit your skilled people from leaving the country - eg on grounds of national security, everyone who has been trained as a doctor is not permitted to leave the country due to skill shortages here. Special permission much be obtained to leave for the following professions etc... Failure to remain in country during the time of this crisis will result in jail time of not less than 3 year imprisonment. etc..

As for this last part I'll speak about a very personal experience regarding emigration and immigration.

My family originally came from Uruguay. During the Uruguayan dictatorship everybody was barred from leaving the country. Those that would try to leave risked jail or worse. Even with these "incentives" not to leave the country thousands of people left anyways and my family was among them. Here's a short little blurb about the dictatorship mentioning how tons of people left during that time.

http://www.everyculture.com/To-Z/Uruguay.html

Now in this situation a military dictatorship wasn't able to prevent people from leaving. You think a democratic government can manage to do this? The solution isn't simple but all I'm trying to say is that it's difficult for developing nations to protect their skilled workers from being snatched by more developed economies. Particularly when developed nations take advantage of the sacrifices that poorer nations do to train their work force.

I'd love to see Canada concentrate on the education of it's own people rather than rely on skilled immigration. If you look at that brain drain link I gave you you would see that the countries that experience it the worst are the ones that actually provide free university and college education to its citizens. Why cannot Canada do the same?

[Argus]

It didn't seem to be a barrier to the guys who used chinese workers to build the Canadian railroad a century ago.

http://archives.cbc.ca/society/immigration/topics/1433/

A wack across the back of the head with a club does wonders to instill energy in workers. It really doesn't require much in the way of translation.

Not really allowed today, though.

[Brunopolis]

A wack across the back of the head with a club does wonders to instill energy in workers. It really doesn't require much in the way of translation.

Not really allowed today, though.

That's not the only reason why language barriers weren't too big of an issue. The fact that the majority of the work done by these asian immigrants was manual in nature and language wasn't really needed at all. It was repetitive work done for thousands of miles.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Brunopolis

[craiger]

That's not the only reason why language barriers weren't too big of an issue. The fact that the majority of the work done by these asian immigrants was manual in nature and language wasn't really needed at all. It was repetitive work done for thousands of miles.

Now try translating a 4" think book of codes and procedures called ASME then another 4" think book called the CSA and drill it into some heads who were required to know this stuff in the first place. Then feel my fustration running a crew where you have hours to complete projects.

[Griz]

Easy Streak?

Tits on a board?

I ca see why translators would be a problem.

Some people never see that it is they themselves and their attitude that is the real problem. When you think about it--attitude alone has probably wasted billions of dollars in this country and probably the USA as well--some so-called grown men will just never grow up

[Brunopolis]

Some people never see that it is they themselves and their attitude that is the real problem. When you think about it--attitude alone has probably wasted billions of dollars in this country and probably the USA as well--some so-called grown men will just never grow up

Well the real problem is why are we bringing over so many "skilled" immigrants that have trouble with the language. Are we that desperate? We should be spending our money to educate our own work force rather than rely on foreign countries to do it for us. The only problem is that increased costs on the tax payers would make this option unpalatable for many.